Why China isn't bailing out Pakistan Currently?

[Solomon2]

A so called super power want to make Pakistan escape goat. Please fight in Afghanistan yourself.

Nothing so specific. Rather, look at the relationship over the decades: Pakistan, at America's begging bowl since independence, has used U.S. aid not to the betterment of its people but to secure, enrich, and glorify its self-appointed ruling classes through economic concentration and military conflicts that Pakistan itself initiated. Therefore Pakistan's elite will never eliminate Pakistan's security problems through military action or diplomatic settlement due to their fear that the U.S. dollar tap will be shut off shortly afterwards.

So ordinary Pakistanis' best hope for reform and development is that the U.S. cut off the dollar supply sooner rather than later, thus compelling necessary security and economic reforms. Pakistan's elites see this and cast about for a new host to sponge off of. China is the obvious choice but China's leaders are too cognizant of this history to fall for Pakistani leaders' blandishments and threats.

That said, the Chinese have an interest in preserving their assets and plans - especially CPEC, the strategic port the Chinese see as desirable for their security in case of another war in East Asia, but which they know otherwise won't provide either Pakistan or China with lasting economic benefits.

The Chinese have agreed to have the IMF examine CPEC. I don't doubt that the IMF will scotch the whole CPEC idea on economic grounds: shipping stuff by sea to and from China's ports is much cheaper than road and rail links through high mountains and empty deserts. The Chinese may then put off CPEC plans for another day - or era. Therefore Pakistan has no leverage to demand China bail out Pakistan.

 

[Mr ambassador]

Simple answer :


We are a corrupt nation and Chinese hate corruption and dishonesty.


They know their money/ help will be wasted.

 

[Khurram2349]

China will bail out Pakistan provided Imran Khan's Government fully understands and realizes the nature of friendship with Chinese .

Pakistani leadership , current and previous always talk about Iron friendship between Pakistan and China and say slogans like sweeter then honey and higher then Himalayas but never fully benefitted from Chinese advises in terms of strategic , defense and economic fields. We have a habit to go to China when things go wrong and out of our hand , whether they are occasions like wars with India , messing up relations with the US, or our ever present economic woes !

What any Pakistani leadership need to do is form a solid sincere and honest partnership with the Chinese . They should go for deep rooted strategic, defense and economic agreements with the Chinese , securing our own interest as well as Chinese with full frankness and ambiguity . Once they go for such partnership then learn from Chinese and clean up our problems which have been accumulated over decades of bad governance . Involve Chinese and get their advise in making our systems better , learn from them and apply to improve our governance . And dont mess up this relations through corruption , deceit, and involving other countries like US or Saudis without consent of the Chinese !

Chinese will be ready to bail out Pakistan when we are fully ready to understand and accept their bail out package !

 

[MultaniGuy]

Nothing so specific. Rather, look at the relationship over the decades: Pakistan, at America's begging bowl since independence, has used U.S. aid not to the betterment of its people but to secure, enrich, and glorify its self-appointed ruling classes through economic concentration and military conflicts that Pakistan itself initiated. Therefore Pakistan's elite will never eliminate Pakistan's security problems through military action or diplomatic settlement due to their fear that the U.S. dollar tap will be shut off shortly afterwards.

So ordinary Pakistanis' best hope for reform and development is that the U.S. cut off the dollar supply sooner rather than later, thus compelling necessary security and economic reforms. Pakistan's elites see this and cast about for a new host to sponge off of. China is the obvious choice but China's leaders are too cognizant of this history to fall for Pakistani leaders' blandishments and threats.

That said, the Chinese have an interest in preserving their assets and plans - especially CPEC, the strategic port the Chinese see as desirable for their security in case of another war in East Asia, but which they know otherwise won't provide either Pakistan or China with lasting economic benefits.

The Chinese have agreed to have the IMF examine CPEC. I don't doubt that the IMF will scotch the whole CPEC idea on economic grounds: shipping stuff by sea to and from China's ports is much cheaper than road and rail links through high mountains and empty deserts. The Chinese may then put off CPEC plans for another day - or era. Therefore Pakistan has no leverage to demand China bail out Pakistan.

