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ABP India Summit 2023: Javed Akhtar Saw "No Visible Poverty" in Lahore, Pakistan

Whe I visited pindi at a particular part of the city, a busy road I saw a group of poor individuals begging who looked similar. I was informed they are from the same family and made it as a business to beg.
 
There are contrasting sources as to the origin of Ghazi Malik.
but only one stands up to scrutiny rest do not , that's why it's the best one
However, majority of the sources states that he was of non-local origin.
Nope - tughlaqnama is the original source and he was born in Punjab around dipalpur area according to amir khusro who wrote his biography when he was alive
Tughluq's court poet Badr-i Chach attempted to find a Sassanid genealogy which was also the official position of the Delhi Sultanate.
And
"However this can be dismissed as flattery. This is clear from the fact that another courtier Amir Khusrau, in his Tughluq Nama, states that Tughluq described himself as an unimportant man ("awara mard") in his early career. Tughlaq Nama declares Tughlaq to have been a minor chief of humble origins"

Another red flag
"Tughluq's court poet Badr-i Chach attempted to find"

If he was thier won't be a need to "attempt "
The contemporary Moroccan traveler Ibn Batuta states that Tughluq belonged to the Qarauna tribe of Turks.
And it was wrong too

"but the claim is not corroborated by any other contemporary source"

B- they're a Mongol tribe not a turk one
"who are mentioned by the Rauzatus Safa and Wassat as a Mongol tribe"

He hated the mongols- he wanted thier served to him and defeated the mongols 22 times
GridArt_20230301_234605544 (1) (1).jpg

- he can't be self hating Mongol , can he?
There is another theory that he was the son of a Turkish slave the earlier emperor Balban and Jat mother.

And that too is a wrong theory
A- " although this claim is contested due to the lack of contemporary accounts which supports this claim"

B- "supports Amir Khusrau's (again this is the trustworthy source as he wrote all of that during Ghazi Maliks reign) assertion that Tughluq was not a Balbanid slave, because he was not part of the old Sultanate household or the nobility of Balban"

So it's very difficult to truly understand his origin but it's still very unlikely for him to be a local because the political climate at that time tended to favor the Turks/Persians/Mongols, basically all non-Indians.
This is where you are wrong
What's 100% true is that he was carried to his throne by khokhar tribesmen - that's not contested by anyone

If the climate didn't favor them how did they become powerful enough to literally change a King of the Delhi sultanate without any involvement from Turks, Persians, mongols etc - makes no sense

This doesn't say much, any non-Indian too can be the chieftain of a tribe. There's also no clear mention of the tribe's name.
He was born in dipalpur or that general area according to tughlaqnama - no turk tribe was living there except for punjabi tribes, turk tribes only mixed into Afghanistan that too much later than the time period of Malik

So that tribe had to be a native tribe, as no other tribe existed in that general region - his tribe wasn't mentioned cause it was not a powerful clan and probably died - 100s of clans have died out in the region so that's not exactly weird

There have been multiple instances ballads for rulers have been written in a language which unintelligible for the ruler. The language of administration under the Tughlaqs was Persian, not Punjabi. Did he promote Punjabi? Nope.
Amir khusro was a Persian, Punjabi was far from his language, according to you Ghazi Malik was Turk or something

First vaar poem that amir khusro wrote to honor his victory was in Punjabi - why would he do that

You're marahati, your poet is a Persian, your court language is Tamil

First poem to honor you - is in bangali - does that make any sense to you?

Btw court language doesn't matter, Persian was court language of every empire for so long even non Muslim one's sometimes
He probably lived in Dipalpur for long enough to love that place.
He was born in dipalpur or that general vicinity
Like the Mughals loved Delhi. In those days, there were no planes using which they could go to their native place at will even though they could be 2nd or 3rd gen migrants.

