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A cultural discussion : Indo-Japanese historical relationship

Lets talk about Buddhism.

Buddhism went Japan and it evolve into a very different form. The Zen Buddhism which help the Bushi to be brave. Some Japanese monk also engage in fcuking to enlightenment.

I believe China used to have sex buddhism but Han Chinese prude cannot accept it. It got extinct in China. But in Japan sex monk are revered.

Ikkyū - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Lets talk about Buddhism.

Buddhism went Japan and it evolve into a very different form. The Zen Buddhism which help the Bushi to be brave. Some Japanese monk also engage in fcuking to enlightenment.

I believe China used to have sex buddhism but Han Chinese prude cannot accept it. It got extinct in China. But in Japan sex monk are revered.

Ikkyū - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


There is no pure Buddhism in Japan. Japan incorporated parts of Mahayana Buddhism and merged it with the State Religion, which is Shinto. Most Japanese cater to the Shinto culture, even if they don't necessarily practice it totally. Even the Christians, Muslims in Japan adhere to the Shinto Culture of Japan.

In regards to Buddhism, Zen Buddhism , merged with Shinto because Buddhism preaches mercy and enlightenment as compared to the the more obeisant-focus of Shintoism.
 
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AIT is a lie. It was a gradual migration not an invasion, and they were Central Asians not Europeans. Had they been Europeans coloured eyes and hair would be MUCH more common in South Asia.
 
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Pakistanis are the true inheritors of all kind civilizations which were present inside the current territory of Islamic republic of Pakistan and no one can question your claims. But Harappan Civilization was not limited to current day Pakistani territory but 40% of it extended to "Republic of India". We are only claiming the part of Harappan Civilization which is inside the territory of present day India. You should be aware of the fact that certain civilizations are not limited one particular country but extends over many.
See this map for yourself. Nearly 40% of it are inside the "present day India". Now here after don't claim any mighty Empires like Mughal which were all Delhi based empires as something related to Pakistan just because some of it's rulers follower Muslim faith.


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Considering the fact that Ancient Tamil has been in use for nearly 4000 years it is possible that that it had some ( or very little) influence on Japanese language but saying that Tamils traveled some 7000 kms to spread Tamil in Japan is historically inaccurate and not supported by kind of evidence. The Altaic Theory seems more credible and are supported by wide range of evidence.

I never claimed anything in India and never will. I posted links to Harappa ( Pakistan ) Mohenjo Daro ( Pakistan ) Sirkap ( Pakistan ). Pakistan and the Indus basin have the lion share of the historical sites from past. Why bother with bronze when you have gold?

I have no further intent to derail this thread other than remind people Harappa, Mohenjo Daro are in Pakistan.
 
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Hey buddy! Glad to see you're back ! Good to see your participation in this thread. :)

Glad to be back! Hopefully I don't get banned trying to fight ignorance.


Like I was saying AIT is the highest most accepted form of cultural appropriation. Aryans migrated to India, interbred and out came baby East West's Grand^(nth)father. No person is truly indigenous to the land. In regards to the caste system that racist brings up or other ignorant people do, it has nothing to do with ethnicity and was very fluid until final compilation of the Rig Veda in 1600 BCE.
 
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@Nihonjin1051

Please accept my apology but before I vacate from this thread now that Levina has been threatened on me I would like the map below to be included in the context of the map of IVC sites which itself I would argue has some dubious information on it. However overlooking that people will notice it in fact is zeroed onto Pakistan and not India as can be seen from the red box below.

This would be like discussing and singing about Japan while you have your camera primarily pointed toward Korea with most of Japan out of the frame. All the while singing about Japan but with contrived effort ignoring the mention of the name Korea - Any defence on the grounds of non existance of the term Pakistan being baseless because in context of Harappa 5,000 years ago the name India was also non existant along with most of the worlds names ....

Strange ..

bAX6Pwk.jpg
 
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Some more of our boys gobbling up this lamb curry dish !

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;)



Well i never knew about that, Azizam ! Perhaps its because of the location? Well has there been close contacts between Tamil and Sinhala people over the thousands of years?
The food even the steel plate on which food served is common for a Indian particularly in eastern and southern states.

dalma.jpg
 
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A. Is there a linguistic link ?


