Words that BYTE

[SQ8]

@Oscar has put up a very thoughtful proposition, that we should clearly think through the advantages and disadvantages, even the feasibility of a forum where defence is discussed between members of two nations that are not at peace with each other.

I believe that the logic of the argument hides a paradox; the difficulties arise not on defence related topics and threads but on social and political threads. Without commenting on the extreme opinions on the Pakistani side, it is a very clear thing that extremists among the Indians habitually concentrate on social and political threads; they are never there on the defence threads, not even by accident. Most of the disagreements and quarrels break out on those threads, too, and rarely, if ever, is there rancour or bitterness on defence threads.

If we are to respond to this initiative, I think it should be to segregate the two streams, even to split this forum into two, and to remove Indians from dual membership. We need be accepted into either the defence stream or into the social and political stream; there can be exceptions. The point is that some of us have always had an interest in the defence threads, and have also enjoyed the conversations there, and conversely have been dragged into social and political threads, and found full-scale communal riots going on over there.

If this is not a practical suggestion, then allow Indians into one or the other stream, not into both. To be honest, that would be a crippled choice, crippled by a clumsy compromise, one that satisfies neither the objective of seeking a broader-based discussion than the one confined to a single nationality nor the objective of seeking a more polite discussion with very strict rules regarding references to religion to each other's national characteristics, actual or mythical, or to anybody's personal integrity.

Along with whatever is decided, there is the question of evenhandedness. But that is a question for another post. Suffice it to say that we need to take one giant step and, if Indians are allowed at all, they should be allowed with the same responsibilities and privileges accorded to members of all other nationalities. They should be eligible for holding Moderator positions and policing their own members, disciplining them when needed, defending them when needed.

In a specific response to Oscar's note, selective membership and self-regulation may work better than completely segregating the two nationalities.

Splitting of the forum is difficult but there was a feature called section ban which I felt was fairly useful in segregation.
I really do wish for this feature to return as it was EXTREMELY useful in isolating those with troublemaking tendencies in particular sections from their triggers but also allowing them to contribute productively elsewhere.

The issue has been the increased angst reflecting that between the states themselves and social issues within the populations(increased Islamophobia, Social inequality and so on).
My secret hope has always been to have this platform either fight back against thr hatred or simply promote the mutually assured destruction aspect of the hostility just so at some point the prospect of so much death breaks past the delusional immunity many in India have and the suicidal martyrdom glory on our end... not to much success I must admit, one has to face death closely.. say a close family or friend via an enemy to see the true humanity of it.

My own “tailored” responses to try and shame offensive posts or extreme ideals usually either lead to a darker path if the offender insists on being a reprehensible human being thay day, or admittedly I enjoy human idiocy at times and like the “rabbit hole” temptations of seeing what breaks the other person; perhaps less sympathetic shrink and more Hannibal lecter without the cannibalistic tendencies(of yet).

Disadvantage? advantages? To me to be honest, all this makes no sense. Only those join the defence forum who are little knowledgeable. It isn’t a platform like Facebook where you should get away with your stupid remarks on ones religion and hurt the sentiment of a huge number of people. That too when you are a TTA.
Only a person who does this in real would do it on social media as well. It’s not about Islam only. If any individual disrespect any religion SHOULD BE IMMEDIATELY BANNED without a question.
Also, most of people say, religion talks should be banned. This is impossible in my opinion. We gotta deal with rationally and admins have to be very active on forum to deal with this all.

I think you’ll find a lot of sleeping hatred that comes out here and also a fraction of sleeper goodwill bubbling under the surface.. @padamchen
Sometimes the compulsions of fraternity and assumed loyalties to kith and kin tend to mask more level headed.
Say a sip of wine to blend in with jack and John at the company party rather than completely abhoring alcohol

You thought wrong. Read the below.

View attachment 531238

Classic case of "baghal main churi/chako aur moon main ram ram".

How he became TT is beyond me. That dude always brought in the War of 1971 whenever he was losing a debate. And I have been seeing his threads since 2010.

