Why Arabs lost all its wars to Israel despite outnumbering Israel in weapons and manpower?

[Michael Corleone]

ALSO Guys honestly KNOCK it OFF! .... this argument is going on to like 10 pages on this thread!



Is is NOT Top Gun ! it is as it is - A College an educational institution ! Top Gun is what i said in my previous post abt it

Why then in his certificate?

Found it. http://urbanpk.com/pakdef/pakmilitary/airforce/gallery/images/sua_05.jpg

Check the certificate pic please

 

[GuardianRED]

Why then in his certificate?

Found it. http://urbanpk.com/pakdef/pakmilitary/airforce/gallery/images/sua_05.jpg

Check the certificate pic please

Sorry but can't access the site, getting a virus warning every thing i do!. .. best u take a screen shot

 

[Michael Corleone]

Sorry but can't access the site, getting a virus warning every thing i do!. .. best u take a screen shot

 

[GuardianRED]

Alright here is a No. of Things u can research easily on your own!

First This is a training Certificate for Pilot for a particular SKILL , in this case Strafing (attack repeatedly with bombs or machine-gun fire from low-flying aircraft.) The Term TOP GUN is used here as First or ACE or Top in the class ! (nothing to do with Naval Strike and Air warfare Center popular know as Top Gun)

The Training (POSSIBLE) is to be QFI (qualified flight instructor) for the PAF Pilots on the F86 (see the insignia of the twelfth air force) by the USAF - terms of the contract for inducting the aircraft in the PAF! where in turn the Pilot can be qualified to train other pilots

Now Luke AFB at that time - Tactical Air Command with Command Crew Training Squadron which Captain Madison M. Thomas was an instructor!

 

[Joe Shearer]

lol, I was gonna reply to you but then I read the last part and thought not to engage with a zealous fanboy.

Have you seen the size and strength of Turkish navy? Turks will be in Tel Aviv by the time you'd finalize your brilliant plan to reach Turkish border via Syria by spreading out your already small forces.

And since when your 120,000 proper land forces became 'superior' to Turkey's 400,000+ land forces armed and trained along NATO standards?

Do you know--in 1948--we (our irregular tribals+ sprinkle of regular troops) conquered 4x the size of entire Israel in the Northern region (Now called Gilgit-Baltistan. Beautiful land!). We still hold it (while indians hold the rest of kashmir valley and Jamu).

Point is, Jews barely got a state of their own..and that too a small, tiny land with not even 10 million citizens.

For you to think you can just "crush" historical superpowers and modern day regional powers like Turkey etc is only reflective of why Jews could never get their own state and were decimated by big boys in the town (Some big boys like the Turks saved Jews by sending their naval fleet to Spain. Read up). Don't act like the kid who got a lottery and now thinks he is the same league as self-made millionaires.

Show up humility and sense of reality.

Turkey is a far more balanced power--with land area, population, military, international ties, military experience, and historical knowledge of ruling/navigating the region you call Israel now.

You don't want to find out what happens in a Turkey vs Israel war. It's for your own sake.

@AUz

That was an exaggeration of major proportions.

In 1948, the Gilgit Scouts, the State Forces of Chitral, and no tribals at all took over Gilgit-Baltistan from a couple of battalions of J&K State forces. Most of the casualties were caused by the massacre of a Sikh-Dogra column ambushed by the Gilgit Scouts under Alexander Brown at a time when they had no clue that there was an uprising (Brown got an MBE and the Hilal-e-Pakistan for his mutiny). Most of the resistance was due to a valiant Gurkha officer from the State forces who held out in Skardu until he and his garrison were starved out.

No Indian Army units were involved.

The Indian Army forced open the Zoji La, and relieved Leh, in Ladakh, also besieged by the same columns that had attacked Skardu, and had gone on to capture Kargil. They then took back Kargil. It was at this point of time that the ceasefire was declared.

