Why India has been forced into defensive posture against Pakistan (explaination thread)

[Battlion25]

India has largely been quite and will remain to do so as long as Pakistan has significiant stragetic depth and it has something to do with military tactics on the ground..

1. India's long term stragetic planning was based on their believe that they can overwhelm pakistan and this is where previously assumed confidence came from but Pakistan developed a counter-measure against that which is tactical nukes balancing things this has forced the indians into 51 years of sitting tight but still not in defensive posture because still at the back of their head they had a conventional advantage to some degree and they didn't want all out war as they were deterred by tactical nukes and nukes..

2. But come 2021 they no longer believe there is conventional advantage in their calculus due to stragetic depth in Afg and both Afg-pak is an extremely harsh terrain to move any logistics in hence if you remove nukes out of the picture India losses conventionally the conflict and that is if they have offensive posture they will absolutely lose in these mountains and could lose their entire army within months in such offensive posture miscalculation..

3. Hence their military calculus and posturing is defense tactically and forcing the indians to exit there none first use policy and for the first time in their history using nukes as deterence and this change happened as soon as pakistan got stragetic depth last year..

 

[Brar]

This is why strategic policies should be left to profesionals... and kids should stick to playing COD.

 

[Battlion25]

This is why strategic policies should be left to profesionals... and kids should stick to playing COD.

Then why talk nuclear..

 

[blueazure]

This is why strategic policies should be left to profesionals... and kids should stick to playing COD.

dare you to cross LoC

my little indian

 

[Titanium100]

I have seen multiple indian intellectuals they agree with this ground reality..

India can't simply fight Pakistan with offensive doctrine it is conventionally impossible by default with an stragetic depth an impregnatable fortress Terrain.. There approach is to bait Pakistan into an offensive from a defensive posture and counter attack slowly

 

[Shehryar Ashraf]

India has largely been quite and will remain to do so as long as Pakistan has significiant stragetic depth and it has something to do with military tactics on the ground..



2. But come 2021 they no longer believe there is conventional advantage in their calculus due to stragetic depth in Afg and both Afg-pak is an extremely harsh terrain to move any logistics in hence if you remove nukes out of the picture India losses conventionally the conflict and that is if they have offensive posture they will absolutely lose in these mountains and could lose their entire army within months in such offensive posture miscalculation..

what is this strategic depth you speak of. IF India takes Lahore, its over, if India takes Islamabad its over, they dont need to brave the harsh terrain of Afghanistan, they are on our east, and not on our west. There is NO attack coming on our western border. do not confuse a bunch of militant groups with an army armed with modern weapons.

All this talk of strategic depth is nonsense. Pakistan has no strategic depth whatsover, everything, our industrial output, is on the eastern border.
the only way to have strategic depth is to make it. and that requires an offensive doctrine.

 

[Brar]

dare you to cross LoC

my little indian

Dare u to jump off a cliff head first, my little Pakistani

 

[Titanium100]

what is this strategic depth you speak of. IF India takes Lahore, its over, if India takes Islamabad its over, they dont need to brave the harsh terrain of Afghanistan, they are on our east, and not on our west. There is NO attack coming on our western border. do not confuse a bunch of militant groups with an army armed with modern weapons.

All this talk of strategic depth is nonsense. Pakistan has no strategic depth whatsover, everything, our industrial output, is on the eastern border.
the only way to have strategic depth is to make it. and that requires an offensive doctrine.

Not exactly Pakistan army will build stragetic instillations slowly in collab with afghan gov't hence it won't be over until they defeat completely Pakistan and Afghanistan in these unforgiving terrain and vast operation line The gangus being able to achieve that is zero to none..

 

[Khan vilatey]

what is this strategic depth you speak of. IF India takes Lahore, its over, if India takes Islamabad its over, they dont need to brave the harsh terrain of Afghanistan, they are on our east, and not on our west. There is NO attack coming on our western border. do not confuse a bunch of militant groups with an army armed with modern weapons.

All this talk of strategic depth is nonsense. Pakistan has no strategic depth whatsover, everything, our industrial output, is on the eastern border.
the only way to have strategic depth is to make it. and that requires an offensive doctrine.