More of his "knowledge"...

View attachment 531239

The guy was on a trolling roll. He started abusing Islam when he saw that he had lost & anger took him over. Banning him was long overdue. We already have Indian members that can contribute without going ape shit. Good riddance.


On the other hand, I say that we increase the number of mods on PDF, introduce an Indian mod (my vote goes to @Joe Shearer ) that looks to diffuse situations like the above as they're happening or have happened and dishes out bans or negative ratings to anyone posting material abusing Hinduism or India a bit too much/regularly. We also need tighter control of the trolls on this forum, of every nationality, particularly Pakistani & Indian because they form the majority.

When this is solved, we'll higher grades of discussions never before seen in the history of PDF.

Madness is like gravity.... and I shall use cliche quotes when able

This should remain an international forum as it has been. Yes differences in opinions and point of views will continue to exist based on where one grows up but the knowledge and ideas exchanged are far too valuable to let differences get in the way. Lately there has been an increasing number of trolls from various countries/regions bringing down the overall quality of the forum and increasing hostility. However all members have been somewhat putting up with that since there isn't yet an effective way to deal with this phenomenon. The trolls just come back with a different account and it becomes a whack a mole game for mods.

The above isn't the issue that arose with the recent events. The issue is being FAIR across the board. Let me explain in the few key points below
1) The member who committed the offense holds the title of "Think Tank"
--> Yes he may have become infuriated with trolls who were instigating but he took things far beyond an acceptable level with what he said...unbecoming of his title of TT. That is no way to handle it. If the trolls are being offensive u report them...even if they cross the line and insult ur religion, u do not insult their religion back and get away with it bcuz they did it first. It's simple insulting someone's religion(bcuz it's a sensitive issue) should mean a ban...no ifs or buts.

2) Even more bothersome is the fact that other members have been handed out bans or punished in other ways for far less.
--> This makes ppl even more uneasy bcuz it seems like favoritism. Punishment/bans should be handed out across the board for any violations.

IMO the forum shouldn't be made as per the wishes of Pakistanis...it should remain unbiased and equal for all internationally. Religious insults shouldn't be allowed for ANY religion bcuz other ppl give importance to their religion as much as we Pakistani Muslims do. In case a violation does happen like the one that happened...the member should be banned for a certain duration, his/her hurtful comments must be deleted, and he/she must issue an apology. Mods should use a strike system...three(or some other agreeable number) strikes and u r out(banned permanently).

Also as for a suggestion to curb trolls and improve the quality of the forum...I had this idea linked below
Prestige Points
It sort of makes the forum "democratic" giving the members of this forum to sort of "vote" on each post based on its quality. With this members can accumulate or lose prestige points.

@Nilgiri @Joe Shearer

Presence and availability of moderation is an ongoing issue and one that simply cannot be solved by over policing or by increasing the intake of lower quality moderators
There are a few voracious posters who will create the ruckus more than it being a broad stroke.

We already have the like and negative rating system that mirrors the prestiege points.. but the aspect of the forum I truly despise is the ELITE, SENIOR titles based on who posts more .. not what.

I really wish for it to be abolished and then leave the TT and TTA titles to be a mix of democratic votes and peer review.

You might as well also give him a Pakistani passport then.

I however have often said that this place should only have Pakistani mods.

They've made a right winger the mod of the Turkish section, and now that forum has effectively become a no-go area for any non Turk who has an interest in Turkish affairs or surrounding regions/ethnicities where the Turks are directly involved, because this guy just has the sub-forum power to outright ban a member.

@jamahir @Beast @opruh @rambro

Then you come back and complain. But what's the use? Its like giving a favored nationality their embassy on your soil. To do whatever they feel like.

They actually have an active thread where they converse in Turkish and decide who to target collectively and report to the moderator team so that the barrage of reports attracts attention, if not outright reprisal ("let's get this p*g banned ..."). And @Dubious got pulled into it last night, and I was simply too whacked to argue.