I realise that you are making a point to a fanboy, who needs to be told the facts in clear and plain terms and bluntly. But this throw-away remark was a bit much.

 

[Beny Karachun]

1. Then how did he train in Luke Air Force base ?
2. Why don't you mention the 3rd link. Why are you avoiding talking about that?
3. It's formed by air force for honoring all nations best pilots
4. Check in wiki... it states 1000. And the sources are reliable too
5. Palestine atleast was much before world war 2. When you guys flocked from Germany and Europe. Though there was small Jewish population too.
6. Yeah with the HEAT charges.

YES I READ ABOUT THAT ENGAGEMENT. I DONT KNOW BUT WAS EGYPTIANS POORLY TRAINED?

He proved your earlier statements wrong too. For which I gave him a thanks rating

1. HE DIDN'T TRAIN IN THE LUKE AIR FORCE BASE, Maybe he was a part of Red Flag, which I am not so sure about
2. 3rd link was a part of that Eagle association WHICH IS NOT A SOURCE, its not official, neither a part of the USAF.
3. But this is NOT an official association, and you lied countless times by saying its a part of the USAF LYING AGAIN
4. I checked and its the truth! Egypt had 1700 tanks in the war!
5. No it wasn't! It was never a state! it was only name of land, named by the Romans and Greeks! Israel was much before the Romans even were an empire!
6. What's your point? I said that the Egyptians had advanced ATGMs

The Egyptians were trained by the Soviets, which were also beaten up by the Israelis in operation Rimon 20 in 1970

And no, he didn't prove wrong any of my statement, he said that that Top Gun bullshit is for training Americans and not others.

 

[GuardianRED]

1. HE DIDN'T TRAIN IN THE LUKE AIR FORCE BASE, Maybe he was a part of Red Flag, which I am not so sure about
2. 3rd link was a part of that Eagle association WHICH IS NOT A SOURCE, its not official, neither a part of the USAF.
3. But this is NOT an official association, and you lied countless times by saying its a part of the USAF LYING AGAIN
4. I checked and its the truth! Egypt had 1700 tanks in the war!
5. No it wasn't! It was never a state! it was only name of land, named by the Romans and Greeks! Israel was much before the Romans even were an empire!
6. What's your point? I said that the Egyptians had advanced ATGMs

The Egyptians were trained by the Soviets, which were also beaten up by the Israelis in operation Rimon 20 in 1970

And no, he didn't prove wrong any of my statement, he said that that Top Gun bullshit is for training Americans and not others.

Pal calm down ! can't say for the rest of the points but for Point 1)

Red flag started in the late 70s , if you see the certificate he has posted and my reply post #394

 

[Michael Corleone]

Alright here is a No. of Things u can research easily on your own!

First This is a training Certificate for Pilot for a particular SKILL , in this case Strafing (attack repeatedly with bombs or machine-gun fire from low-flying aircraft.) The Term TOP GUN is used here as First or ACE or Top in the class ! (nothing to do with Naval Strike and Air warfare Center popular know as Top Gun)

The Training (POSSIBLE) is to be QFI (qualified flight instructor) for the PAF Pilots on the F86 (see the insignia of the twelfth air force) by the USAF - terms of the contract for inducting the aircraft in the PAF! where in turn the Pilot can be qualified to train other pilots

Now Luke AFB at that time - Tactical Air Command with Command Crew Training Squadron which Captain Madison M. Thomas was an instructor!

Yeah. He trained in US for that specific jet. F-86 around the time Pakistan inducted those. After the training he became head of this own squadron. So I think he also served as instructor then.

