Why A Medium / Heavy Strike Aircraft For Defense of Pakistan?

[imadul]

True S400 can move, but if its moving its not firing and it isnt difficult to tract ot while moving. That is when you can hit it with more conventional SOW like h2, h4, Ra'ad, jdam, ls-6 ect.

The whole point is to throw IAF game plan off. Hit the FOBs and take the reach of S400 out of play.

With 1-2 bombers and AWACS in air at any given time (during high tensions) PAF could take out 1-2 FOB or SAM batteries in the very early hours of a conflict.

Commmmeon Tank131. U r definitely bloody civilian like I, lol.
How the heck u acquire, reacquie target coord of a moving object in a dynamic hostile environment.
As much faith i have in PAF human skills, it lacks capable equipments and numbers whatever reasons. Dont underestimate IAF. As you yourself aptly put, MKI will be lurking in large numbers. Pak should explore a med/heavy multirole option like SU-35. 2 BILLION not huge amount for 24 copies. It will make IAF think as you also pointed. We talk about FC-31, but it will take time to mature.

 

[Khafee]

Use existing C-130s in a slightly different role. Develop/acquire drones with more payload capacity and longer range. For the creative mind any number of workarounds exist.

This is how I analyse situations. Forget about constraints and go all out to find the optimized solution. Now start adding constraints one by one and see how the solutions changes. One benefit of this approach is that it forces you to prioritize between constraints. It also gives you a sense of the marginal loss of optimality incurred due to each constraint. It can change you whole perception of the constraint and force you to try and remove it.

This is how military planners think

Agreed there is a weak spot. How much of an advantage that gives PAF is debatable.

A lot will depend on real time Sat Surveillance and comm with Stand off missiles / CM en route.

 

[MastanKhan]

The problem is after launching from stand off distance they will be gone... Gone for ever. India will simply send MKIs in the direction vector the missiles are approaching ( dont forget they have a range of 2000km) and how did u forget dozens of navel assets and ships in the area that can shoot down anything that flies out of paks territory?

Funny part is every fanboy on this forum comes up with a scenario saying Pakistan will attack like this like that knock out FOBs but the fact is india only uses light fighters and interceptor from its FOBs. The major figher groups are located way behind and they dont even need to operate from these fobs. India will rain down hundreds or cruise missiles in the opening hrs of battle on your fobs it will atleast take a day to repair and take off from them. And u dont even need s400 to shoot down barbur or whatever a light fighter with a AAM can do the job. S400 will be offline until its really needed ther are tons of other sams and radars that can track anything in Pakistans skies. Dont forget there are recon sats giving live info on landings and take offs on all your bases even in peace time. And like last time you can't hide ur fighters in a foreign country to protect them for later in the war

Hi,

Okay---thank you---you be happy.

 

[Tank131]

Commmmeon Tank131. U r definitely bloody civilian like I, lol.
How the heck u acquire, reacquie target coord of a moving object in a dynamic hostile environment.
As much faith i have in PAF human skills, it lacks capable equipments and numbers whatever reasons. Dont underestimate IAF. As you yourself aptly put, MKI will be lurking in large numbers. Pak should explore a med/heavy multirole option like SU-35. 2 BILLION not huge amount for 24 copies. It will make IAF think as you also pointed. We talk about FC-31, but it will take time to mature.

I agree its difficult to keep an eye on a moving target but with AWACS and A2G radar like that in the nose of H-6K and drones overhead it is possible. And it is possible to hit that target with other weapons like those mentioned above or even drones. The point is to try to keep the s400s moving so that they are only able to fire for limited time.

 

[CriticalThought]

Established: Use C-130 as bomb truck in Afghanistan. I like the idea by @Sarge of using autonomous drones but I want to propose a solution that can be adopted today or within a reasonable time. If such drones do become available and can match the payload of C-130, or for any reason they are found more viable, then let's go for it.

