27 Feb 19: PAF shot down two Indian aircrafts inside Pakistani airspace: DG ISPR

[Pakistani Fighter]

Didn't want to start up a new Topic, so I thought this would suit well. This is what's been running on India Today since yesterday.

Yesterday

Today

@araz @airomerix @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Side-Winder @Socra @waz

@Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
My View attachment 631478 hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @ZedZeeshan

Their most prominent ones and close to Govt. ones ABP, Zee and Aaj Tak are quiet

 

[Trailer23]

Their most prominent ones and close to Govt. ones ABP, Zee and Aaj Tak are quiet

Because they've all gotten the danda courtesy of Arnab Goswami. Now they'll think twice before screaming at the camera.

 

[Liquidmetal]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1259436860826423296

 

[HRK]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1259436860826423296

wow ....

 

[aliyusuf]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1259436860826423296

Great reflexes and aim.

 

[Trailer23]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1259436860826423296

 

[airomerix]

Didn't want to start up a new Topic, so I thought this would suit well. This is what's been running on India Today since yesterday.

Yesterday

Today

@araz @airomerix @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Side-Winder @Socra @waz

@Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @Syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
My View attachment 631478 hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @ZedZeeshan

This is all crap.

On the contrary, there has been very little air activity on either side including LoC.

These Indians and their war hysteria.

 

[Imran Khan]

We all already know the answere ...

i just want to read his mind hope he will smile ever . at 27feb he just smiled first time for PAF just 1 day . next day he was angry again why paf just shot 2 why not 12 iaf jets

 

[MastanKhan]

i just want to read his mind hope he will smile ever . at 27feb he just smiled first time for PAF just 1 day . next day he was angry again why paf just shot 2 why not 12 iaf jets

Hi,

Satisfaction and limitations are a frame of mind---.

I have told this real story on this forum years ago---.

My very good friend in a different business got hurt and could not do his job.

Asks me---" what am I going to do---I know nothing else---". I told him come to car sales---he says I know nothing---. Told him he was the perfect candidate---owned a business---knew how to talk to people. Trained him for a couple of days and got him the job---.

In his first sales meeting of frdiay---the general sales manager is asking everyone of us on the sales floor how many vehicles each one of use will sell over the 3 day weekend---.

Some said one saome said two I said something like 4---when my buddies turn came he said 10---everybody laughed out loud---.

Anyway---fast forward 3 months---he call me on a friday morning---says guess what---how many cars I sold yesterday---I said tell me---he replied 9 cars---I fell off my chair.

I confirmed it with his manager later that day---he did it indeed---from 8 in the morning till 12 midnight---.

That thing changed my mindset---I used to be an 8-10 maybe 12 car salesman at that time---. I got satisfied with those numbers---.

I stopped being satisfied with those numbers---raised the bar and became a regular 15 + cars a month sale person---. One month I sold 34 cars---.

So I analyzed what I was doing wrong---. It was my mental state---. I had all the opportunity of selling a higher number of cars but I was just satisfied with 8-12 cars sold and was happy with that money---.

But then I realized if I just keep treating customers nicely sell them what they want---my numbers would go up and they did---.

So---what Paf did was get satisfied with those numbers---happy with lower expectations---like many pakistani posters on this forum.

In any business if the owner found out that I kicked out 8 solid buyers from the car lot because I had two deals under my belt that day and I was happy----I would have been fired from my job---and would have a hard time getting a job back in that business.

That is what the Paf hierarchy did---.

What most of the readers are not getting is the failure of the procedure by the Paf---which is---CALL BY THE PILOT ASKING PERSMISSION TO DOWN MORE ENEMY AIRCRAFT---this is the most critical information---.

This told me that our pilots were not given a free hand for AIR TO AIR combat---this flight was just for show---staged for a ground strike mission---.

Air to air combat was not a part of initial briefing before the mission---. It just became circumstantial act---.

And as there was no pre-planned action decided against the enemy aircraft---that is why you see confusion amongst pakistani pilots continuously seeking permission to shoot from the mission in charge in the air with them---who himself was not ready to take charge and make the decision---and passed on the buck---.