1. HE DIDN'T TRAIN IN THE LUKE AIR FORCE BASE, Maybe he was a part of Red Flag, which I am not so sure about
2. 3rd link was a part of that Eagle association WHICH IS NOT A SOURCE, its not official, neither a part of the USAF.
3. But this is NOT an official association, and you lied countless times by saying its a part of the USAF LYING AGAIN
4. I checked and its the truth! Egypt had 1700 tanks in the war!
5. No it wasn't! It was never a state! it was only name of land, named by the Romans and Greeks! Israel was much before the Romans even were an empire!
6. What's your point? I said that the Egyptians had advanced ATGMs

The Egyptians were trained by the Soviets, which were also beaten up by the Israelis in operation Rimon 20 in 1970

And no, he didn't prove wrong any of my statement, he said that that Top Gun bullshit is for training Americans and not others.

1. Check the certificate.
2. Define official source
3. It's said to be founded by members of USAF. Former Graduates among them. Which I mentioned previously.
4. You saying this is the truth doesn't mean it's the truth. Check wiki again. And if you edit wiki for your agenda... it will be reverted back to so careful.
5.

Dates back to 1927. Check world map from that era... no country called Israel. It's only after the Arab defeat that Israel annexed Palestinian land. Since post ww2 and British proposal of land division and the wars. 1946 Israel was still non existent. Well I can only say that about Palestine now.
6. ATGMs were using HEAT round charged explosives basically dating back to end of world war 2 and advancing post war. For which chobham armor was developed by the brits. No points just facts to share.

 

[Beny Karachun]

Yeah. He trained in US for that specific jet. F-86 around the time Pakistan inducted those. After the training he became head of this own squadron. So I think he also served as instructor then.


1. Check the certificate.
2. Define official source
3. It's said to be founded by members of USAF. Former Graduates among them. Which I mentioned previously.
4. You saying this is the truth doesn't mean it's the truth. Check wiki again. And if you edit wiki for your agenda... it will be reverted back to so careful.
5.

Dates back to 1927. Check world map from that era... no country called Israel. It's only after the Arab defeat that Israel annexed Palestinian land. Since post ww2 and British proposal of land division and the wars. 1946 Israel was still non existent. Well I can only say that about Palestine now.
6. ATGMs were using HEAT round charged explosives basically dating back to end of world war 2 and advancing post war. For which chobham armor was developed by the brits. No points just facts to share.

1. I got many claims against this certificate- First of all, It began as the United States Navy Fighter Weapons School, established on March 3, 1969, and this certificate claims it to be from 1961. second It was WAY before the 1973 war.
2. Official source- Neutral, reliable, and made by interviews and facts.
3. SO ITS NOT A PART OF THE USAF AS YOU CLAIMED!
4. This is the coin of BRITISH MANDATE OF PALESTINE, Not Palestine.
If Palestine ever existed for hundreds of years like the Palestinians claim, why wont you give me their currency, passport and president between 1918 (Fall of the Ottoman Empire) to 1922 (Start of the British Mandate)?
5. YES, NO COUNTRY WAS CALLED ISRAEL AT THE TIME! But neither Palestine was, it was a name of an area, originally called "Syria Palestina" by the Romans, named after the PHILISTINES, not Palestinians.
6. Well yeah, but there is no point to share those facts since I already know that

 

[Michael Corleone]

1. I got many claims against this certificate- First of all, It began as the United States Navy Fighter Weapons School, established on March 3, 1969, and this certificate claims it to be from 1961. second It was WAY before the 1973 war.
2. Official source- Neutral, reliable, and made by interviews and facts.
3. SO ITS NOT A PART OF THE USAF AS YOU CLAIMED!
4. This is the coin of BRITISH MANDATE OF PALESTINE, Not Palestine.
If Palestine ever existed for hundreds of years like the Palestinians claim, why wont you give me their currency, passport and president between 1918 (Fall of the Ottoman Empire) to 1922 (Start of the British Mandate)?
5. YES, NO COUNTRY WAS CALLED ISRAEL AT THE TIME! But neither Palestine was, it was a name of an area, originally called "Syria Palestina" by the Romans, named after the PHILISTINES, not Palestinians.
6. Well yeah, but there is no point to share those facts since I already know that

