Z-10 or T-129 Atak or AH-1Z for the Pakistan Army?

[Manticore]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/83869-t-129-helis-p-confirmed-pm-pakistan-7.html

old thread

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Would prefer T-129 if transfer of technology and any licenses necessary is given to allow Pakistan to domestically produce the the attack helicopter. Pakistan needs long term investment in an attack helicopter platform so these things need to be viewed in this aspect.

I would go for T-129, its a proven platform with the strong Italian military Aviation history. it comes with state of the art package of technology & military hardware.

I am not that fussed about transfer of technology of every good piece that is out there in the world. looking at our limited resources, output of quality engineers, scientists and technicians I think its a miracle that we are managing one or two odd military projects (that are safe from the claws of democracy). you know how much it will cost for ToT? and how many in-house trained people we need? I dont want to make it a TOT feasibly argument thread just saying that its good enough with the Turkish industry making it for us just like F-16 block 52 are.

Chinese military hardware is just breaking the technological barrier of its 60s 70s era look, there is lot of ambition and promise but thats pretty much it. the state we are in doesnt allow us to live on promises we got TTP and PPP's democratic revenge to face.

 

[MilSpec]

^^ why not stick to the AH1Z cobras... last batch came almost free of cost, why spend money on other helis??

 

[Irfan Baloch]

^^ why not stick to the AH1Z cobras... last batch came almost free of cost, why spend money on other helis??

you have raised this point many times and it has not lost its value, even Turkey did the same to tackle the KPP's insurgency. they got cobras while T-129 was still work in progress and Turkish Army couldnt wait.

the only issue is the sustainability of supply with a questionable relationships both countries have at the moment such deal would be a disaster.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

^^ why not stick to the AH1Z cobras... last batch came almost free of cost, why spend money on other helis??

just thought of something now.
TTP now has started downing our helis and it includes cobras as well. just wondering if Pak army is looking for a different platform that has better chance of dealing with whatever TTP gets its hands on from its suppliers in Afghanistan.

 

[MilSpec]

you have raised this point many times and it has not lost its value, even Turkey did the same to tackle the KPP's insurgency. they got cobras while T-129 was still work in progress and Turkish Army couldnt wait.

the only issue is the sustainability of supply with a questionable relationships both countries have at the moment such deal would be a disaster.

The reason why i have brought up AH1 Zulu time and again is because it is cheaper than T129, boasts similar capabilities and is exceptionally reliable.

US- Pak relations are ok now, and AH1Z's constitutes a genuine WoT bill, unlike F16's which seem to have a greater use against India. As part of the WoT effort, Pakistan can push for atleast 40-50 of them, through EDA/FMA. It will be an exceptionally cost effective option.

As far as taliban is concerned, if they can down a AH1Z, it can down a T129, US can provide better avionics package, consistent sensor upgrades, and better protection modules than Italy/turkey can.

Now Pakistan will have to maintain cordial relations with US under worst situation for spares and support for f16 blk 52's for next two decades, I dont see why AH1Z's need to discounted for support in the same time frame....

Unless T129's bring some exceptional technolgy which cannot be matched by AH1Z's, only then I guess it makes sense going for the newer platform!

 

[Jango]

just thought of something now.
TTP now has started downing our helis and it includes cobras as well. just wondering if Pak army is looking for a different platform that has better chance of dealing with whatever TTP gets its hands on from its suppliers in Afghanistan.

Helicopters can be downed very easily by 12.7mm guns (which TTP have), during a evac op or anything of the sort. Heli comes down to drop of troops or pick them, the TTP get an easy target.

No heli in Pak inventory can get that sort of a beating. Only the avionics bay, cockpit area and some other components have a Kevlar covering or thick metal plates, all rest is thin metal.

Unless you go for a Mi-24 Hind that is like a tank, or the costly Apache (twin engine, more armour), things like these are going to happen. Gotta deal with it. PAA isn't going to change helis because of this IMO...

 

[surya kiran]

just thought of something now.
TTP now has started downing our helis and it includes cobras as well. just wondering if Pak army is looking for a different platform that has better chance of dealing with whatever TTP gets its hands on from its suppliers in Afghanistan.

Any operational heli will find the same problem in the type of mountainous terrain your chaps work in. Especially since it is a valley zone, it would need sanitization of surrounding peaks before any heli can move in, especially in an evac mission. Be it a Cobra or Mi or whatever.

Don't you think spares will be a problem, especially since the total number of choppers are not high and you woul need ToT to set up facilities in Pak?

 

[LegionnairE]

The reason why i have brought up AH1 Zulu time and again is because it is cheaper than T129, boasts similar capabilities and is exceptionally reliable.

US- Pak relations are ok now, and AH1Z's constitutes a genuine WoT bill, unlike F16's which seem to have a greater use against India. As part of the WoT effort, Pakistan can push for atleast 40-50 of them, through EDA/FMA. It will be an exceptionally cost effective option.

As far as taliban is concerned, if they can down a AH1Z, it can down a T129, US can provide better avionics package, consistent sensor upgrades, and better protection modules than Italy/turkey can.

Now Pakistan will have to maintain cordial relations with US under worst situation for spares and support for f16 blk 52's for next two decades, I dont see why AH1Z's need to discounted for support in the same time frame....