Did you read the interview of the officer of the Ghazi submarine that was posted here on this forum just recently---.

Even in the 1965 war---the submarine---that has to stay stealthy---during time of aggression had to surface and ask permission to shoot enemy ships---. So there they were---war was happening in Kashmir---the sub finds enemy ships and cannot fire on targets of opportunity---.

Supposedly on 4th sept---it pops up its periscope and the enemy aircraft carrier is berthed at the navy base right in front of it---.

A Yehudi captain and Israeli captain would have taken that enemy ship out without asking any questions---.

See---wonderful as our officers are---brave as the men are---but there is an inherent cowardice in their personality when taking the initiative at the right time to smash the enemy to kingdom come---.

So---coming back to it---I praised the action on the 27th for the initiative---but when the bigger picture became visible---it was sorry state of affairs reeking of cowardice of the pakistani generals---and of utmost bravery by the pilots and operators on the mission---. A massive opportunity lost by " older wiser men when the young were ready to sacrifice their lives to make a substatial blow on the enemy "---.
@Armchair @Mangus Ortus Novem @Mentee

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Satisfaction and limitations are a frame of mind---.

I have told this real story on this forum years ago---.

My very good friend in a different business got hurt and could not do his job.

Asks me---" what am I going to do---I know nothing else---". I told him come to car sales---he says I know nothing---. Told him he was the perfect candidate---owned a business---knew how to talk to people. Trained him for a couple of days and got him the job---.

In his first sales meeting of frdiay---the general sales manager is asking everyone of us on the sales floor how many vehicles each one of use will sell over the 3 day weekend---.

Some said one saome said two I said something like 4---when my buddies turn came he said 10---everybody laughed out loud---.

Anyway---fast forward 3 months---he call me on a friday morning---says guess what---how many cars I sold yesterday---I said tell me---he replied 9 cars---I fell off my chair.

I confirmed it with his manager later that day---he did it indeed---from 8 in the morning till 12 midnight---.

That thing changed my mindset---I used to be an 8-10 maybe 12 car salesman at that time---. I got satisfied with those numbers---.

I stopped being satisfied with those numbers---raised the bar and became a regular 15 + cars a month sale person---. One month I sold 34 cars---.

So I analyzed what I was doing wrong---. It was my mental state---. I had all the opportunity of selling a higher number of cars but I was just satisfied with 8-12 cars sold and was happy with that money---.

But then I realized if I just keep treating customers nicely sell them what they want---my numbers would go up and they did---.

So---what Paf did was get satisfied with those numbers---happy with lower expectations---like many pakistani posters on this forum.

In any business if the owner found out that I kicked out 8 solid buyers from the car lot because I had two deals under my belt that day and I was happy----I would have been fired from my job---and would have a hard time getting a job back in that business.

That is what the Paf hierarchy did---.

What most of the readers are not getting is the failure of the procedure by the Paf---which is---CALL BY THE PILOT ASKING PERSMISSION TO DOWN MORE ENEMY AIRCRAFT---this is the most critical information---.

This told me that our pilots were not given a free hand for AIR TO AIR combat---this flight was just for show---staged for a ground strike mission---.

Air to air combat was not a part of initial briefing before the mission---. It just became circumstantial act---.

And as there was no pre-planned action decided against the enemy aircraft---that is why you see confusion amongst pakistani pilots continuously seeking permission to shoot from the mission in charge in the air with them---who himself was not ready to take charge and make the decision---and passed on the buck---.

Did you read the interview of the officer of the Ghazi submarine that was posted here on this forum just recently---.

Even in the 1965 war---the submarine---that has to stay stealthy---during time of aggression had to surface and ask permission to shoot enemy ships---. So there they were---war was happening in Kashmir---the sub finds enemy ships and cannot fire on targets of opportunity---.

Supposedly on 4th sept---it pops up its periscope and the enemy aircraft carrier is berthed at the navy base right in front of it---.

A Yehudi captain and Israeli captain would have taken that enemy ship out without asking any questions---.

See---wonderful as our officers are---brave as the men are---but there is an inherent cowardice in their personality when taking the initiative at the right time to smash the enemy to kingdom come---.

