Z-10 or T-129 Atak or AH-1Z for the Pakistan Army?

[帅的一匹]

@ wanglaokan
the unit cost of WZ10 is 2.8 or 28 million? because if its 2.8 then its the cheapest attack heli and PA would order atleast few dozens. but i don't think so it is that much low cost. also whats the unit cost of WZ19?

I do some further research on the Internet, the price of WZ10 is around 11 millions USD per.

 

[Last Hope]

Let's come to a logical conclusion, keeping everything else aside like relationship between two countries or armies.

Introduction to T-129.

The T129 is a formidable, new, highly powerful and capable all-weather day and night multi-role attack helicopter which is being developed in cooperation by AgustaWestland, Aselsan and TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries) for Turkey and other export markets. It is based upon the AW129 and its predecessor, the battle-proven A129 Mangusta platform. 1200kg Weapon payload, excellent performance for ‘hot and high’ conditions, 300nm range and endurance of up to 3 hours are enabled by state-of-the-art LHTEC-T800 engines, making the T129 a critical multi-role resource for attack, reconnaissance and deterrent operations. Low signature and agility ensure maximum stealth, and a significant weapons payload enable the T129 to operate in the most hostile of battlefield environments as well as in confined areas typical of current military scenarios. Latest technology features and Integrated Aircraft Survivability Equipment, delivers vital mission capabilities and survivability tools. The Integrated mission equipment package includes an advanced Targeting and Sight System (FLIR, CCTV, laser designator), Helmet Mounted Sight and Display, secure communication, precise navigation equipment and Data Link. High survivability enhanced by ballistic tolerance and crashworthiness is a fundamental design feature. The T129 benefits from the high field supportability necessary for an aircraft needing to operate in remote areas with the minimum logistical support.

Technical Data.

Equipped.

• Aircraft & Mission Management System (AMMS)
• Target acquisition utilising EO with laser range finder / designator, FLIR and CCTV
• Weapons ballistic trajectory processing
• Night Vision (Helmet Mounted Display System)
• Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT)
• External auxiliary fuel tanks
• Wire cutters
• Ice detection
• Infra red suppressors

Avionics.

• Avionic Central Control Computer-ACCC (Dual)
• Full Digital 4-axis Automatic Flight Control System (AFCS)
• 2 x Multifunction Display (Pilot + Copilot)
• Air vehicle monitoring system
• Integrated INS/GPS (Dual) / Doppler navigation
• Digital moving map
• Air data system
• Radar altimeter
• VHF/UHF radios
• HF radio
• IFF Transponder
• Voice encryption / Frequency Hopping
• Video data link
• DAS suite with passive and active counter measures

Primary weapons.

• Anti-Tank Guided Missiles (ATGM)
• Air-to-Air Missiles (ATAM)
• 70 mm (2.75&#8221 rockets
• 70 mm (2.75&#8221 guided rockets
• 20 mm turreted 3-barrel gun system
• 12.7 mm (.50&#8221 gun Pods (optional)

Comparing it with WZ-10.
(Since I couldn't find official website, I have used WikiPedia over here.)

General characteristics.

Crew: 2
Length: 14.15 m (ft)
Rotor diameter: 13.0 m[10] (ft)
Height: 3.85 m (ft)
Empty weight: 5,540 kg[10] (lb)
Loaded weight: 7,000 kg (lb)
Useful load: 1,500 kg[10] (lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 7,000+ kg (lb)
Powerplant: 2 × WZ-9 turboshaft[10], 1000 kw (1350 shp) each

Performance.

• Maximum speed: 300+ km/h[10]
• Cruise speed: 270+ km/h[10]
• Range: 800+ km[10] ()
• Service ceiling: 6,400 m (ft)
• Rate of climb: over 12 m/s[10] (ft/min)

Arms.

Guns: 23 mm or 30 mm autocannon mounted on chin turret
Hardpoints: 4
Rockets: 57 mm, 90 mm multi-barrel unguided rocket pods
Missiles:

• Up to 8 HJ-10 air to surface / anti tank / anti helicopter missiles
• Up to 8 HJ-8, HJ-9 missiles
• Up to 8 TY-90 air-to-air missiles
• Up to 4 PL-5, PL-7, PL-9 air-to-air missiles

Avionics.

• YH millimetre-wave fire-control radar
• Helmet mounted sight with night vision goggles
• BM/KG300G self protection jamming pod
• Blue Sky navigation pod
• KZ900 reconnaissance pod
• YH-96 electronic warfare suite

Now looking at both of them and giving general comparison, the T-129 outscores WZ-10. You must also keep in mind the operating costs and helicopter-building experiences of the companies. I would opt for T-129 for now. When the WZ-10 gets mature and proven, it should be considered, but for now T-129 should be the right choice if you oversee the money-matters here. With finance in the equation, WZ-10 scores!

 

[veekysingh]

I don't think so.

6,400 M=20997.38 feets

LCH has max service ceiling of 20,000 feets with 2 X HAL/Turbomeca Shakti turboshaft (1067 KW each) and has empty weight of 2,700 Kg.

as far i know, lch service selling is 6500(21500ft) . heavy helo's cant reach those thr.

I do some further research on the Internet, the price of WZ10 is around 11 millions USD per.

this is full life cycle cost?

 

[nickchenyj]

this is full life cycle cost?

doubt it, but definitely much cheaper than T-129.