For years I have been watching from the sidelines as the opponents battle it out. For the players this fight will go on and on, and the theater of war is right here.

This is a linguistic war, but it naturally involves archaeology, history, religion and a host of wounded egos. The question to be decided is: What exactly are the origins of the Japanese language?

It has generally been accepted by most scholars that Japanese is an Altaic language, derived from a tongue that originated on the steppes of Asia and migrated in various directions, evolving into Turkish, Mongolian and Korean. Structural similarities among these languages seem to support this.

But there was also migration to Japan from the south, through the islands of the Ryukyu chain. Ryukyuan, in its various forms, is the only language closely related to Japanese. The input from Polynesia into Japanese seems to be evident, particularly in the dominance of vowels and the use of the repetitive plural (yamayama for “mountains,” hitobito for “people,” etc.)

But then Susumu Ohno, a renowned linguist and classicist, came along and popularized the theory that Japanese was overwhelmingly influenced by Dravidian languages, particularly Tamil, brought to these shores some 2,000 years ago during the Yayoi Period (500 B.C. to 300 A.D.), when the Japanese began rice-paddy cultivation.

Ohno made his claim for the predominant influence of Tamil on the Japanese vocabulary nearly 30 years ago. (He was not the first to do this, but soon became the theory’s pre-eminent advocate.) As you can imagine, it was roundly attacked by both traditional Japanese linguists and at least one famous Tamil scholar.

Muneo Tokunaga, the latter, denounced Ohno’s ignorance of Tamil in 1981 and wrote, “I find absolutely no scholarly value in the Ohno theory.”

But Susumu Ohno, now 89 years old, has persisted, last year publishing with Iwanami Shoten his book “Nihongo no Genryu wo Motomete (Seeking the Origins of the Japanese Language).” Ohno claims that many common Japanese words come from Tamil. He concentrates on so-called “Yamato kotoba,” or Japanese words that were in use before the introduction of the Chinese writing system. These words, according to Ohno, lend a depth to the emotional culture and the richness of the nonrational sensibility of the Japanese. He states, by quoting relevant cognates, that the following words are originally from Tamil: tanoshii (pleasant); yasashii (gentle); nikoniko (with a smile); tsuya (luster); sabishii (lonely); kanashii (sad); aware (misery); and even the now ubiquitous kawaii (adorable).

That’s a lot of sensibility in anybody’s book.

Ohno further asserts that some Japanese words for colors are borrowed from Tamil. These include the words for red, blue, black and white. Ordinary verbs such as hanasu (talk), iu (say), and sakebu (scream); the words for “thing,” mono and koto; parts of the body such as atama (head), kao (face) and ha (tooth); illnesses such as boke (dementia) — these apparently have similar sounds in Tamil.

Ohno strengthens his argument with comparisons in grammar, pointing to a similar absence of relative pronouns, a likeness in word order and a striking resemblance in the languages’ rhythms.

Now, one can find a host of similarities in totally unrelated languages. This simply attests to the fact that there are only a certain number of sounds that the human being can produce and that syntactic features are bound to overlap.

Russian has neither a definite nor an indefinite article, just like Japanese. This is merely coincidence. And, though I know no Tamil whatsoever, some of Ohno’s examples do appear stretched. I might take the Japanese word for bath, furo, and explain that in ancient times baths were dug into the ground. The English word “furrow” represents this to a T. Again, coincidence. Some of Ohno’s examples are of this variety. For example, he claims that the Japanese dialectal word maru, indicating urination, derives from the Tamil mal, which means the same. The Tamil word for belly button, pot-u, he believes, gave Japanese its heso.

His argument goes further than language.

“The changes brought about by the introduction of rice-paddy cultivation, the use of iron and the loom occurred in the Yayoi Period,” Ohno writes in “Seeking the Origins of the Japanese Language.” By analyzing words associated with these practices, he claims that they were introduced by Tamils who traveled the 7,000-odd kilometers from their home to Japan during the Yayoi Period two millenniums ago.

He brings up various ancient Japanese customs, such as those connected with planting, religious rituals and even nuptial rites. This is where Ohno, an acknowledged expert on Japanese classical literature, is perhaps on the most stable ground. In ancient times, a man courting a woman would visit her home for three days in a row. On the third day, her offering him a rice cake symbolized official recognition of her acceptance. This is referred to in the 11th-century Japanese classic “The Tale of Genji” as mikka no mochi, or “the rice cake on the third day.”