So---coming back to it---I praised the action on the 27th for the initiative---but when the bigger picture became visible---it was sorry state of affairs reeking of cowardice of the pakistani generals---and of utmost bravery by the pilots and operators on the mission---. A massive opportunity lost by " older wiser men when the young were ready to sacrifice they lives to make a substatial blow on the enemy "---.
@Armchair @Mangus Ortus Novem @Mentee

Hi,

I will dig into my post one more time and want to bring you guys attention to what every one including myself had missed earlier---.

Paf pilot flying on a combat mission should not call back home or to the flight commander and seek permission to engage enemies locked on target.

So---when this happened---it meant that the Paf had not discussed enemy aircraft contact and had no contingency plan in place to what would happen if multiple enemy aircraft were locked on within range---.

Looking at the mission profile and engagement---it gets clearer that it was a strike mission with all the drama and show included and the procedure used was where the real focus was---.

It seems that during the pre flight briefing the Paf pilots did not have a free hand at what to engage and what not to and niether did the AVM flying back seat in the mission---.

If it had been decided before hand---neither the pilots needed to call the AVM and nor the AVM had to call home to her husband to get permission.

And people talking about this FAILURE of an AVM and making his case to be the next air chief should stop doing that---.

 

[Nomad40]

Hi,

I will dig into my post one more time and want to bring you guys attention to what every one including myself had missed earlier---.

Paf pilot flying on a combat mission should not call back home or to the flight commander and seek permission to engage enemies locked on target.

So---when this happened---it meant that the Paf had not discussed enemy aircraft contact and had no contingency plan in place to what would happen if multiple enemy aircraft were locked on within range---.

Looking at the mission profile and engagement---it gets clearer that it was a strike mission with all the drama and show included and the procedure used was where the real focus was---.

It seems that during the pre flight briefing the Paf pilots did not have a free hand at what to engage and what not to and niether did the AVM flying back seat in the mission---.

If it had been decided before hand---neither the pilots needed to call the AVM and nor the AVM had to call home to her husband to get permission.

And people talking about this FAILURE of an AVM and making his case to be the next air chief should stop doing that---.

Hi @MastanKhan I hope Ramadan is treating you good.

"it meant that the Paf had not discussed enemy aircraft contact and had no contingency plan in place to what would happen if multiple enemy aircraft were locked on within rang"

Can you Elaborate.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi @MastanKhan I hope Ramadan is treating you good.

"it meant that the Paf had not discussed enemy aircraft contact and had no contingency plan in place to what would happen if multiple enemy aircraft were locked on within rang"

Can you Elaborate.

Hi,

I believe I explained it clearly that Paf was more focused on a strike mission and forgot about the targets of opportunity---.

 

[Nomad40]

Hi,

I believe I explained it clearly that Paf was more focused on a strike mission and forgot about the targets of opportunity---.

@MastanKhan ask your self this question: Out of the whole strike package why Only 4 (2 Mirages + @ JF-17) actually went in for the strike (air interdiction) whilst a whole squadron was air superiority.

 

[DrWatson775]

@MastanKhan ask your self this question: Out of the whole strike package why Only 4 (2 Mirages + @ JF-17) actually went in for the strike (air interdiction) whilst a whole squadron was air superiority.

A counter argument would be this: if so many aircraft were on CAP, why did they have to wait for permission from the ground to engage enemy fighters that were there for the sole reason to prevent them from succeeding in their mission?

In these days of datalinks, the whole aerial picture is in front of the pilots including the mission leader in the air. If they deem an enemy aircraft can pose a threat, they should engage without wasting precious minutes or even seconds which can put the lives of their colleagues in peril.

In aerial warfare I believe seconds count. The country's sovereignty had been violated and you are waiting for permission to fire when the mission itself is an offensive mission albeit in reponse to the enemy's aggression?

In the '67 and '73 wars, the IAF pilots on many occasions took bold decisions on their own. Granted radio communication was not as robust as it is today and they would have made some decisions without able to communicate with ground controllers. Better communications must not result in the decision making process transferred to the ground in the heat of the battle. Micromanagement has some downside.

 

[arjunk]

Neither side will go to war right now, world economy is imploding atm