The good thing about WZ-10 is that any contract between PAK and China is trouble free, and the potential TOT is always appealing.
The bad thing is the engine. And no one knows for sure when the new engines will come out.
So if PAK does need some NOW, T-129 seems the only choice. Or I'd suggest waiting.

 

[cabatli_53]

Update !!!

TAI started design/modification of a new variant of T-129 Atak called B2 to be manufactured in 2016 (Latest 21 T-129 Atak will be manufactured B2 variant). The take-off weight of B2 is planned to be increased between %5-%10 (max. 500kg), While new generation avionic systems/hardwares will be connected(!) to gain aprox. %50 lighter weight of current A version's avionics. Such efforts will make B2 to be able to carry more weapon payload and gained increased range. The Nose section will be re-designed/quite longer than standart A and B1 versions for Meteksan developed MMW radar integration.


Meteksan MMW radar

T-129A COIN attack helicopter(10)
T-129B1 Anti-Tank/Air Model (29)
T-129B2 Radar integrated,longer nose, Increased range, bigger payload variant (21)

T-129 Atak-A

After deliveries of the B2 versions finish it is expected that the previous 39 helicopters will be upgraded to B-2 standard.


Completion of related courses are announced !!!
TAI is the sole maintenance and training center of T-129 Atak variants all around the World.

-TAI Atak test pilots qualification cources
-TAI Atak pilot oriantation cource
-TAI Atak mechanical maintenance crew cource
-TAI Atak avionic and weapon system training cources

 

[cabatli_53]

At SSIK meeting, Havelsan is officially charged to develop T-129 ATAK variant's domestic simulators as well.

With Domestic simulator program, Secrets of T-129 Atak will be kept in hand...

 

[Gentelman]

PA will look for super Cobras if Americans will agree to provide them...
if economy will be supporting(as it is improving from 2-3 months) then we will look forward T-129 while as a last option WZ-10 will be considered....
we are already trying many new things...
it's take time to train and gain experiance on a new platform...
soo we will still expect western tech in helos...
as turks helo is also NATO compatable....
sooo 1st its Super Cobra...
i suppose they will provide this to replace cobras.....

 

[cabatli_53]

Update !!!

Serial production order for 2000 Cirit missile were given to Roketsan. Cirit is the first 2,75 inch Air to Ground laser guided missiles in World which is passed into serial production phases way before than USA, Israel, S. Korean, European rivals so It is expected to reach so big markets.

About Tubitak SAGE/Roketsan Cirit missile

 

[cabatli_53]

At trials, Cirit successfully engaged a moving target travelling at 60 km/h while the platform (AH-1W Super Cobra) it was fired from was moving at 220 km/h (120 knots).

Cirit missiles are started to actively used on PKK operations in SE Turkey.

Serial production of Hellfire equivalent Turkish UMTAS AT missiles are expected to be commenced in mid 2013 as well. Trials are almost comleted and The results are perfect..

 

[nForce]

Which one would Pakistan army choose, WZ10 or T129?

the one they will be able to afford...

 

[fatman17]

PA will look for super Cobras if Americans will agree to provide them...
if economy will be supporting(as it is improving from 2-3 months) then we will look forward T-129 while as a last option WZ-10 will be considered....
we are already trying many new things...
it's take time to train and gain experiance on a new platform...
soo we will still expect western tech in helos...
as turks helo is also NATO compatable....
sooo 1st its Super Cobra...
i suppose they will provide this to replace cobras.....

replacing PA attack helos is not a top priority at this point (army sources)

 

[MilSpec]

Pakistani attack helicopters were mostly obtained from US via WoT funding, and weren't actually bought from them. I dont PAF/PA wasting money when they can keep getting free stuff from US.

 

[Gentelman]

At trials, Cirit successfully engaged a moving target travelling at 60 km/h while the platform (AH-1W Super Cobra) it was fired from was moving at 220 km/h (120 knots).

Cirit missiles are started to actively used on PKK operations in SE Turkey.

Serial production of Hellfire equivalent Turkish UMTAS AT missiles are expected to be commenced in mid 2013 as well. Trials are almost comleted and The results are perfect..

well the chances for Pakistan having T-129 will be much more than any other of turkey can give it's own home made weapon with them...
means we atleast will be sure that in case of weapons we will not be effected by sanctions......

replacing PA attack helos is not a top priority at this point (army sources)

PA can have free hellos by Americans sooo we r not worried about our heli fleet...
these helis r in good condition..
bt i suppose that we should hava atleast 2 more helis squadron to meet up our needs.....
well OA is waiting Americans to retire their AH-1F and have free super cobra frm them.

replacing PA attack helos is not a top priority at this point (army sources)

PA can have free hellos by Americans sooo we r not worried about our heli fleet...
these helis r in good condition..
bt i suppose that we should hava atleast 2 more helis squadron to meet up our needs.....
well OA is waiting Americans to retire their AH-1F and have free super cobra frm them.

 

[Nishan_101]

In my honest Opinion PAA as well as many people will going to suggest Z-10P as its quite reliable and affordable with secrecy in technology and have similar wepaons like others and can be integrated with indigenous and foreign weapons as well. I am hopeful that very soon to see a bigger deal with China of about 30 Z-10Ps which should have happened in 2010 but still can be possible this year too.

 

[Manticore]