Z-10 or T-129 Atak or AH-1Z for the Pakistan Army?

[Safriz]

So was the Comanche just to note for academic reasons...

Yes..thats why you never saw it in Production..Too much money was spent on Helicopter stealth which isn't a viable thing...

 

[cabatli_53]

How is T-129 weapons package better than WZ-10? And engine would matter, since it would allow WZ-10 to carry 16 Hellfire class AKD-10 while having better armour protection and performance. As for avionics/sensor/EW again WZ-10 is at par.

For performance comparison, Check HP power per tonnes or kg to see Which helo is superior to another, If you really want to consider weapon carriage capacity, rate of climb and some other factors which is directly related with power on per tonnes/kg.

Similar class helicopters:

T-129 Atak: 550hp/tonnes
AH-1W SuperCobra: 505hp/tonnes
Eurcopter Tiger HAP: 390hp/tonnes
CAIC WZ-10: 380hp/tonnes


No need to mention hot-high performance of Atak which is specially created to provide its best against armed assymetric threats at on of the most difficult terrains of the World. That's why Atak is light but heavy armed, highly manouvrable platform.

For armour protection comparison, Do anyone know Which calibres AP munition T-129 Atak stand against ? What about WZ-10 ?

For Electronics and EW systems, Turkish upgraded american platforms equipped with Aselsan MFD, Communication devvices and EW systems are being operated by Turkish army in real operation areas sucessfully. They are NATO class proven systems.

 

[cabatli_53]

Not to mention the lower RCS due to Radar-absorbent paints !!!!

and then the biggest factor to consider WZ-10.

This baby is Damn sexier than T-129 !!!

Don't worry. Atak has one of the most capable radar absoring paint/material on fuselage but We are talking about a platform which is driven by rotors so Stealth fuselage or RAM doesn't make much differences when helicopters are compared with aircrafts when the subject is keeping stealth.

 

[cabatli_53]

If i don't remember wrong (feel free to correct me) , the pod on the far left is the new launcher for the Cirit. Which houses 12 cirit on one pod.

T129B version will be loaded with 8 UMTAS, 12 CIRIT and 2 AIM-92 Stinger missiles.

Which makes it a multi-role heli. I don't know much about the WZ-10 but with the configuration you provided it fills the tank-hunter role which will be useless against asymmetric warfare ( aka: taliban)

Source: https://www.tai.com.tr/en/project/atak

 

[Bilal.]

For performance comparison, Check HP power per tonnes or kg to see Which helo is superior to another, If you really want to consider weapon carriage capacity, rate of climb and some other factors which is directly related with power on per tonnes/kg.

Similar class helicopters:

T-129 Atak: 550hp/tonnes
AH-1W SuperCobra: 505hp/tonnes
Eurcopter Tiger HAP: 390hp/tonnes
CAIC WZ-10: 380hp/tonnes


No need to mention hot-high performance of Atak which is specially created to provide its best against armed assymetric threats at on of the most difficult terrains of the World. That's why Atak is light but heavy armed, highly manouvrable platform.

For armour protection comparison, Do anyone know Which calibres AP munition T-129 Atak stand against ? What about WZ-10 ?

For Electronics and EW systems, Turkish upgraded american platforms equipped with Aselsan MFD, Communication devvices and EW systems are being operated by Turkish army in real operation areas sucessfully. They are NATO class proven systems.

If the hp/ton is for current WZ-9 powered WZ-10 then you are right but it is slated to get WZ-16 which has 1500kw or 50% more power that might propel it to top T-129 power to weight ratio.

Again,you are right, ATAK seems to much geared towards COIN/asymmetric warfare, where as we need something that can also easily play the role of a powerful tank hunter to counter cold start type armoured offensive from our eastern border. We are facing our Warsaw pact moment with India amassing armour.


As for armour protection we don't have hard data but it would be an informed guess if one says that WZ-10 being a heavier class attack helicopter would have more armour protection.

Finally, electronics wise both seem quite close but remember times have changed, China is rapidly become a top tier country in terms of avionics and with billions upon billions being invested one shouldn't expect otherwise. Just as an example PAF is extremely pleased by avionics package provided by China for JF-17.

 

[cabatli_53]

Sir think of it like this.

For anti-armor role one WZ-10 with 16 baktar shikan will be able to do the job of 2 t-129 with 8 umtas each !!!

Who said T-129 Atak can't carry 16 ATGM ? A copter with 380Hp/tonnes is able to carry 16 ATGM but Atak with 500hp/tonnes can't ? How logical is that ? Let's talk about some technical details regarding wepon stations and payload of Atak.


