27 Feb 19: PAF shot down two Indian aircrafts inside Pakistani airspace: DG ISPR

[DJ_Viper]

Hello @MastanKhan
Every thing is preset. I have no Idea about permission and the clear to shoot from the ground is a BS (what I believe) as soon as one of those engaged targets (Not a bandit yet) would have been a threat to the strikers or attempted to Cross the International border they would have been Amraam'ed.

Permission or no Permission.

I couldn't help but to jump into this. Very interesting thread with lots of opinions it seems.

Even for the USAF / USN, clearance to Fox is a must. This isn't WWII that no real tech exists, you can now track enemies from 100's of miles away. The only time there won't be a clear to Fox approval is when you scrambled hot (defensive), but IFF would still be needed and communicated / affirmed.

 

[BATMAN]

Hi,

Thank you for an excellent excellent post---.




Hi,

That is a mentality of incompetence on part of the Paf and of Low Self Esteem---.

The US police has a 21 ft rule---. If a threat gets into your 21ft circle of radius there is a good chance that you might die---.

If they get into 10-12 ft radius---then you may consider yourself dead---.

On the civilian side---a person can claim self defense when the other person either touches them or gets physically close where you feel threatened---.

In the Paf's case the border or line of control was a drama to hide their incompetence---.

If the enemy had fired their BVR's at paf aircraft---the line of control would not have become a wall to have stopped those missiles---.

Just the mere presence of those aircraft in an area of conflict was the reason to take them down---.

The cowardice started on the side of the Paf---when they did not declare the indian strike and act of war---that happened on the 26th---.

After that---everything that happened was for the Paf to save its face.

I will take it to the next level----the real TREASON BY PAKISTAN MILITARY happened when the ISPR etc started giving out details of the poor quality equipment that the indian air force had---.

What they were telling the IAF was to correct their deficiency for future so that we are not able to attack you---.

@crankthatskunk @Mangus Ortus Novem @BATMAN

Agreed 100%, ISPR and military acted like an excited child... but `impotent' would define best.
Only good reason come to mind is that, WoT has lead to premature promotions. Apparently, current leadership do not come close to the bench mark set by their predecessor, who were 180° in thought process and would never let PM influence military operations.
If inquiry commission can be held on how poorly Musharraf executed Kargil. Than why not on bloody obvious limbo. Excuse by ISPR, ''they hurt our trees so we decided to hurt their trees''. Which was thrown out of window on the 6th September program, aired on national TV, where pilots told the truth, which narrates a different tale.
As the time progressed and we saw constitutional amendments in favor of individuals, confirms all apprehensions of wheeling dealing happened on 27th February.

 

[DJ_Viper]

If the indian pilots had launched their missiles first---all our aircraft were toast---.

Thast is why I had stated in prior posts---for the enemy---it was a test run to check the Paf's response for what was to come in the future---.

I share the same opinion, this was done to 1: spread the surgical strike message to cool off the Indian population and 2: to understand PAF's response tactics, style and weapons, while, identifying weaknesses on IAF's side. And they've taken the task to fix the weaknesses to heart very quickly.

It doesn't make sense when your Radars & IFF transponders scream F-16's and you send in Mig-21's (primarily point defense) to fight the other side's most advance weapon systems. The real competition to block 52 is truly the SU-30 (even somewhat superior due to heavy aerodynamic, tvc and long raneg radar with jamming resistance).

If I was a strategic leader in PAF, I'd be upgrading the JF-17's with AESA's, range, more credible long range missiles & 9 hard-points. This platform has got to come closer to a mid-sized jet.

 

[PurpleButcher]

what are you saying that Pakistan air defence controllers should not have been employed in operation swift retort? one of them even got a award

i dont understand what the point is here, do people here know more than PAF who executed a text book interception ?

The point MK is trying too make is simple
When u have
1) Awacs in Air
2) AVM in Air
3) You know a confrontation is about to take place
4) You must have had a pre strike detailed briefing

Then
1) There should have been clear instructions given to pilots when to engage/when not to without taking permissions from avm who was taking permission from someone on the ground. This long chain of command should be non existent.
2) This lack of decisiveness caused seconds of delay in decision making which could have resulted in the enemy taking advantage and firing first.