Its a biased move and should be reversed.

@Oscar @waz @Arsalan @WebMaster @Horus

Cheers, Doc

Mob mentality which again is going to be the issue when you have a mod from the same nation. Do you have fresh FIFA referees in the games with their own nationality?

I am for having additional international mods but for completely different or at least “neutral” sections . So the Turkish mod or Chinese mod should also be part of the Pakistani sections and vice versa.

 

[coffee_cup]

I think you’ll find a lot of sleeping hatred that comes out here and also a fraction of sleeper goodwill bubbling under the surface.. @padamchen
Sometimes the compulsions of fraternity and assumed loyalties to kith and kin tend to mask more level headed.
Say a sip of wine to blend in with jack and John at the company party rather than completely abhoring alcohol

@Oscar: All I can say is observe this person you mentioned in your post for few days to get an idea of what kind of hatred he holds against Muslims and Pakistanis.

A self proclaimed "medical doctor" by profession who strangely finds hours and hours everyday to post offensive comments against Muslims and Pakistanis on an online forum to earn a lot of negative ratings, should raise a "troll-flag" already..

 

[Dalai Lama]

More Indian members should leave on their own accord.

The only reason to visit this forum was to interact with people of different viewpoints and engage in critical thought. In the decade that I've been a member, the place has deteriorated beyond repair which is evident from notable members resorting to insults and petty remarks (I've done it myself). I don't know what happened with AUSTERLITZ but I'm not at all surprised. Favouritism and discrimination has always been systemic in this place but it was tolerable because of the aforementioned reason. However, it has become visceral and ubiquitous as of late.

Honestly, I believe exposing yourself to such nonsense can only have a detrimental effect on your perception of the world, your view on history and peoples of different cultures. I think it's unfortunate that such an advanced and effective medium of communication (information technology) is being used to spread misinformation and hatred on such a massive scale.

I really hope that the 20 something year olds from India, Pakistan and wherever else opt to spend more time learning about the world by exploring it and interacting with others face-to-face. If you are an expat who happens to live in Europe or North America, you literally have no excuse.

 

[Morpheus]

Wow, what a great solution. After reading such comments, it feels like we as a society are going towards intolerance.

Bhai, remember one thing, not all Indians are good, but all of them aren't bad either, same goes for Pakistanis. All Pakistanis aren't bad but all of them are not good either. Instead of banning all Indians, isn't it better to ban trolls, no matter what nationality they hold or what country they belong to.

"It takes two to tango" so, don't blame one side for all bad things.

The problem with our society, we like to take the high ground. "Let them be, we are better." "Words are better then actions". All this soft talks has resulted in others taking advantage of us. Enough is enough, for every 1 good indian there are 10 bad indians. If the "1" can't teach the "10", then they are as much in the wrong as the rest.

I fully support you, your proposal, and the sentiments of your signature. Your contribution will keep this forum at a glorious level, as always.

I think you have overstayed your stay here. Why don't you leave, and hug a cactus you freak.

And after the Indians,the Americans,the Europeans,the Bangladeshi,the Iranian,the Arabs and the Turks but not the Chinese,you need them.
Reminds you of anything?

Majority of trolls are indians. Its not only Pakistanis complaining about indian presence online. Ever other nationality have said indians online can never hold a proper discussion. Try posting anything on Quora, and see if you can get a proper answer. If we don't act now, this forum will turn into that.

 

[Nilgiri]

Also either make mod someone who can spend time here and is unbiased or make some kind of auto bot that automatically removes the post that contains offensive words e.g Reddit's automod.

I like that concept actually....maybe not insta-delete but say any post with certain red flag words (or whatever you design the script filter to have) gets sent to a purgatory/approval area where mods at their discretion get to look at it and vet it.....so we at least know its been sanctioned. Right now lot of riff raff trolling threads just get started and infest/fester....the culling/stoppage rate (by say a mod eventually) is awfully low....and even when it happens, the damage is often done already.