Listen you zionist trash. USA used Pakistan against USSR during Afghanistan war.

Fcuk off!

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Why the fcuk is everyone expect others to bail us out when we are idiotic enough to keep electing corrupt worthless clowns whilst trying to bring down PTI who actually seems to want to make some changes and bring reform

Because nature has it's irefutable logic. Nations float or drop according to the genius of the collective. This applies to individuals. A smart hardworking individual will rise wherever they are. A dumb lazy basket will drop down whereever they are. Pakistan is where it is because of collective failure/success. And until the people get their act together crap will keep on happening again and again.

China will bail out Pakistan provided Imran Khan's Government fully understands and realizes the nature of friendship with Chinese .

Pakistani leadership , current and previous always talk about Iron friendship between Pakistan and China and say slogans like sweeter then honey and higher then Himalayas but never fully benefitted from Chinese advises in terms of strategic , defense and economic fields. We have a habit to go to China when things go wrong and out of our hand , whether they are occasions like wars with India , messing up relations with the US, or our ever present economic woes !

What any Pakistani leadership need to do is form a solid sincere and honest partnership with the Chinese . They should go for deep rooted strategic, defense and economic agreements with the Chinese , securing our own interest as well as Chinese with full frankness and ambiguity . Once they go for such partnership then learn from Chinese and clean up our problems which have been accumulated over decades of bad governance . Involve Chinese and get their advise in making our systems better , learn from them and apply to improve our governance . And dont mess up this relations through corruption , deceit, and involving other countries like US or Saudis without consent of the Chinese !

Chinese will be ready to bail out Pakistan when we are fully ready to understand and accept their bail out package !

Great post. You know they say it takes two to tango. Pakistan has been blessed with two opportunities to pull itself into the club of the developed countries.

• American/Pakistan compact evolved in 1960s
• China/Pakistan convergence with CPEC at play in the present.

Pakistan blew it with America. To just blame it on USA is just infantile and ignores that it takes two hands to clap. Plenty of countries from 1960s have made compacts with USA and used that to leverage themselves upwards. South Korea, Taiwan and Turkey are two good examples. But be that as it may it is history.

Now we have another chance with CPEC. Are we going to blow it? Sometimes I do have my doubts. For instance how far is CPEC going to go if we lecture China about Uighurs? And then after lecturing them ask "can we have some money please"?

Most important of all Pakistan is not going anywhere unless it makes radical changes. Look around you and see and study the countries that have succeeded even in a western dominated world. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Turkey. What is it about them that they succeeded? Therein lies the answers to your elexir for economic transformation.

 

[Solomon2]

...What any Pakistani leadership need to do is form a solid sincere and honest partnership with the Chinese . They should go for deep rooted strategic, defense and economic agreements with the Chinese , securing our own interest as well as Chinese with full frankness and ambiguity -

The Chinese know Pakistan did that with the U.S. and that Pakistan betrayed the U.S. numerous times over many decades. I'd bet that's one of the reasons why China explicitly says Pakistan is not a military ally of China.

 

[Syed1.]

The Chinese know Pakistan did that with the U.S. and that Pakistan betrayed the U.S. numerous times over many decades. I'd bet that's one of the reasons why China explicitly says Pakistan is not a military ally of China.

Don't put too much effort on your small brain, child

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Pak has enough resources to mend the issues!!! Only thing she requires is the right mindsets in the ruling class: ruling politicians + ~10K civil/military bureaucrats!!! Here are the immediate hidden resources for the Exchequer:

• 70% of the economy is unregistered/undocumented/untaxed (2/3rds of tax income lost)
• Under-voicing exports (billions of $ lost)
• Over-voicing imports (billions of $ lost)
• Humongous loss in the State Enterprises ((billions of $ lost)
• Illegal remittances (billions of $ lost)
• Money laundering (billions of $ lost)
• Corruption at the top-most level (billions of $ lost)
• Illegal assets in the foreign lands (350b$ lost)
• Illegal assets inside Pak ((billions of $ lost)
• etc.