However, based on this text, it's highly likely he wasn't a Mongol.
Yes he wasn't a Mongol and he wasn't a turk either as he had to adopt a turk name- he was original Turk he wouldn't a name
Many Rajputs too supported different dynasties in Delhi. So it hardly matters from whom he got the support. The different tribes will support the person who might look after their interests, that's it.
True
Again, a very tenuous argument. Yes, Fariduddin Ganjshakar (Baba Farid) was a Punjabi but he was part of the Chishti Sufi order. His own spiritual mentor of the Chishti order was Qutbuddin Bakhtiar Kaki who was born in Fergana Valley. His spiritual successor was Nizamuddin Auliya who was of Sayyid ancestry.
It wasn't just respect

They held all of Thier coronation ceremonies in his shrine, they didn't have a crown - they had dastaar bandi - that's a Sufi tradition specific to this region

Why would a turk do that?
The earlier Delhi rulers such as Iltutmish too patronized the Sufi order before Baba Farid. So there's nothing special about Tughlaqs patronizing a 'Punjabi' saint because he's actually patronizing the Sufi order which the earlier Delhi rulers too had done.

To sum it up, with the data that we have, it would be a big stretch to assume that Ghazi Malik was a local. There's just no explicit mention anywhere about Ghazi Malik being of local origin. Nor did he want to associate his origin with the local people.
Of all the theories this one's makes the most sense and claims line up unlike the Balban Turk, Mongol claim's, new arrival with jalal ud din etc - all of these claims have some issues that don't line up- this one everything lines up this is the right one

"However, this genealogical link with the Punjab paved the way for several other linkages, such his brother's marriage with the daughter of a Punjabi Bhatti chief, the patronization of the Sufi shrine of Pakpattan, and the support of Punjabi Khokhar tribesmen who were central to Ghazi Malik's rise to monarchy. Tughlaq's court poet, Amir Khusro, wrote a war ballad in the Punjabi language for the Sultan, the Vaar, describing his rise to the throne against Khusrau Shah.This was the earliest known Vaar in Punjabi poetry. The later leading Tughlaq Sultans also continued to merge the symbols of the Baba Farid shrine and the royal court by weaving the Punjabi Muslim Dastar-bandi ceremony with succession to the throne"

There's literally no reason for a turk to do that except the fact he wasn't one
 
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There is a possibility that Afghanistan's lower rate of cousin marriages may have something to do with this (infant mortality).
In U.K.:
  • For most ethnic groups, immaturity-related conditions are the main cause of infant mortality, however, for Bangladeshi and Pakistani ethnic groups the main cause is congenital anomalies.
Really sonny in Afghan culture cousin marriage is less common then Pakistan??

Talk about WhatsApp university
 
Giyath al din Tughlaq name itself is a corrupted form of "Qutlugh".

His famous quote was “that my bow and arrow is my throne

Qutlugh was a direct descendant of Chenghiz Khan (Mongol).

Truth is that his origin is in dispute, but he clearly wanted to show himself as Mongol, that too of Royal descent. Probably to get supporters to his claim on the throne.
 
Giyath al din Tughlaq name itself is a corrupted form of "Qutlugh".
Firishta claims that it is a corruption of the Turkic term Qutlugh,

but this is doubtful. Literary, numismatic and epigraphic evidence makes it clear that Tughlaq was not an ancestral designation, but the personal name of the dynasty's founder Ghazi Malik.

Historians use the designation Tughlaq to describe the entire dynasty as a matter of convenience, but to call it the Tughlaq dynasty is inaccurate, as none of the dynasty's kings not used Tughlaq as a surname: only Ghiyath al-Din's son Muhammad bin Tughluq called himself the son of Tughlaq Shah ("bin Tughlaq"
His famous quote was “that my bow and arrow is my throne

Qutlugh was a direct descendant of Chenghiz Khan (Mongol).