Ohno points to a similar ancient custom that is practiced in regions of India where Dravidian languages are spoken. Again coincidence? Perhaps. Given that there is no way — and there is likely never to be a way — to prove these things, such intriguing coincidence is all one may have to go on.

Words related to religion display similarities in the two languages as well. Kami (god) and agaru (to step up) are two of these. If Ohno is correct, then the popular notion that the kami meaning “god” derives from the kami meaning “above” is wrong.

Ohno does not dispute the influence of Polynesian languages, but places it earlier than that of Tamil. I am not convinced, however, by his thesis that the soft vowels of the Kansai dialect are the result of this South Seas invasion.

One has to admire Susumu Ohno for sticking to his guns. The Tamil-origin theory of Yamato kotoba is not one subscribed to by many scholars. With this book, he has indicated his desire to prove his theory with a feisty insistence.

But, whether Ohno is right or wrong, “the war of the origins” is bound to go on for a long, long time. Linguists love a good fight, and this one is as good as they get. The fact that there may never be an outcome merely adds to the furious excitement and the schadenfreude that experts derive from it.


Was the Japanese language influenced by Tamil? The war goes on | The Japan Times
I had read a similar article few years back and I had not taken it seriously.
Researchers find Tamil connection in Japanese - The Times of India

The linguist link can be attributed to:

1) The ancient relations between India and Japan:
Afaik, it was an Indian Buddhist monk called Bodhisena who spread Buddhism in Japan, interestingly we even have similar deities. For instance we have an elephant god called Ganapathy in hinduism, and I was recently shown a pic of ganapathy statue in a Japanese temple.

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This is at Auch Ganesh fand seinen Platz in Japan.

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2) Presence of loan words dont surprise me because not so long back the chola empire(of southern India) extended as far as Malaysia. So good trade relations with eastern countries was on cards, and ergo the presence of few loans words from Tamil in Japanese (or vice-versa).

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3) My logic tells me that other than a linguistic link we might not have anything in common, reason being this :)

3.jpg


@Nihonjin1051 I'm extremely sorry that the part of my post below this deviates from the topic. But as an Indian it was imperative for me to prove that we are not claiming anybody's history.



@Nihonjin1051
This is great news for us in Pakistan. Can you please tell this to the Indian Tamil's. They are all swamping Pakistan heritage by claiming everything from Indus Basin/Pakistan and this might turn their attention on Japan.
After they start claming Samurai, Sushi, Suzuki as Tamil we might get a break .......
Before I begin "post"-mortem of your post, let me make it clear that whatever I've written below should not be misconstrued as hindus versus muslims debate.
we dont need to hyphenate ourselves with anyone else sire!
We dont need to because we are one of the oldest civilizations in the world. Pls dont misunderstand this as my arrogance because we're taught to be humble. So I'm sorry if I sound so.

Let me also make it very clear that though you as a Pakistani might have inherited few of the SSC (Sindhu-saraswati civilization aka Indus valley civilization) sites geographically, you can't lay claim over it. The reason being that SSC lives through the hindus in India, we still follow the same customs and traditions that we followed 5000 years back. Prove me wrong!!!

let me show you some example

1) The swastika symbol!
we in India still use swastika symbols on our doors and in our rangolis. But how do you relate to this symbol???
The-Lost-River-Michel-Danino-001.jpg


2) The lord shiva statue. In the pic, the one on right was found in Harappa while the the statue on the right is a lord Shiva statue in tamil Nadu.
Lost_River_04.jpg


3) Shiva lingas found in Harappa are still used by hindus, each hindu house has a shiv ling.

Lost_River_05.jpg




The argument the Tamil make is that all of Indus Basin/Pakistan was Dravidian lands and then came along Aryan savages ( us ) and pushed and displaced the Dravids deep into present day India. Of course no ethnic cleansing is 100% and some became subsumed into the invaders ( that being the present mixed Pak population ) and those Brahui in Balochistan are the left overs of the past.