 

[Yankee-stani]

• For instance many Paks will complain and lecture China about Uighurs but at the same time beg for help from China

I think thats more of a diaspora thing but when I was in Pakistan recently during the whole "we ban Ramadan episode in 2015" most people thought it was some BS crafted to taint CPEC and Sino-Pak relations gauging opinion on social media and forums can be ineffective plus I asked people living there too same response like in 2015.The Diaspora is more into the whole Uighur BS

No. He is pro Pakistan. The reason China has not given money and will not is Pakistan's fault. Would you give money to a friend who is a lazy, drug addict? No. Because you know that unless he mends his habits if you give him money he will return with the begging bowl again. This cycle will continue unless the causes are addressed.The causes are -

• corruption
• incompetence
• lack of education
• indiscipline
• mindset that is not conductive for business.
  
• too preachy but not willing to learn. For instance many Paks will complain and lecture China about Uighurs but at the same time beg for help from China
  
• etc

Because nature has it's irefutable logic. Nations float or drop according to the genius of the collective. This applies to individuals. A smart hardworking individual will rise wherever they are. A dumb lazy basket will drop down whereever they are. Pakistan is where it is because of collective failure/success. And until the people get their act together crap will keep on happening again and again.

Great post. You know they say it takes two to tango. Pakistan has been blessed with two opportunities to pull itself into the club of the developed countries.

• American/Pakistan compact evolved in 1960s
• China/Pakistan convergence with CPEC at play in the present.

Pakistan blew it with America. To just blame it on USA is just infantile and ignores that it takes two hands to clap. Plenty of countries from 1960s have made compacts with USA and used that to leverage themselves upwards. South Korea, Taiwan and Turkey are two good examples. But be that as it may it is history.

Now we have another chance with CPEC. Are we going to blow it? Sometimes I do have my doubts. For instance how far is CPEC going to go if we lecture China about Uighurs? And then after lecturing them ask "can we have some money please"?

Most important of all Pakistan is not going anywhere unless it makes radical changes. Look around you and see and study the countries that have succeeded even in a western dominated world. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Turkey. What is it about them that they succeeded? Therein lies the answers to your elexir for economic transformation.

Agreed Pakistan wont go anywhere when you got folks like Wahhabists and idiotic sectarian idiots fanning over stupid arguements over small issues like Uighurs in China or Kurds in Turkey or how "ebil Assad is killing Syrians" that are far away from our big problems like water crisis,the fact we got 3 million Afghan "namak haramis" and oppurtunistic politcians.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Pakistan betrayed the U.S.

You are I think a mature person. Not sure that you should be using such language as "betrayed" with referance to Pak/US relationship, leave that to the kids here.

The seeds of rupture between Pak and US were laid on early in the relationship in late 1950s. Pak wanted a big power to lean on to face a enemy that was significantly larger - think of tiny Belgium facing Germany and seeking entente with Britain to offset the size of Germany. US wanted Pak to be a cog in a global anti Soviet chain. Both converged on two differant points of self interest.

This convergence ruptured in 1965 because from Pakistani perspective the US should not have ceased supplies to the Pakistani war effort which was considered as 'betrayel' of the highest order and it still rankles in Pakistan. On the US side Pakistan cheated by attacking India which US needed as a hedge against communist China. The real cause of thre discord and if you have read "friends not masters" by President Ayub Khan was when China plastered the Indians in 1962 USA and Britain implored Ayub not to seize that opportunity and attack India. Things were made worse by the fact that in full knowledge of Ayub US shipped [British/French] massive amounts of military supplies to India to help her face the Chinese threat. Ayub raised hell because those weapons could be used against Pak. The US assured him that if he did not attack India they would sort out the Kasmir issue dilpomatically by pressuring India. Ayub on this promise did not attack India in 1962.