In a war time, pilots should be clear headed and given the authority to take executive decision as per the limitations set by senior command during the pre flight briefing! Once in the air, the pilots should not be wasting critical time and getting bureaucratic approvals!!

 

[DJ_Viper]

Excuse by ISPR, ''they hurt our trees so we decided to hurt their trees''. Which was thrown out of window on the 6th September program, aired on national TV, where pilots told the truth, which narrates a different tale.
As the time progressed and we saw constitutional amendments in favor of individuals, confirms all apprehensions of wheeling dealing happened on 27th February.

What did the pilots say and what amendments were passed? Curious to find out...

 

[BATMAN]

this is what Arabs do and look how it ended for them

What's now with Arabs?

 

[MastanKhan]

Read again my post please, I mentioned non-war time, yes war time you are playing different game

what is the job of the ground air controller can you tell me? Pakistan still using ground based radar to vector fighters in the air ok now we have AWACS but not all the time

We missed many Soviet aircraft during 1980s because our ground communication never relayed the information on time to the fighters doing the intercept this is how it works in peace time, but at no stage did the pilots act independently avoiding a full scale confrontation with Russia

I think your understanding of air combat is a bit lacking



what are you saying that Pakistan air defence controllers should not have been employed in operation swift retort? one of them even got a award

i dont understand what the point is here, do people here know more than PAF who executed a text book interception ?

Hi,

Sir---there is NO ROLE of ground air controller in this case---. Th awacs are in the air---an AVM would be in the surveillance Saab aircraft---another AVM flying back seat in the F16---but that should not have made any difference and neither the awacs in air---.

The aircraft were getting a lock on their own on multiple enemy aircraft---. That should have been decided on the ground before the flight took place---what to do when that happened.

That was the part of the " what if " situations that was what M M Alam bragged about the Paf---that the Paf pilot briefing before the mission covered the what if in detail and he was in charge of any immediate issues that popped up---.

80's was a totally different time period---no surveillance aircraft for pakistan---just depending on the ground controller all the time---but if an enemy aircraft popped up in front of you in your target range---you took the shot---.

Worst case scenario---the AVM flying with the pilots should have taken charge and given the g ahead---.

The demise of 6 to 8 SU30's and Mirage 2K's would have been a shocking news to the indians and that also from the JF17's---.

The news alone would have sent waves of panic thru enemy air force pilots---.

What I am seeing over here from posters responses is that most don't know the procedure as to what instructions are given to the pilots on a strike mission---.

Paf blew away the INTERCEPT let 7-10 enemy aircraft escape---.

 

[Armchair]

There is no guarantee of that and you can not establish a cause and effect either.
In an alternate universe, had PAF shot down 8 IAF aircraft and Modi government would have gone and done the same thing in Kashmir anyways, people would have been bashing PAF saying it made that happen by being reckless and now look what that has led to.
Its easy to cook up fairy tales

Actually that is your opinion but not the truth of the matter. There is always a cause and effect. An impact. There is something called deterence. All these things cannot be willed away by a "it would all be the same" statement. For me, that is not intelligent at all.

Those of us who have actually studied politics as a subject would tell u that such an assessment is borderline laughable. To simplify:

1. That Modi would have won the election by showing he has been tough with Pakistan would not have happened. This means Modi could have lost the election. Or won it with a weaker margin or in a coalition.
2. Supposing he had won it, he would have still thought harder and had less political capital to go hard on the Kashmiris
3. Supposing he did that too, there would have still been less pressure on the Pak border as they would remember better the consequences of it.

Ignoring all of this doesn't mean this didn't happen, any more than an ostrich putting its head in the sand gets rid of the danger it is surrounded with.

 

[DJ_Viper]

Hi,
The aircraft were getting a lock on their own on multiple enemy aircraft---. That should have been decided on the ground before the flight took place---what to do when that happened.