Unless T129's bring some exceptional technolgy which cannot be matched by AH1Z's, only then I guess it makes sense going for the newer platform!

Let's not forget the Turkish Armed Forces' 30 years of fight against a terrorist organization very much similiar to Taliban. If it's good enough for Turkey then it should be good enough for Pakistan. As for the price concern, I'm sure we can work something out, we are all friends here

From what i can tell, state of the art sensors that Aselsan made available for T129 are better than anything US attack helicopters have. As for Avionics, we have whatever's available in AH64 Apache Block III available on T129. It can initiate a direct datalink connection to any Anka UAV in range. We can also make these unmanned aircraft available to brother Pakistan if or when the need arises.

 

[iajj]

pakistan will be drawn to the turkic heli for the same reason it will be wary of it: the turkics had tapped into angloamerican technology in building it. The turkic chopper is thus only a proxy test of pakistanis and angloamericans’ strategic trust in each other. So pakistan can go for the turkic chopper if the military leadership has enough confidence in the relationship with the west for the near future and won’t if not.

in addition to the angloamerican factors (which got nothing to do with the turkics and aren’t anything the turkics could change), china has long taken a big share in pakistan’s arms market for the simple reason that of all the major exporters china alone doesn’t sell to india at all whereas all other sellers would screw pakistan and sell the same weapons systems to india: pakistan may still buy from others, although its enthusiasm may be rightly damped if pakistan knows the same stuff – or even improved editions – would be sold to india. The depth of india’s wallet when it comes to military procurement puts a severe limitation on pakistan’s options, even, i believe, when it comes to this turkic copter.

 

[MilSpec]

Let's not forget the Turkish Armed Forces' 30 years of fight against a terrorist organization very much similiar to Taliban. If it's good enough for Turkey then it should be good enough for Pakistan. As for the price concern, I'm sure we can work something out, we are all friends here

From what i can tell, state of the art sensors that Aselsan made available for T129 are better than anything US attack helicopters have. As for Avionics, we have whatever's available in AH64 Apache Block III available on T129. It can initiate a direct datalink connection to any Anka UAV in range. We can also make these unmanned aircraft available to brother Pakistan if or when the need arises.

If turkey can provide the t129 at US prices then it's a superb option.

They reasons I thought AH1Z would be better option, I have already elaborated, Apart from that pakistan already has the training and infrastructure to handle these choppers. T129 will bring in additional costs, and multiple platforms with similar capabilities.

 

[LegionnairE]

china alone doesn’t sell to india at all whereas all other sellers would screw pakistan and sell the same weapons systems to india: pakistan may still buy from others, although its enthusiasm may be rightly damped if pakistan knows the same stuff – or even improved editions – would be sold to india. The depth of india’s wallet when it comes to military procurement puts a severe limitation on pakistan’s options, even, i believe, when it comes to this turkic copter.

Why would India want T129 in the first place? don't they have their own LCH?

If turkey can provide the t129 at US prices then it's a superb option.

They reasons I thought AH1Z would be better option, I have already elaborated, Apart from that pakistan already has the training and infrastructure to handle these choppers. T129 will bring in additional costs, and multiple platforms with similar capabilities.

Of course, We've had the same concerns. In 1990s Turkey was negotiating with Bell helicopters for AH-1Z too. Let's just say it didn't go well. But T129 is every bit as good as AH-1Z. Our older AH-1 series helicopters will be donated to allied countries or they'll be sold for scratch, to the nearest junkyard.

 

[iajj]

Why would India want T129 in the first place? don't they have their own LCH?

why should yindoos need anything from turkics and not be completely self-sufficient in everything now? but any much as i doubt turkics' ability to develop a weapons system entirely independently, i bemoan yindoos' ability to build a functional modern arm even more. four, fifty years down the road, the domestic military industry in india may overshadow any other middling power. but right now, the mere prospect that india might court a bid from you turkics and you turkics would be compelled by the economic incentives to submit a bid should be worrying enough to all of india's neighbors who might, too, want to procure from you turkics.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Helicopters can be downed very easily by 12.7mm guns (which TTP have), during a evac op or anything of the sort. Heli comes down to drop of troops or pick them, the TTP get an easy target.

No heli in Pak inventory can get that sort of a beating. Only the avionics bay, cockpit area and some other components have a Kevlar covering or thick metal plates, all rest is thin metal.

Unless you go for a Mi-24 Hind that is like a tank, or the costly Apache (twin engine, more armour), things like these are going to happen. Gotta deal with it. PAA isn't going to change helis because of this IMO...

and not to forget RPG that is employed to down American helis in Afghanistan.
@Sura Kiran you are right the mountains give a good opportunity to insurgents to launch an ambush on the helicopters.

a dear friend from childhood is in SSG and says that they have come under fire the moment they come out of helicopters and even the helicopter crew has suffered while dropping off troops.

 

[Sasquatch]

In my opinion Pakistan should go for the T129 now as it is more matured, the WZ-10 is up and running and being tested, introduced in the PLA, but the WZ-10 is using wz-9 engines which are less powerful, the WZ-10 had to go through some changes due to this. A heavier WZ-10 is in the works with wz-16 engines that should be on par with the Apache, until that comes the T129 would be a better choice.