However once the Chinese threat subsided post 1962 America went back on it's word to Ayub. In fact Ayub refused to go to Kennedy's burial because he felt he had cheated him. President Ayub then made the desperate attept in 1965 which failed and it did not help that US stoped supplies. In those days even the bullets came from USA so stopping supplies crippled the war effort. This was to Pakistan second infamy by USA. This put paid to any chance of Pak/US developing a mature stable relationship. Instead it became transactional and just about bearable for both sides.

Pak has enough resources to mend the issues!!! Only thing she requires is the right mindsets in the ruling class: ruling politicians + ~10K civil/military bureaucrats!!! Here are the immediate hidden resources for the Exchequer:

• 70% of the economy is unregistered/undocumented/untaxed (2/3rds of tax income lost)
• Under-voicing exports (billions of $ lost)
• Over-voicing imports (billions of $ lost)
• Humongous loss in the State Enterprises ((billions of $ lost)
• Illegal remittances (billions of $ lost)
• Money laundering (billions of $ lost)
• Corruption at the top-most level (billions of $ lost)
• Illegal assets in the foreign lands (350b$ lost)
• Illegal assets inside Pak ((billions of $ lost)
• etc.

Great post Hakikat. I will pick up on this later. I fear you are looking at this from a perspective of a Turk.

 

[Sheepistanis]

Seemingly China isn't bailing Pakistan out because Pakistan didn't ask for it. Appearing recently in an interview, the finance minister, put it across that all options were under scrutiny and soon enough Pakistan will go for the most opportune route.
To say "Pakistan doesn't deserve China's help" are tenuous whispers from the insignificant lot, China is cognizant of Pakistan's stature as an ally and a neighbour, had Pakistan hinted for help, China would have complied in a heart beat. Comparing a strategic ally to a drunk friend is a rather immature opinion to voice.

 

[Yankee-stani]

China plastered the Indians in 1962.

1961 and 1962 was important year in geo-politics you had the Cuban Missile Crisis with the USSR and sadly the unheard Sino-Indian war that the Chinese basically wiped Indian tanks and equipment off also the invasion of Goa too by the Indian Govt so much missed geo-political oppurtunity for Pakistan

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

You are I think a mature person. Not sure that you should be using such language as "betrayed" with referance to Pak/US relationship, leave that to the kids here.

The seeds of rupture between Pak and US began were laid on early in the relationshio in late 1950s. Pak wanted a big power to lean on to face a enemy that was significantly larger - think of tiny Belgium facing Germany and seeking entente with Britain to offset the size of Germany. US wanted Pak to be a cog in a global anti Soviet chain. Both converged on two differant points of self interest.

This convergence ruptured in 1965 because from Pakistani perspective the US should not have ceased supplies to the Pakistani war effort which was considered as 'betrayel' of the highest order and it still rankles in Pakistan. On the US side Pakistan cheated by attacking India which US needed as a hedge against communist China. The real cause of thre discord and if you have read "friends not masters" by President Ayub Khan was when China plastered the Indians in 1962 USA and Britain implored Ayub not to seize that opportunity and attack India. Things were made worse by the fact that in full knowledge of Ayub US shipped [British/French] massive amounts of military supplies to India to help her face the Chinese threat. Ayub raised hell because those weapons could be used against Pak. The US assured him that if he did not attack India they would sort out the Kasmir issue dilpomatically by presuring India.

However once the Chinese threat subsided post 1962 America went back on it's word to Ayub. In fact Ayub refused to go to Kennedies burial because he felt he had heated him. President Ayub then made the desperate attept in 1965 which failed and it did not help that US stoped supplies. In those days even the bullets came from USA so stopping supplies crippled the war effort. This was to Pakistan second infamy by USA. This put paid to any chance of Pak/US developing a mature stable relationship. Instead it became transactional and just about bearable for both sides.

Let's see what President Trump is now doing for Pak!!!