The demise of 6 to 8 SU30's and Mirage 2K's would have been a shocking news to the indians and that also from the JF17's---.

Paf blew away the INTERCEPT let 7-10 enemy aircraft escape---.

It is my understanding (and anyone from the PAF can correct me), that lock-on's from across the border between the two nations are very common, especially when tensions are high. That's because of longer range BVR radars. But there are SOP's, so no firing takes place. If you take down an enemy's jet without provocation, it would be considered an act of war. So the plane must be shot down in your area to "prove" violation of your sovereignty to avoid a full-war, or international pressure as both nations have nuke's.

It is probably that one thing, where firing had to be ONLY allowed when based on the distance & variables, it was determined out of 6 or 8 jets, only 1 or 2 jet's would be fired upon and if hit, these jet/s would drop within Pakistani airspace. Second, it would become an airspace violation again, and lastly and most importantly, it was a "measured" response to send a carrot and stick message.

Now if in theory you really took down 6 jet's (100% kill rate won't happen against Mirage 2k9 and SU-30), that's half a billion dollar loss and would result in a massive air-attack back and there goes the war. So it was done just enough to send a message.

 

[Nomad40]

Hi,

Thank you for an excellent excellent post---.




Hi,

That is a mentality of incompetence on part of the Paf and of Low Self Esteem---.

The US police has a 21 ft rule---. If a threat gets into your 21ft circle of radius there is a good chance that you might die---.

If they get into 10-12 ft radius---then you may consider yourself dead---.

On the civilian side---a person can claim self defense when the other person either touches them or gets physically close where you feel threatened---.

In the Paf's case the border or line of control was a drama to hide their incompetence---.

If the enemy had fired their BVR's at paf aircraft---the line of control would not have become a wall to have stopped those missiles---.

Just the mere presence of those aircraft in an area of conflict was the reason to take them down---.

The cowardice started on the side of the Paf---when they did not declare the indian strike and act of war---that happened on the 26th---.

After that---everything that happened was for the Paf to save its face.

I will take it to the next level----the real TREASON BY PAKISTAN MILITARY happened when the ISPR etc started giving out details of the poor quality equipment that the indian air force had---.

What they were telling the IAF was to correct their deficiency for future so that we are not able to attack you---.

@crankthatskunk @Mangus Ortus Novem @BATMAN

Hello @MastanKhan

It is not upto PAF to Declare war. PAF's job is to fight the aerial warfare.

As a human I dont like to tell other people that they dont know what they are talking about until and unless they cross into NEZ and my Friend as much as I would Like to annihilate you with some BVR knowledge and Some facts about the Operation but kicking swiftly retort I wont because of 2 reasons.

1) you have made up your mind.

2) I suspect a bunch of these bastards might be from the other side with possibly False Pakistani Flags.

Strategically and sanely it was a good decision not to take down the remaining "9" because than was would have been inevitable.

"On that day the voice of 200 million People was represented by a couple of chaps who dared and the whole world listened-------- The PAF might do some things that just confuses the shit out of me and it might take some unconventional strategic decisions but it is my Air force that I depend upon"

ANYWAYS I AM GOING TO COPY YOUR STYLE OF WRITING I HOPE YOU DONT MIND.

I couldn't help but to jump into this. Very interesting thread with lots of opinions it seems.

Even for the USAF / USN, clearance to Fox is a must. This isn't WWII that no real tech exists, you can now track enemies from 100's of miles away. The only time there won't be a clear to Fox approval is when you scrambled hot (defensive), but IFF would still be needed and communicated / affirmed.

Hello @DJ_Viper In today's aerial warfare permissions are yabits more of a formality but yeah when you scramble and you have a bandit that might be going defensive on you than you can seek permission to shoot the BANDIT if he is not bug-ing out.

Every thing is covered in the Briefing room all shoot parameters addressed and ROE revised.


The Pilot Knows Better when will be a good time shoot


It is more of the communication phase about the action that the "PILOT" ----an---- "OFFICER" is about to take which is being Recorded.