1) There was no Aryan invasion!!!
Aryans were nomads who came almost 500 years after the inhabitants of SSC had moved to ganges plains. The proof of this is the round hut like structures found in SSC sites. SSC ppl were known for making perfect rectangular houses and for building well planned cities.
2) We are not claiming your history, we dont need to. There's nothing that proves that there was an invasion on SSC sites. Hence your Aryan Vs Dravidan theory has no proof.
3) As far as Brahui language is concerned then I think anyone can do the 2+2 here...
Brahui is the ONLY dravidan language which is separated from its sister languages by thousands of miles.

3.jpg




Maybe need to call @levina.
I'm sorry for the delay in reply.
I was busy since last few days as it was my weekend.So I was mostly replying back to chit-chat threads.
 
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The food even the steel plate on which food served is common for a Indian particularly in eastern and southern states.

dalma.jpg



Its interesting , actually, how Curry made its way to Japanese navy's food culture. While curry is popular in Japanese cuisine, it is not as widespread , and have their niche in Society. However, in the Japanese Navy (JMSDF), Curry dishes is a staple. I say this as one who served in the JMSDF --- in the mess hall --- curry dishes are a constant. Such dishes included (from what i remember) : 1) Chicken tikka, 2) Curry lamb, 3) curry pork, 4), curry beef, 5) Butter chicken. Other dishes that i think are South Indian in origin include: 1) Curry fish, 2) coconut milk fish.

I don't think anyone ever researched onto the etiology of this...obsession the Japanese Navy has with Curry Dishes. But I would guess that it has something to do with the British influence. As you may known --- the Royal Navy had helped the Japanese Navy modernize in the late 19th century and early 20th century. And I think the Royal Navy served Indian cuisine openly and popularized it.

Curry Dishes also have the habit of lasting a long time without refrigeration , perhaps this was a factor?


Anyways some pictures:

:)

JMSDF CURRY FESTIVAL !!!

820JMSDF20Curry20Festival20Menu.JPG




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071020ohsumi008.jpg
 
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@levina

I am not going to prove anything. Shall I tell you why? You made a claim that your are the evolved product of IVC ( what in gods name is SSC anyway. Is that the latest plan involving the removal trucks to shift IVC to India? ) therefore the onus is on you to substantiate the said claim.

You see so little do we know of IVC and what little we know is speculative and subjective. Most of our reading is based on our projection on it then it informing us. That is our knowledge on IVC is entirely subjective and not objective.

Which is why Pakistani world class archeologist Prof. Ahmad Hasan Dani came to the opposite conclusions then you do. At any rate we also have another problem. The metric you use is religo-culture which by their very nature are difficult to fix being so amorpous. Then you through in 5,000 years and you end with space for so much distortion that potentially Eskimos could start claiming linkage.

In short your claim is so tenous, so weak and loose yet you talk with certitude. Furthermore it is bizzare that I who come from the land that gave birth to IVC and my people are being divorced by you who lives distal from the IVC.

That would like Koreans teaching Nihon his ancestors and as a double whammy have the temerity to claim that to themselves and claim Nihon landed in Nippon from Mars.

I told you before if my son converted to Shinto Buddhism, changed his name Osaka, married a Japanese girl and moved to Japan he would still have claim on my estate, my name and claim on his grandfather, his grandfathers lineage and heritance.

Please spare that right to my forefathers as well without you jumping in. Please click on the second link which deals with the Dravidian/Tamil claims. Click the first and third links to see Prof. Ahmad Hasan Dani's background. Thank you.

Ahmad Hasan Dani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ahmad Hassan Dani Interview Contents
Obituary: Ahmad Hasan Dani | Science | The Guardian
 
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@levina

I am not going to prove anything. Shall I tell you why? You made a claim that your are the evolved product of IVC ( what in gods name is SSC anyway. Is that the latest plan involving the removal trucks to shift IVC to India? ) therefore the onus is on you to substantiate the said claim.

You see so little do we know of IVC and what little we know is speculative and subjective. Most of our reading is based on our projection on it then it informing us. That is our knowledge on IVC is entirely subjective and not objective.

Which is why Pakistani world class archeologist Prof. Ahmad Hasan Dani came to the opposite conclusions then you do. At any rate we also have another problem. The metric you use is religo-culture which by their very nature are difficult to fix being so amorpous. Then you through in 5,000 years and you end with space for so much distortion that potentially Eskimos could start claiming linkage.