T129 : Wing weapons store 4 x 300kg
UMTAS Missile < 37.5 kg; 4 Missiles + Launcher < 210kg

210kg x 4 station = 840kg Total weight of 16 UMTAS + launchers (Atak has 1200kg payload capacity for each station on two wings)


Is there any technical limitation on Atak to carry 16 ATGM ? No...
8 ATGM on Atak is just a configuration to meet the performance criterias TSK requested. There isn't any techical limitation to integrate 16 AT missiles instead of 12 or 8.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Who said T-129 Atak can't carry 16 ATGM ? A copter with 380Hp/tonnes is able to carry 16 ATGM but Atak with 500hp/tonnes can't ? How logical is that ? Let's talk about some technical details regarding wepon stations and payload of Atak.


T129 : Wing weapons store 4 x 300kg
UMTAS Missile < 37.5 kg; 4 Missiles + Launcher < 210kg

210kg x 4 station = 840kg Total weight of 16 UMTAS + launchers (Atak has 1200kg payload capacity for each station on two wings)


Is there any technical limitation on Atak to carry 16 ATGM ? No...
8 ATGM on Atak is just a configuration to meet the performance criterias TSK requested. There isn't any techical limitation to integrate 16 AT missiles instead of 12 or 8.

Sir plz read the previous comments before quoting . we are talking about a WZ-10 with WZ16 turboshafts.

also an Anti-Armor shopper does not only carry ATGM's. there's other armament also.

 

[cabatli_53]

Sir plz read the previous comments before quoting . we are talking about a WZ-10 with WZ16 turboshafts.

also an Anti-Armor shopper does not only carry ATGM's. there's other armament also.

Dude, I am talking about weapon stations and their payload capacities with a simple math. Rest is about Army officials request to integrate sole ATGM missiles or other guided/unguided rockets, munitions under the wings. What I mention is not about proving something wrong about WZ-10. I am talking about Atak and some misinformed members comments regarding it.

 

[Bilal.]

Additionally, umtas seems much lighter ~37 kg compared ~50 kg AKD-10/hellfire, so while it's the same generation its not the same class as those heavy anti tank missiles. Moreover, IIRC AKD-10 has a range advantage against umtas to 10km vs 8km.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Dude, I am talking about weapon stations and their payload capacities with a simple math. Rest is about Army officials request to integrate sole ATGM missiles or other guided/unguided rockets, munitions under the wings. What I mention is not about proving something wrong about WZ-10. I am talking about Atak and some misinformed members comments regarding it.

Do have any idea what kind of armor battles we have in Indo-pak ???

Do really think it would be wise to send T-129's with 16 atgm's without any AAM's fortheir protection and without rockets to a battlefield which has 300+ hostile mbt's with their own air support !!!!

 

[cabatli_53]

Additionally, umtas seems much lighter ~37 kg compared ~50 kg AKD-10/hellfire, so while it's the same generation its not the same class as those heavy anti tank missiles. Moreover, IIRC AKD-10 has a range advantage against umtas to 10km vs 8km.

Heavier ATGM is not an advantage on a rotorcraft. What makes an ATGM supeior is tandem warhead's penetration capability. Weight of UMTAS's warhead is same as Hellfire but Total weight is lighter than Hellfire. UMTAS is able to penetrate more than 1200+mm RHA like hellfire on same range scale. BTW, UMTAS offers two different warhead selection.

 

[Bilal.]

Heavier ATGM is not an advantage on a rotorcraft. What makes an ATGM supeior is tandem warhead's penetration capability. Weight of UMTAS's warhead is same as Hellfire but Total weight is lighter than Hellfire. UMTAS is able to penetrate more than 1200+mm RHA like hellfire on same range scale. BTW, UMTAS offers two different warhead selection.

It sure is a beauty but hellfire was specifically designed to be helicopters based heavy ATGM and it's success is evident by it's record. Moreover, AKD-10 does have a 2km range advantage with similar armour penetration and it too has tandem warhead that's pretty much standard nowadays.

 

[cabatli_53]

Additionally, umtas seems much lighter ~37 kg compared ~50 kg AKD-10/hellfire, so while it's the same generation its not the same class as those heavy anti tank missiles. Moreover, IIRC AKD-10 has a range advantage against umtas to 10km vs 8km.

UMTAS's longer range variant (12km) is also developed and tested as well but Being Heavier weight than normal UMTAS, lighter warhead application trials to prevent extreme weight rise = less effectivity over armours, difficulties of engagement small threats on longer ranges than 8km by E/O is assesed as not effective as planned so not considered.

 

[cabatli_53]

BTW, Laser UMTAS is cheaper than IIR-UMTAS.

What makes FF IIR-UMTAS expensive is its high resolution IIR sensor which is developed by Aselsan.

 

[Bilal.]

So effectively, it got cancelled? I mean the 12 km version, that's a tragedy

You know what interests me the most....kmtas! It can give a platoon a mini guided artillery.