USAF/USN Pilots are trained to take Independent and just decisions and so are the Pakistanis. So I am confident that in the Case of swift Retort the Indian Jets were------- FAR FAR AWAY (as Shrek says) they didn't even bother coming close.



If one knows------then they Know what tactics were used to Fight BVR that day,

Cheers.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hello @MastanKhan

It is not upto PAF to Declare war. PAF's job is to fight the aerial warfare.

As a human I dont like to tell other people that they dont know what they are talking about until and unless they cross into NEZ and my Friend as much as I would Like to annihilate you with some BVR knowledge and Some facts about the Operation but kicking swiftly retort I wont because of 2 reasons.

1) you have made up your mind.

2) I suspect a bunch of these bastards might be from the other side with possibly False Pakistani Flags.

Strategically and sanely it was a good decision not to take down the remaining "9" because than was would have been inevitable.

"On that day the voice of 200 million People was represented by a couple of chaps who dared and the whole world listened-------- The PAF might do some things that just confuses the shit out of me and it might take some unconventional strategic decisions but it is my Air force that I depend upon"

ANYWAYS I AM GOING TO COPY YOUR STYLE OF WRITING I HOPE YOU DONT MIND.


Hello @DJ_Viper In today's aerial warfare permissions are yabits more of a formality but yeah when you scramble and you have a bandit that might be going defensive on you than you can seek permission to shoot the BANDIT if he is not bug-ing out.

Every thing is covered in the Briefing room all shoot parameters addressed and ROE revised.


The Pilot Knows Better when will be a good time shoot


It is more of the communication phase about the action that the "PILOT" ----an---- "OFFICER" is about to take which is being Recorded.

USAF/USN Pilots are trained to take Independent and just decisions and so are the Pakistanis. So I am confident that in the Case of swift Retort the Indian Jets were------- FAR FAR AWAY (as Shrek says) they didn't even bother coming close.



If one knows------then they Know what tactics were used to Fight BVR that day,

Cheers.

Hi,

If you want to reply---give a straight answer---.

 

[MastanKhan]

The point MK is trying too make is simple
When u have
1) Awacs in Air
2) AVM in Air
3) You know a confrontation is about to take place
4) You must have had a pre strike detailed briefing

Then
1) There should have been clear instructions given to pilots when to engage/when not to without taking permissions from avm who was taking permission from someone on the ground. This long chain of command should be non existent.
2) This lack of decisiveness caused seconds of delay in decision making which could have resulted in the enemy taking advantage and firing first.

In a war time, pilots should be clear headed and given the authority to take executive decision as per the limitations set by senior command during the pre flight briefing! Once in the air, the pilots should not be wasting critical time and getting bureaucratic approvals!!

Hi,

Dangit---I take hours and hours writing these long pages and then you come along and in 2 little paras you submerge what I have been writing for hours---.

Well done & thank you---.

Indian pilots on the other hand were acting independently basically your descripton and looked what happened

Hi,

Indian aircraft's transmissions were jammed at that time---they were entrapped---that is why Paf pilots were getting radar lock on those aircraft---thus they were momentarily helpless like sitting ducks for about 15-16 seconds---. Desperately seeking to run out of the arena into which they had been sucked in and expecting to get a BVR missile up their tail pipe any moment---.

can we come back to the topic, which is AZM ... and stop with these constant war-drum discussions

Hi,

@Deino---project AZM is moving along at a very good pace and as one of our colleagues mentioned---if it was not for Corona---a lots of info would have come out---.

 

[kursed]

The decision to take out MKI and the Bison were by pilots, where has this info emerged from that they were asking for clearance?

Heck, the MKI was taken out at such a distance that it had to be explained and the pilot explained why he opted to do it. I am not sure how folks here do their thing but almost none of what you lot are discussing here, actually happened. Yes, the Indians were toyed with, but as a decision that was made before this even began. It was decided beforehand to keep the enemy bodycount on the down-low, unless they threatened our aircrafts.

And after two of their aircrafts were shot down, enemy bugged the hell out of the area. This is why they were ordered to not chase them.