• Put the KSA/GCC on a "two weeks" notice
• Declared a "Cold War" against China
• Trying to hurt the Russians wherever possible
• Declared that India's CAASATA and Iranian oil aren't open choices
• Trying to pull out troops from Afganistan
• Pushing for max embargo on Iran
• Want a thorough review of CPEC to give Pak the max benefit
• Accepted IK government via offering IMF bailout
• etc.

What more the Pak folks want????!!!! Should he also share the Stormy Daniels with them?!?! Is a simple hash-tag too much to ask for????

#ThankYouPresidentTrump

You are I think a mature person. Not sure that you should be using such language as "betrayed" with referance to Pak/US relationship, leave that to the kids here.

The seeds of rupture between Pak and US were laid on early in the relationship in late 1950s. Pak wanted a big power to lean on to face a enemy that was significantly larger - think of tiny Belgium facing Germany and seeking entente with Britain to offset the size of Germany. US wanted Pak to be a cog in a global anti Soviet chain. Both converged on two differant points of self interest.

This convergence ruptured in 1965 because from Pakistani perspective the US should not have ceased supplies to the Pakistani war effort which was considered as 'betrayel' of the highest order and it still rankles in Pakistan. On the US side Pakistan cheated by attacking India which US needed as a hedge against communist China. The real cause of thre discord and if you have read "friends not masters" by President Ayub Khan was when China plastered the Indians in 1962 USA and Britain implored Ayub not to seize that opportunity and attack India. Things were made worse by the fact that in full knowledge of Ayub US shipped [British/French] massive amounts of military supplies to India to help her face the Chinese threat. Ayub raised hell because those weapons could be used against Pak. The US assured him that if he did not attack India they would sort out the Kasmir issue dilpomatically by pressuring India. Ayub on this promise did not attack India in 1962.

However once the Chinese threat subsided post 1962 America went back on it's word to Ayub. In fact Ayub refused to go to Kennedy's burial because he felt he had cheated him. President Ayub then made the desperate attept in 1965 which failed and it did not help that US stoped supplies. In those days even the bullets came from USA so stopping supplies crippled the war effort. This was to Pakistan second infamy by USA. This put paid to any chance of Pak/US developing a mature stable relationship. Instead it became transactional and just about bearable for both sides.

Great post Hakikat. I will pick up on this later. I fear you are looking at this from a perspective of a Turk.

#WeAreAllTurks

 

[Solomon2]

...if you have read "friends not masters" by President Ayub Khan -

If you have read it then you know it's a most self-serving book.

However once the Chinese threat subsided post 1962 America went back on it's word to Ayub. In fact Ayub refused to go to Kennedies burial because he felt he had heated him.

Kennedy had been assassinated.

...President Ayub then made the desperate attept in 1965 which failed...

Pakistan invaded Kashmir while diplomatic negotiations were in progress. If you read the declassified FRUS 1965 South Asia you'll find that the justification Pakistan's leaders gave was that they were impatient and as long as they had all this fine U.S.-supplied equipment why not put it to use for conquest and glory? A diplomatic "win" might deliver territory but not the glory.

...and it did not help that US stoped supplies.

The U.S. wasn't terribly interested in helping Pakistan in what was frankly a war of conquest - it's not like the local Kashmiris supported the invaders. The supplied weapons were supposed to be used to oppose Communism. So the decisive factor became would the Soviets keep supplying India, hence the need to appeal to Moscow as a mediator, the result being the Tashkent Accords.

And the betrayals continued: human rights violations in East Pakistan and the failure to prosecute Army personnel for war crimes, diversion of U.S. aid to Pakistan's nuclear weapons program, messing up post-Soviet Afghanistan, and maintaining terror as a weapon in Afghanistan and even Pakistan itself. All while taking money from America while pledging to do otherwise.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Kennedy had been assassinated.

In 1963. China plastered India in 1962. Kennedy was in White Hosing ringing Ayub every dsay not to attack India in return for sorting out Kashmir issue by diplmatic means. Rather surprised that as a American you don't know the date of Kennedy's demise.

If you have read it then you know it's a most self-serving book.

Do you know of any book by politician or leader to be not self serving? That does not mean it has not offer us a insight.