Truth is that his origin is in dispute, but he clearly wanted to show himself as Mongol, that too of Royal descent. Probably to get supporters to his claim on the throne.
He defeated the mongols 22 times and this is what he had to say about mongols, he was famous for his Mongol hatred lmao
GridArt_20230301_234605544 (1) (1) (1).jpg


Nor did he officially ever claimed to be mongol or for that matter a Turk

His name was ancestral name was Ghazi Malik - ghias ud whatever was his courtname, not ancestral one
 
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. Probably to get supporters to his claim on the throne.
No one supported his claim to the throne except for khokhars

They were the one's who conquered Delhi for him, upon conquering the city khokhar clan chief symbolically tied a turban upon Ghazi Maliks head and declared him the ruler of Delhi sultanate

No one other than them supported his rise to the throne - his army was exclusively made up of mostly Punjabis from his fiefdom in Punjab and khokhar tribesmen
 
Really sonny in Afghan culture cousin marriage is less common then Pakistan??

Talk about WhatsApp university
1920px-Global_prevalence_of_consanguinity.svg.png

Afghanistan​

Consanguineous marriages are legal and relatively common in Afghanistan. The proportion of consanguineous marriages in the country stands at 46.2%, with significant regional variations ranging from 38.2% in Kabul province to 51.2% in Bamyan province.

Pakistan​

In Pakistan, cousin marriage is legal and common. Reasons for consanguinity are economic, religious and cultural. Data collected in 2014 from the Malakand District of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Province (KPK), Pakistan showed that around 66.4% of marriages among rural couples were to a first or second cousin. In some areas, higher proportion of first-cousin marriages in Pakistan has been noted to be the cause of an increased rate of blood disorders in the population.
 
I wonder whether Javed Akhtar visited interior Sindh and Balochistan.

Why you are using Bigger and bold fonts...does it make your post more sounding ?

I guess this is the proof that Pakistan has a vast undocumented economy and conditions aren't as bad as they're made out to be. I have seen the glamour of the elites of Lahore (they have good housing authorities, access to hormone replacement therapy and many more first world amenities), but never the poverty of Lahore. It seems all the poor people of Pakistan live in Peshawar, Karachi and other cities where documentaries show orphan children roaming in the streets and gun violence.

This is true.

actually lahoris live in a mind set " Aag Lagey basti mein ....lahori apni masti mein"
 
Why you are using Bigger and bold fonts...does it make your post more sounding ?
Because there is no reverse video blinking and scrolling with an accompanying siren sound like in 1998.
 

Famous Indian writer and poet Javed Akhtar told his audience at a conference in New Delhi that he saw "no visible poverty" in Lahore during his multiple visits to Pakistan over the last three decades. Responding to Indian novelist Chetan Bhagat's query about Pakistan's economic crisis at ABP's "Ideas of India Summit 2023" in Mumbai, Akhtar said: "Unlike what you see in Delhi and Mumbai, I did not see any visible poverty in Lahore". This was Akhtar's first interview upon his return to India after attending "Faiz Festival" in Lahore, Pakistan.

Javed Akhtar at ABP Ideas Summit in Mumbai

Chetan Bhagat began by talking about high inflation, low forex reserves and major economic crisis in Pakistan and followed it up by asking Javed Akhtar about its effects he saw on the people in Pakistan. In response, Akhtar said, "Bilkul Nahin (Not at all). In India you see poverty right in front of you, next door to a billionaire. Maybe it is kept back of the beyond. Only some people are allowed to enter certain areas. But you don't see it (poverty) on the streets. In India, it is right in front of you...amiri bhi or gharibi bhi (wealth and poverty). Sare kam apke samne hain (It's all in front of you). Wahan yeh dekhai nahin deta (you don't see it in Pakistan)".

Disappointed by the response, Bhagat suggested that the Indian visitor could have been guided by his hosts through certain routes where he couldn't see any poverty. Javed Akhtar then said "it's not possible to hide poverty. I would have seen at least a "jhalak" (glimpse) of it as I always do in Delhi and Mumbai....I have been to Pakistan many times but I have not seen it".

What Javed Akhtar saw and reported recently is obviously anecdotal evidence. But it is also supported by hard data. Over 75% of the world's poor deprived of basic living standards (nutrition, cooking fuel, sanitation and housing) live in India compared to 4.6% in Bangladesh and 4.1% in Pakistan, according to a recently released OPHI/UNDP report on multidimensional poverty. Here's what the report says: "More than 45.5 million poor people are deprived in only these four indicators (nutrition, cooking fuel, sanitation and housing). Of those people, 34.4 million live in India, 2.1 million in Bangladesh and 1.9 million in Pakistan—making this a predominantly South Asian profile".