Not really they would then need to answer to a massive insurgence and would need 2-3 million army to hold these territories allow paksitan to counter attack in Gujarat punjab and Rajestan. This is why people need to read history. I am over simplifying this to save time why paksitan won the 1965 war

1) Pakistan started an attack in Kashmir called operation Gibraltar which was going well. India had enough casualties that they were surprised

2) Indians opened the international border with paksitan where paksitan destroyed all fob india had. Giving Pakistan aerial superiority this allowed paksitan to start capturing Indian territory in Rajestatan near the Sind and punjab border

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Capture_of_Kishangarh_Fort

3) india’s attack on Lahore which was lightly defended was repulsed shocking india

So a much smaller country even was able to counter a much numerically stronger india force in multiple locations

K

 

[hussain0216]

It's because China is sitting on their neck on LAC


they have lost in Afghanistan and had 2 decades worth of efforts and expenditure destroyed

And Pakistan and alongside China has built up credible deterrence that Indians understand that a miscalculation can cost them


So they are in their box at the moment




Whilst they are in their it is our time to clear the fall out from Afghanistans fall

 

[Shehryar Ashraf]

Not exactly Pakistan army will build stragetic instillations slowly in collab with afghan gov't hence it won't be over until they defeat completely Pakistan and Afghanistan in these unforgiving terrain and vast operation line The gangus being able to achieve that is zero to none..

View attachment 813201

lets get this straight.
The Germans invaded Russia in operation barbarossa.
The russians could fight a defensive a war. (at first, but the war turned after Kursk, afterwards the Soviets went on the Offensive until they reached Berlin). They were able to fight a defensive war, because they were able to move all their factories and population east, past the urals, which the Germans could not target because it was too far away, and they ran out of oil getting to Stalingrad.

We ARE NOT RUSSIA
WE CANNOT move our industries into Afghanistan, due to the same harsh terrain present in Afghanistan.
WE cannot house 10s millions of our people in Afghanistan, the place cannot house that number, we would die in the hundreds of thousands.

Fact is we would simply either surrender/sue for peace were Islamabad/Lahore/Karachi to fall

There is no Strategic depth to be found in Afghanistan.
If you want Depth, the border must be pushed all the way to Panipat. and that is the only way forward.

Kashmir is a Sideshow, do you really expect the Gangetics to simply stop fighting if Srinagar is taken?
The only way to end the war is to threaten a march on Delhi. and that requires an offensive doctrine.

edit. the only plausible uses of Afghanistan is an oil and gas pipeline from central asia , so that Pakistan can be supplied with oil and gas, necessary to keep everything running. Pakistan could also build some missile bases in afghanistan, which could be out of range from Indian missile defense systems, there is that. maybe some airfields, but the further the fields are from the battlespace, the less payload the planes would carry.

 

[Shehryar Ashraf]

Not really they would then need to answer to a massive insurgence and would need 2-3 million army to hold these territories allow paksitan to counter attack in Gujarat punjab and Rajestan. This is why people need to read history. I am over simplifying this to save time why paksitan won the 1965 war

1) Pakistan started an attack in Kashmir called operation Gibraltar which was going well. India had enough casualties that they were surprised

2) Indians opened the international border with paksitan where paksitan destroyed all fob india had. Giving Pakistan aerial superiority this allowed paksitan to start capturing Indian territory in Rajestatan near the Sind and punjab border

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Capture_of_Kishangarh_Fort

3) india’s attack on Lahore which was lightly defended was repulsed shocking india

So a much smaller country even was able to counter a much numerically stronger india force in multiple locations

K

0) Insurgencies/guerilla warfare/ asymmetrical warfare the aim is to make the war into a political failure, the one thing the Indians have is numbers, and they wouldnt care how many of their troops would die to insurgents. plus the devastation it would have on Pakistani population, industries agriculture would be immense
1) Gibraltar had grounded to a halt, because Ayub changed its commander during the operation which is incredibly STUPID . that delay ruined everything, they could have taken Srinagar and the op would then have been a success.

2) Rajastan and it's land while it looks good on paper, it is strategically almost useless. It is entirely a desert with poor infrastructure, and little strategic resources, supplying an army to launch an offensive through Rajastan is so stupid, when there is a much easier avenue of expansion which is....

3) Lahore was the obvious target. the one thing the Gangetics dream of even today, is to drink Tea in Lahore. To leave it lightly guarded,.. I hope whoever didnt see the Indian offensive targetting lahore, I wish he got court marshalled or fired for incompetence.

A lesson to learn is the Indians will always target Lahore, any war on Kashmir, will always escalate towards an Indian Attack on Lahore, which is why the best opening is to initiate an invasion through East Punjab. It is where the Fate of the Subcontinent has always been decided, the Battles of Tarrain and Panipat. that is where to fight. not Kashmir, not Rajastan, these are secondary and tertiary fronts.