In short your claim is so tenous, so weak and loose yet you talk with certitude. Furthermore it is bizzare that I who come from the land that gave birth to IVC and my people are being divorced by you who lives distal from the IVC.

That would like Koreans teaching Nihon his ancestors and as a double whammy have the temerity to claim that to themselves and claim Nihon landed in Nippon from Mars.

I told you before if my son converted to Shinto Buddhism, changed his name Osaka, married a Japanese girl and moved to Japan he would still have claim on my estate, my name and claim on his grandfather, his grandfathers lineage and heritance.

Please spare that right to my forefathers as well without you jumping in. Please click on the second link which deals with the Dravidian/Tamil claims. Click the first and third links to see Prof. Ahmad Hasan Dani's background. Thank you.

Ahmad Hasan Dani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ahmad Hassan Dani Interview Contents
Obituary: Ahmad Hasan Dani | Science | The Guardian

You know what Mr.Ehty?
I dont want to make off topic posts on a friend's thread.

I request you to make a thread on this subject in senior's cafe (to avoid trolling), and there we can discuss/debate/argue in length on this topic.

PS:
I have not read your entire post as I'm using my mobile right now. But I would definitely take time to read it if you create a separate thread or tag me on a more appropriate thread to discuss this topic.
 
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IDK why pakistanis are claiming pagan stuff. IVC used fire and swastika worship. This is still the main form of worship in Hinduism.... what has all this to do with Islam. Pakistan was founded in 7xx AD when Bin Qasim came here. Pakistan got its independence from India in 1947.
 
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Jamaicains speak English, eat similar food as English, broadly follow similar culture, dress like English are mostly Anglican Protestant and many even have English DNA through the slave trade however that does not make them English. They can't start making claim on Stonehenge or exploits of Sir William Raleigh or British Empire ...

Going by your measure in 5,000 years your measure would have them as British as the Royal Family ...

Ehty ... Very funny .....

@AugenBlick

Jamaicans use cross at their worship and many latin words in Church. Does that make them Greek/Amharic ?
 
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@levina

I am not going to prove anything. Shall I tell you why? You made a claim that your are the evolved product of IVC ( what in gods name is SSC anyway. Is that the latest plan involving the removal trucks to shift IVC to India? ) therefore the onus is on you to substantiate the said claim.

You see so little do we know of IVC and what little we know is speculative and subjective. Most of our reading is based on our projection on it then it informing us. That is our knowledge on IVC is entirely subjective and not objective.

Which is why Pakistani world class archeologist Prof. Ahmad Hasan Dani came to the opposite conclusions then you do. At any rate we also have another problem. The metric you use is religo-culture which by their very nature are difficult to fix being so amorpous. Then you through in 5,000 years and you end with space for so much distortion that potentially Eskimos could start claiming linkage.

In short your claim is so tenous, so weak and loose yet you talk with certitude. Furthermore it is bizzare that I who come from the land that gave birth to IVC and my people are being divorced by you who lives distal from the IVC.

That would like Koreans teaching Nihon his ancestors and as a double whammy have the temerity to claim that to themselves and claim Nihon landed in Nippon from Mars.

I told you before if my son converted to Shinto Buddhism, changed his name Osaka, married a Japanese girl and moved to Japan he would still have claim on my estate, my name and claim on his grandfather, his grandfathers lineage and heritance.

Please spare that right to my forefathers as well without you jumping in. Please click on the second link which deals with the Dravidian/Tamil claims. Click the first and third links to see Prof. Ahmad Hasan Dani's background. Thank you.

Ahmad Hasan Dani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ahmad Hassan Dani Interview Contents
Obituary: Ahmad Hasan Dani | Science | The Guardian
You know what Mr.Ehty?
I dont want to make off topic posts on a friend's thread.

I request you to make a thread on this subject in senior's cafe (to avoid trolling), and there we can discuss/debate/argue in length on this topic.

PS:
I have not read your entire post as I'm using my mobile right now. But I would definitely take time to read it if you create a separate thread or tag me on a more appropriate thread to discuss this topic.

We must understand that losing Indus valley is the greatest pain in heart for Hindu.

Just like if China losing yellow river and now, russia losing Kiev.
 
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