The UNDP poverty report shows that the income poverty (people living on $1.90 or less per day) in Pakistan is 3.6% while it is 22.5% in India and 14.3% in Bangladesh. In terms of the population vulnerable to multidimensional poverty, Pakistan (12.9%) does better than Bangladesh (18.2%) and India (18.7%) However, Pakistan fares worse than India and Bangladesh in multiple dimensions of poverty. The headline multidimensional poverty (MPI) figure for Pakistan (0.198) is worse than for Bangladesh (0.104) and India (0.069). This is primarily due to the education and health deficits in Pakistan. Adults with fewer than 6 years of schooling are considered multidimensionally poor by OPHI/UNDP. Income poverty is not included in the MPI calculations. The data used by OHP/UNDP for MPI calculation is from years 2017/18 for Pakistan and from years 2019/2021 for India.


The Indian government's reported multidimensional poverty rate of 25.01% is much higher than the OPHI/UNDP estimate of 16.4%. NITI Ayog report released in November 2021 says: "India’s national MPI identifies 25.01 percent of the population as multidimensionally poor".


Earlier last year, Global Hunger Index 2022 reported that India ranks 107th for hunger among 121 nations. The nation fares worse than all of its South Asian neighbors except for war-torn Afghanistan ranked 109, according to the the report. Sri Lanka ranks 64, Nepal 81, Bangladesh 84 and Pakistan 99. India and Pakistan have levels of hunger that are considered serious. Both have slipped on the hunger charts from 2021 when India was ranked 101 and Pakistan 92. Seventeen countries, including Bosnia, China, Kuwait, Turkey and UAE, are collectively ranked between 1 and 17 for having a score of less than five.

Here's a video of Javed Akhtar's interview with Chetan Bhagat at ABP's "Ideas of India Summit 2023". Please watch from 4:19 to 6:00 minutes.



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I am happy though surprised that Pakistan have no slums .
 
On this thread, Indians realise that Pakistan is indeed richer than India (at least for the average person)
 
I guess this is the proof that Pakistan has a vast undocumented economy and conditions aren't as bad as they're made out to be. I have seen the glamour of the elites of Lahore (they have good housing authorities, access to hormone replacement therapy and many more first world amenities), but never the poverty of Lahore. It seems all the poor people of Pakistan live in Peshawar, Karachi and other cities where documentaries show orphan children roaming in the streets and gun violence.

That is the correct analysis.

Pakistan is a poor country of rich people.
India is a rich country of poor people.

Our black economy is many times the size of the documented white economy.

An ill managed, ill engineered economy, which if managed right could put neighbors to shame.
 
1920px-Global_prevalence_of_consanguinity.svg.png

Afghanistan​

Consanguineous marriages are legal and relatively common in Afghanistan. The proportion of consanguineous marriages in the country stands at 46.2%, with significant regional variations ranging from 38.2% in Kabul province to 51.2% in Bamyan province.

Pakistan​

In Pakistan, cousin marriage is legal and common. Reasons for consanguinity are economic, religious and cultural. Data collected in 2014 from the Malakand District of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Province (KPK), Pakistan showed that around 66.4% of marriages among rural couples were to a first or second cousin. In some areas, higher proportion of first-cousin marriages in Pakistan has been noted to be the cause of an increased rate of blood disorders in the population.
Oh so for Pakistan they are using data collected from just one District of mostly tribal population
Not even a complete province and compare it to multilocular survey of Afghanistan

Talk about lopsidedness
 
Views from a pakistani who actually VISITED and Toured India a week back.

Anecdotal vignettes, while interesting, are not very helpful in benchmarking large complex nations. This author seems to be an expert social scientist and he has written about comparative development.

The depth of India’s strategic vision​

 

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