1. Perhaps you might want to read @GuardianRED explaination #394 and now I understood it well enough
2. Neutral, 3rd link. Reliable 1&2 link. And full of facts!
3. Read my previous comment carefully. Members of air force graduate school etc and organization made by pilots to honor the best among em.
4. The question you should be asking is... why was the Palestinian state divided by UN after the war in 1947 and proposed in 46? And why was the European Jews not allowed to settle in their original land in Germany and elsewhere. Why there was a sudden call for establishment of Jewish state within another state.
5. Palestine is mapped in war maps from world war 2 campaign during Ottoman Empire and till before Arab Israeli war. By then israel was fairly good in size. After the war and over the years illegal settlements on West Bank made Palestine non existent. There is nothing to argue about. Everyone knows this.
6. Good if you know them. Can you pls calm your tits. Don't act like all typical stereotypes who think cristians and Muslims are your enemy.

 

[DavidSling]

1. Perhaps you might want to read @GuardianRED explaination #394 and now I understood it well enough
2. Neutral, 3rd link. Reliable 1&2 link. And full of facts!
3. Read my previous comment carefully. Members of air force graduate school etc and organization made by pilots to honor the best among em.
4. The question you should be asking is... why was the Palestinian state divided by UN after the war in 1947 and proposed in 46? And why was the European Jews not allowed to settle in their original land in Germany and elsewhere. Why there was a sudden call for establishment of Jewish state within another state.
5. Palestine is mapped in war maps from world war 2 campaign during Ottoman Empire and till before Arab Israeli war. By then israel was fairly good in size. After the war and over the years illegal settlements on West Bank made Palestine non existent. There is nothing to argue about. Everyone knows this.
6. Good if you know them. Can you pls calm your tits. Don't act like all typical stereotypes who think cristians and Muslims are your enemy.

It wasn't "Palestine" state, cause there was no such state, the whole area was called Palestine geograpichly and was ruled by the British Mandate.
The same one that obeyed the UN decision on 2 states and left and only the arabs declined and started to attack palestinian jews.
Don't change "facts" to suit ur needs, cause it's not working like that.

 

[Michael Corleone]

It wasn't "Palestine" state, cause there was no such state, the whole area was called Palestine geograpichly and was ruled by the British Mandate.
The same one that obeyed the UN decision on 2 states and left and only the arabs declined and started to attack palestinian jews.
Don't change "facts" to suit ur needs, cause it's not working like that.

You see and that's my question.... was the division necessary? The British uses this doctrine of divide and rule and look they have done to India. This is what I am against. There should've never been division. Now is any single party living in peace? Neither Israelis because hamas and neither are Palestinians because Israel.

The region was called Palestine and wasn't under any other Arab country was it. It was an autonomous region of its own. Until post world war results

 

[DavidSling]

You see and that's my question.... was the division necessary? The British uses this doctrine of divide and rule and look they have done to India. This is what I am against. There should've never been division. Now is any single party living in peace? Neither Israelis because hamas and neither are Palestinians because Israel.

The region was called Palestine and wasn't under any other Arab country was it. It was an autonomous region of its own. Until post world war results

Jews wanted a safe home where they can govern themselves, and arabs believed that all the middle east belonged to them.
either way, 1 country for 2 people wouldn't survive

 

[Michael Corleone]

Jews wanted a safe home where they can govern themselves, and arabs believed that all the middle east belonged to them.
either way, 1 country for 2 people wouldn't survive

But Jews were persecuted in Europe. Oh well... guess they just wanted a country of their own. I am not sure though that everyone wanted a division... Arabs certainly not. Would survive if they learnt to co exist... well human failure. Nothing else to blame here.

 

[DavidSling]

But Jews were persecuted in Europe. Oh well... guess they just wanted a country of their own. I am not sure though that everyone wanted a division... Arabs certainly not. Would survive if they learnt to co exist... well human failure. Nothing else to blame here.

For that exact reason, Jews wanted a home land where they can defend and live their own life, without going like lambs to the slaughter like in nazy germany