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Established: For the case of CAS at the tactical level, PA's current approach of attack helis combined with drones and decoys to confuse short range SAMs is best. I do not envisage the need of bombers for CAS. That said, the attack helis will need to be in considerable numbers. I think we need a dedicated CAS Corps with attack heli regiments over time. From an investment point of view, we need to balance out between tanks/artillery/helis because each one brings unique capabilities to the battlefield.

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Established: A dedicated bomber such as H-6K loaded with LACMs can be used to saturate frontline Indian defences in the SEAD/DEAD role. The benefit of air launch over land launch is the added range due to firing from a height. The bombers would operate within Pakistani territory to avoid enemy SAM attacks.

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For CAS of naval assets, here is the scenario. Indian attack ships are within the approx 800nm radius of PAFs attack aircrafts (https://defence.pk/threads/jf-17s-ferry-and-combat-ranges.462726/) calculated as half of the approx. max range of F-16s to take into account two way trip plus combat time. I propose using the jet-fighters purely as escorts and use bombers to deliver the punch to naval assets. Remember the bombers can be drones or modified transport aircraft.

 

[Signalian]

True S400 can move, but if its moving its not firing and it isnt difficult to tract ot while moving. That is when you can hit it with more conventional SOW like h2, h4, Ra'ad, jdam, ls-6 ect.

Get location of S-400 from agents/contacts on ground in India.
Use SSW to not only destroy S-400 but keep S-400 on the move by constantly hunting it. Best time to take it out is during an ambush in convoy movement because when it will deployed there were will at least 1-2 Air Defence regiment worth troops protecting it.

 

[Tank131]

Again going back to original idea, all this is predicated on PAF thinking past the notion of fighter aircraft for acquisition. They need strategic bombers that can be near the heart of the defensive strategy as the main stand off offensive weapon in the early part of war.

 

[araz]

Use existing C-130s in a slightly different role. Develop/acquire drones with more payload capacity and longer range. For the creative mind any number of workarounds exist.

This is how I analyse situations. Forget about constraints and go all out to find the optimized solution. Now start adding constraints one by one and see how the solutions changes. One benefit of this approach is that it forces you to prioritize between constraints. It also gives you a sense of the marginal loss of optimality incurred due to each constraint. It can change you whole perception of the constraint and force you to try and remove it.



Not against weak enemies such as Afghan Army, and also NOT in a radar avoidance mode where the longer range means you can take a very roundabout way to get close to the enemy. Pair this with standoff range weapons and you have a viable solution.



Unit cost of brand new C-130: C-130E, $11.9, C-130H, $30.1, C-130J, $48.5 (FY 1998 constant dollars in millions)
http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/FactSheets/Display/tabid/224/Article/104517/c-130-hercules.aspx

Again, where there is a will, there is a way.



Forget about winning wars if you don't have an appetite for risk. Calculated risks MUST be taken during war because usually the enemy least expects such an attack. It makes you unpredictable and forces the enemy to plan for the unknown, increasing the cost of war for him.

Are you telling me your war planning is centred around Indian missile strikes?

OK!! Lets analyze further. C130 modification has been done and I believe PAF at least has 1 such platform if rumours are to be believed. If I remember correctly it costs a pretty penny .What I dont know is whether it contravenes any end user agreement. However we can leave that aside as platforms can vary.
Cons. Only valuable for the western border. So limited utility.
Long range drones. If I remember correctly beyond 600 miles you need a satellite to communicate with the plane. You will have to be on beidou if you want to access your drone. Probably being worked on. On our own we dont have enough satellites to do so.
You have very conveniently calculated costs in 1998 dollars. I suggest that you multiply it 2.5 times to get modern day costs. Add service and support agreement and the price hikes up to double. As an example,The cost of 16s if in 90s was 36million dollars why were you paying 700 million for 8 planes? That too without the ammo.
You talk about risks. War is risky and people put their lives on the line for their country. As such it is your responsibility as a planmer to ensure you dont take it lightly. Try thinking of it this way. Would you send your brother or father on this mission. Let me know. You talk of calculated risk but this is suicidal so I think you need to think this out. Remember calculated risk does not mean kami kazi missions which is what this would be on the Eastern border due to missile coverage over adversary territory. I dont think the western border would need C130 as it would be. Heaper to carry out attacks with a helicopter or thunder for specific strike.
I think the finances are a major hold up for PAF. It has held back their genuine needs as there simply is no money to pay for the acquisitions. I gather a couple of years ago you were having difficulty paying back the interest which is amounting to a fair percentage of the country's GDP. SO THE WILL MIGHT BE THERE HOWEVER THE WAY IS RATHER LIMITED. The other problem is convincing the politicians of the need for a system which throughout its life may never see action. It is far more difficult than you think considering we have desperate shortage of energy impeding industrual growth and military acquisitions have to be balanced against the commercial needs of the country.
What made you think my war planning was centered around Indian missile attacks. Such was not my intention.Please elaborate and we can carry on.
A