 

[Mentee]

. Second, it would become an airspace violation again, and lastly and most importantly, it was a "measured" response to send a carrot and stick message.

Are you sure paf striking 6 Indian military installations wasn't a violation of there airspace or an act of overt aggression ?people need to stop cooking up fantasies coz in real life anyone worth his salt will retaliate even if you poke him with your pinky.


Hypothetically speaking the only way to not to draw any response from the enemy is to completely given in - - - - -then you can proudly wear your no air violation and escalation badge.

 

[Prince Kassad]

The really what happened this what happened
The PAF's North & South Axes were decoys, the Central axis was the main strike thrust - with F-16s using 1000 lbs LGBs, JF-17 the REKs and the Mir III/V the H2/ H4 SOW on 16 Corps targets. The PAF did not cross the LC anywhere.

The JF-17 vs Mirage 2000 engagement took place North of J&K as the JF-17s tried to 'push' the M2000s in a 'Red on Red'. The JF-17's NRIET KLJ-7 PD radar did not do well against the M2000s. The JF-17s main job was to keep the M2000s tied up and not move south.
A pair of M21 Bison was scrambled towards the north edge of the Central axis. Another pair was scrambled south west. Abhinandan was part of the SW vector.
The IAF did not have any AWACS on station, the PAF had a Saab 2000 ERIEYE 100 km at 30,000 feet, which controlled the battle space out to 150 Km+ inside India, guiding the HiTech F-16s positioning for Ambushing IAF jets in a designated kill zone in south J&K.
In central Axis, the the F-16s climbed to 40,000 feet and went supersonic. The JF-17s and Mir III/Vs released their payloads out of range due the threat of the M2000s north east of them, whom the JF-17s had not checked effectively
The PAF carried out Comm jamming, which was effective in places. With no AWACS the the IACCS's vectored 2 Su-30MKIs towards Poonch Rajouri. The PAF communication intercepted on the ERIEYE showed that the PAF was vary of the upgraded M2000s moving south.
There were 2x PAF 4 aircraft F-16 formations, one at 40,000 feet and the other undetected at 10-15,000 feet, approaching Nowshera. The plan was to fire the the first volley of AMRAAMS by the 4 F-16s at 40,000 feet, targeting the approaching Su-30MKIs
As the Su-30MKIs would engage in defensive manoeuvring, the second formation of 4 x F-16s at 15,000 feet (which had just finished a LGB run), would target the Su-30MKIs with a second volley of AMRAAMs
The Su-30MKIs picked up the higher pair of F-16s at 35-40,000 feet and anticipated the launch in a 'Red on Red', also cautioned by the GC The Su-30s cranked to reduce their forward travel and being in a position to outrun the AMRAAM's kinematics.
The Su-30MKI's did not get a launch command on their own R27 and RVV-AE AAMs due the differential in the snap up launch, with the F-16s going cold after launching their AMRAAMs
The timely cranking and the chaff helped the Su-30MKIs outmaneuver the AMRAAMs. 5 AIM-120C-5 s were fired on the Sukhois with no hit....
Meanwhile Abhinandan and his No 2 closed into the lower pair of F-16s abeam Nowshera, who were climbing to 25,000 feet to target the Sukhois in a flanking move
It was a 'red on red' for Abhinandan as he was picked up, but pressed on his attack after manually locking his R-73 on a F-16. He fired and turned back. One F-16 was hit and went down. Abhi was hit by an AMRAAM fired by a F-16, ejecting successfuly
Three chutes were reported in the area, with widespread reporting by ISPR and Pal handles that they had three pilots in custody. A parachute with Indian colours was seen coming down. For info the C-9 chute on the F-16 seat has white, orange and green colours
The PAF surprised the IAF by launching AAMs from inside Azad Kashmir. The AMRAAM effectively outranged the IAF AAMs, which did not get launch commands. Keeping the M2000s away from the F-16s was a priority for the PAF.
Abhinandan's act of engaging the lower pair of F-16s disrupted their plan to shoot down an IAF Sukhoi. Abhi scored the first F-16 kill by a Mig-21.