 

[VCheng]

More Indian members should leave on their own accord.

As I said above, participating in any forum is a matter of choice that each member is free to make for him/her/itself.

 

[Tps43]

I won't take names but some people whom I thought sane were mostly mentally emotionally unstable especially what I saw abt them in last couple of months , after microscopic analysis I concluded that not to take them serious and leave them at there own .
They don't deserve me and I don't have to take them seriously.
After that I am pretty satisfied with myself as there's no stress on me or proving myself .
Let them judge me by my posts and character.
So my suggestion is to keep people closer and once u know them then according to their behaviour prioritize them and don't let them overdrive ur nerves
@Mentee @Hell hound @django @Signalian @Maarkhoor @Starlord @RealNapster @Dawood Ibrahim @SherDil @Retired Troll @PakSword @thesandman @Nilgiri @Joe Shearer @jamahir @Ziggurat “TepeSialk“

 

[VCheng]

I like that concept actually....maybe not insta-delete but say any post with certain red flag words (or whatever you design the script filter to have) gets sent to a purgatory/approval area where mods at their discretion get to look at it and vet it.....so we at least know its been sanctioned. Right now lot of riff raff trolling threads just get started and infest/fester....the culling/stoppage rate (by say a mod eventually) is awfully low....and even when it happens, the damage is often done already.

That still would not do anything to improve the wildly variable moderator adjudication of such flagged material.

 

[Maarkhoor]

I won't take names but some people whom I thought sane were mostly mentally emotionally unstable especially what I saw abt them in last couple of months , after microscopic analysis I concluded that not to take them serious and leave them at there own .
They don't deserve me and I don't have to take them seriously.
After that I am pretty satisfied with myself as there's no stress on me or proving myself .
Let them judge me by my posts and character.
So my suggestion is to keep people closer and once u know them then according to their behaviour priorities them and don't let them overdrive ur nerves
@Mentee @Hell hound @django @Signalian @Maarkhoor @Starlord @RealNapster @Dawood Ibrahim @SherDil @Retired Troll @PakSword @thesandman @Nilgiri @Joe Shearer @jamahir @Ziggurat “TepeSialk“

Named the unstable one's so that we can avoid them too.

 

[Tps43]

Named the unstable one's so that we can avoid them too.

There are many of them u would know and u may know many
Some of them are newbies and some of them are title holders

 

[Dalai Lama]

As I said above, participating in any forum is a matter of choice that each member is free to make for him/her/itself.

That's obvious. No one is doing it under duress as far as I can tell. I'm just advising against it, regardless of nationality.

 

[T-123456]

Majority of trolls are indians. Its not only Pakistanis complaining about indian presence online. Ever other nationality have said indians online can never hold a proper discussion. Try posting anything on Quora, and see if you can get a proper answer. If we don't act now, this forum will turn into that.

You are right,there are many Indian(and Chinese) trolls but there also are the very good mature Indian people online.
''all Muslims are terrorists'',because of a few?
The same goes for Indians,because of a few?

 

[Nilgiri]

That still would not do anything to improve the wildly variable moderator adjudication of such flagged material.

Yes that will need to be sorted out in tandem obv (thats really the crux of the larger issue in the end). But this way at least there is less "the mod didn't see it/it didnt get reported" kind of buffer/excuse that gets passed around too much rite now (esp for real time)....and ppl can more genuinely choose if this forum is for them etc form the results of that.

 

[VCheng]

That's obvious. No one is doing it under duress as far as I can tell. I'm just advising against it, regardless of nationality.

Then what is this "if he is allowed here, I am outta here" mentality? Let each member exercise their free choice to participate or not, and let management continue to run their forum as they see fit.

Problem solved.

And the system achieves its designed results, always.

 

[Maarkhoor]

There are many of them u would know and u may know many
Some of them are newbies and some of them are title holders

You mean roaches are every where?
used Piff Puff

Believe me I will never mind to gas them. period. if I could.