 

[Signalian]

Hi,

Mumbai is the achilles heel of the opponent---it is an easier and reachable target---it is the wealth and economic center of the enemy---it is the jugular vein---. Cut it---and you have the enemy bleeding bad---.

That can also be done by using proxies on the ground instead of firing missiles or even sending aircrafts.

This is how it has happened in Karachi.

 

[CriticalThought]

OK!! Lets analyze further. C130 modification has been done and I believe PAF at least has 1 such platform if rumours are to be believed. If I remember correctly it costs a pretty penny .What I dont know is whether it contravenes any end user agreement. However we can leave that aside as platforms can vary.
Cons. Only valuable for the western border. So limited utility.
Long range drones. If I remember correctly beyond 600 miles you need a satellite to communicate with the plane. You will have to be on beidou if you want to access your drone. Probably being worked on. On our own we dont have enough satellites to do so.
You have very conveniently calculated costs in 1998 dollars. I suggest that you multiply it 2.5 times to get modern day costs. Add service and support agreement and the price hikes up to double. As an example,The cost of 16s if in 90s was 36million dollars why were you paying 700 million for 8 planes? That too without the ammo.
You talk about risks. War is risky and people put their lives on the line for their country. As such it is your responsibility as a planmer to ensure you dont take it lightly. Try thinking of it this way. Would you send your brother or father on this mission. Let me know. You talk of calculated risk but this is suicidal so I think you need to think this out. Remember calculated risk does not mean kami kazi missions which is what this would be on the Eastern border due to missile coverage over adversary territory. I dont think the western border would need C130 as it would be. Heaper to carry out attacks with a helicopter or thunder for specific strike.
I think the finances are a major hold up for PAF. It has held back their genuine needs as there simply is no money to pay for the acquisitions. I gather a couple of years ago you were having difficulty paying back the interest which is amounting to a fair percentage of the country's GDP. SO THE WILL MIGHT BE THERE HOWEVER THE WAY IS RATHER LIMITED. The other problem is convincing the politicians of the need for a system which throughout its life may never see action. It is far more difficult than you think considering we have desperate shortage of energy impeding industrual growth and military acquisitions have to be balanced against the commercial needs of the country.
What made you think my war planning was centered around Indian missile attacks. Such was not my intention.Please elaborate and we can carry on.
A

So if you keep reading my posts, you will see how the transports can be used on the eastern front as well without jeopardizing safety. No need to explain the same thing over and over again.

Determining the optimal cost point involves balancing between the capabilites offered by the various versions, and also making the buy new vs used decision. Also a cutting edge fighter with significant upgrades will be much different from a transport aircraft. You can't use the F-16 example for the C-130. Maintenance shouldn't be a problem because PAC Kamra already does maintenance on the C-130.

Again read all my posts to understand the action on the different fronts. A heli or a light/medium fighter will never compare with the capacity of a bomber. Also, if you read my posts, why increase the wear on our top fighters against the Afghans? We need a low cost yet high impact strategy. A modified transport with guidance kits mounted on dumb bombs fulfills this beautifully and is available today. Remember transports are workhorses so wear is not that much of a problem. Especially if acquired second hand.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

Transports are also useful for mass mobilization. Look up my thread on Pak Army's mass mobilization strategy.