 

[Battlion25]

lets get this straight.
The Germans invaded Russia in operation barbarossa.
The russians could fight a defensive a war. (at first, but the war turned after Kursk, afterwards the Soviets went on the Offensive until they reached Berlin). They were able to fight a defensive war, because they were able to move all their factories and population east, past the urals, which the Germans could not target because it was too far away, and they ran out of oil getting to Stalingrad.

We ARE NOT RUSSIA
WE CANNOT move our industries into Afghanistan, due to the same harsh terrain present in Afghanistan.
WE cannot house 10s millions of our people in Afghanistan, the place cannot house that number, we would die in the hundreds of thousands.

Fact is we would simply either surrender/sue for peace were Islamabad/Lahore/Karachi to fall

There is no Strategic depth to be found in Afghanistan.
If you want Depth, the border must be pushed all the way to Panipat. and that is the only way forward.

Kashmir is a Sideshow, do you really expect the Gangetics to simply stop fighting if Srinagar is taken?
The only way to end the war is to threaten a march on Delhi. and that requires an offensive doctrine.

edit. the only plausible uses of Afghanistan is an oil and gas pipeline from central asia , so that Pakistan can be supplied with oil and gas, necessary to keep everything running. Pakistan could also build some missile bases in afghanistan, which could be out of range from Indian missile defense systems, there is that. maybe some airfields, but the further the fields are from the battlespace, the less payload the planes would carry.

This is low IQ satirical stuff and you just said all our tacticians are morons indirectly but that is not the case as we have gifted ppl.

You also said they don't know how to use stragetic depth peace proposal during a nuke warfare how is that even possible

Moving couple of division into AFG with stragetic weapons is not hard and in fact if India was to breach the eastern border it would by default raise red flag in kabul and they ain't just gonna sit and let this come to them as they are technically not far from Islamabad..

What are you even talking about? you can't sue for peace in nuclear war because there is no food to eat hence it is in nobodies interests to stop the fight..

Widening the operation room handicaps them since it is a harsh terrain if they push they will logistically find it difficult because they can only carry light stuff but in a counter attack we will not have these issues as the terrain is suitable for advancement.

They can't commit to an offensive doctrine simple as that.. Our terrain plus Afg terrain doesn't offer room for that by default but their terrain is smooth hence they will sit in defense to make it tough

 

[Shehryar Ashraf]

This is low IQ satirical stuff and you just said all our tacticians are morons but that is not the case as we have gifted ppl.

gifted People? who? the same people who created the BAJWA Doctrine? them?


regarding Afghanistan, you can have a pipeline, maybe an airbase, and some missile sites, they would need to be well guarded, and it would cost us financially, but that is the best Afghanistan can do. not much, and it would take time before the security situation over there improves enough to justify building military installations in afghanistan.
It would not be a decisive factor.

fighting a war inside india may be considered insane, but infinitely smarter than trying to fight a scorched earth battle inside Pakistan. lets just destroy our crop fields, remove our factories, move everyone in afghanistan,a nd try to fight them in khyber pass. lets just burn our country so that we can fight them on some mountains some where near kandahar with nothing more than an ak47 and a couple of magazines.
the person coming up with such a strategy must be "gifted" indead

 

[Battlion25]

gifted People? who? the same people who created the BAJWA Doctrine? them?


regarding Afghanistan, you can have a pipeline, maybe an airbase, and some missile sites, they would need to be well guarded, and it would cost us financially, but that is the best Afghanistan can do. not much, and it would take time before the security situation over there improves enough to justify building military installations in afghanistan.
It would not be a decisive factor.

fighting a war inside india may be considered insane, but infinitely smarter than trying to fight a scorched earth battle inside Pakistan. lets just destroy our crop fields, remove our factories, move everyone in afghanistan,a nd try to fight them in khyber pass. lets just burn our country so that we can fight them on some mountains some where near kandahar with nothing more than an ak47 and a couple of magazines.
the person coming up with such a strategy must be "gifted" indead

You are just a layman.. Everything is functional over there you don't need to move much except instillations, under ground-tunnels fortifications and ability to move divisions quickly on the otherside of the border..

Pakistan will not fight a defensive but rather an offensive one.. India will falter and collapse within the heat of the moment they aren't exactly made for this as we will outperform them easily they don't have stomach for this... We will fight many wars post India conquest hence they will not be our toughest opponents