Look at the end of your last post for whatever you were trying to say about Indian sending nuclear missiles.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Again read all my posts to understand the action on the different fronts. A heli or a light/medium fighter will never compare with the capacity of a bomber. Also, if you read my posts, why increase the wear on our top fighters against the Afghans? We need a low cost yet high impact strategy. A modified transport with guidance kits mounted on dumb bombs fulfills this beautifully and is available today. Remember transports are workhorses so wear is not that much of a problem. Especially if acquired second hand.

why do we need bombers for afghanistan care to explain

 

[Signalian]

Established: For the case of CAS at the tactical level, PA's current approach of attack helis combined with drones and decoys to confuse short range SAMs is best. I do not envisage the need of bombers for CAS. That said, the attack helis will need to be in considerable numbers. I think we need a dedicated CAS Corps with attack heli regiments over time. From an investment point of view, we need to balance out between tanks/artillery/helis because each one brings unique capabilities to the battlefield.

I cant make out if you are talking about heavy bomber or a strike fighter but sorties of bombing missions for CAS are required in kashmir and Punjab regions. Aircraft which can drop 250/500 KG bombs with JDAM kits possibly otherwise unguided can do also against infantry formations which are well entrenched in mountains and plains.

 

[CriticalThought]

I cant make out if you are talking about heavy bomber or a strike fighter but sorties of bombing missions for CAS are required in kashmir and Punjab regions. Aircraft which can drop 250/500 KG bombs with JDAM kits possibly otherwise unguided can do also against infantry formations which are well entrenched in mountains and plains.

Sir, in the long run I envisage attack helis + drones to bear the brunt of that role. Surgical strikes can be used against hardened targets of high value (command centres, silos, ammunition dumps, critical infrastructure, etc.) but in a face off with militants it is much more feasible for commanders to order a drone or heli strike. My understanding is that drones can carry exactly the same JDAMs as aircraft.

 

[Humble Analyst]

Well said. It's worth adding that the bomber unit wouldn't come alive in the thick of the war, but likely in the very first moments when hostilities truly begin. As both capitals bark at one another, the PAF would begin loading LACMs onto the bombers and having aircrew, engineers and technicians at the ready. Dispersal bases in other parts of the country, especially out in the west, will also be activated, so as to prevent the bombers from being destroyed in one assault. With the bombers, the PAF would basically begin bludgeoning from the onset with the aim of destroying as much of the IAF's forward forces on the ground as possible. This is a valid approach.

If coupled with further LACM development, especially in the area of range extension and guided sub-munitions, the latter enabling area attacks using a handful of LACMs, then the PAF's offensive stride can be a problem. The JF-17s, especially the AESA-equipped Block-III, can provide credible air defence coverage to protect ground assets, including bombers on the ground, while - in time - the FC-31/next-gen fighter could be utilized to engage in air interdiction and tactical air-to-ground operations against specific targets of interest. If not to take anything from India, then to simply make it difficult for India to mobilize an assault (i.e. repeatedly throw them off and delay), and create room for successive bomber strikes.

With the bomber force, the PAF's 'plus-one' fighter would essentially need to be optimized for air superiority. The F-16s will obviously suffice, especially if the Block-52+ can be upgraded to V and if the MLUs get a bespoke SLEP and V-like upgrade via TAI or LM. Alternatively, those surplus Typhoons from Italy don't look as bad; they're not great attack jets, but if the bombers are present, attack is not necessary, the PAF just needs to work on the electronics and AAM element.

Putting too much faith in F16 Block 52+, how reliable they are in a situation when USA is not in favor of Pakistan India war? I see the faith in eff solah is too much, just saying

 

[Ultima Thule]

Sir, in the long run I envisage attack helis + drones to bear the brunt of that role. Surgical strikes can be used against hardened targets of high value (command centres, silos, ammunition dumps, critical infrastructure, etc.) but in a face off with militants it is much more feasible for commanders to order a drone or heli strike. My understanding is that drones can carry exactly the same JDAMs as aircraft.

But 2 or 3 of drones are enough for militants and please why do we need Bombers for Afghanistan care to explain ?