Why A Medium / Heavy Strike Aircraft For Defense of Pakistan?

[CriticalThought]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Tank131 many thanks for clarifying the case of bombers in the case of anti-radiation attacks.

For the case of CAS at the tactical level, I think PA's current approach of attack helis combined with drones and decoys to confuse short range SAMs is best. I do not envisage the need of bombers for CAS. That said, the attack helis will need to be in considerable numbers. I think we need a dedicated CAS Corps with attack heli regiments over time. From an investment point of view, we need to balance out between tanks/artillery/helis because each one brings unique capabilities to the battlefield.

To summarize, the CAS role is best served by elements other than bombers.

 

[Tank131]

I agree with you on this, my recommendation for bombers is stand off strike. CAS is better achieved by other resources like Mirage 5 (H-2,H-4, bombs, and even Ra'ad in certain cases), JF-17 (GB-6), and I would also look at Helis, drones, and invest in K-8 for a ground attack varient. The cheapest to operate however would be a fixed wing turbo-prob like Hurkus or Super Tucano.

 

[CriticalThought]

Thanks for the kind words. As for using the C-130 to essentially carpet bomb Afghanistan, I would be wary of using a hammer to swat a bee, you will likely miss your target and break your friend's nose. The Afghan theater is a place where heavy or even medium-light strike fighters like JF-17, Mirage 3/5, and F-16 can play a valuable role. With precision munitions and air superiority clearly in PAF favor you dont need to resort to heavy bombers (especially when going after terrorist in populated areas). The idea is hitting TTP, not killing Afghans. They are already anti-Pakistani, you dont want a worsened situation when bombing civilian neighborhoods and hospitals/power stations.

Modified K-8s would also be very reasonable in this endeavor, as would TAI Hurkus or EMB Super Tucano (less expensive to operate).

I already presented my modified views on carpet bombing - it is not really effective. I am looking at guidance kits attached to dumb bombs and then dropped from a bomber. Something akin to

http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2004-1250

And the reason for C-130 is because it is with us here and now and carries a large capacity. I am against using F-16s because many of them are nearing 8000 hours limit, and it gives India an easy way to engage us in Afghanistan and basically wear down our top fighters. Something like Afghanistan, and I am talking Afghan Army not TTP, needs a low cost solution that gets the point across.

With the TTP etc., America is helping us already so using F-16s in that scenario makes sense.

 

[imadul]

In those 2 days you will have taken for A90B to reach Indian targets, you will have lost 1/3 of the PAF fleet in the air or on the ground. Oh btw those subs arent exactly not going to be hunted. Until you have your full compliment of 11 subs (8 S-20 and 3 A-90B) those subs are in Pakistani waters guarding against blockade. And even with LACM from subs you still havent done anything to deter IAF Air-dominance. Zero. The ONLY way to level the playing field enough to deter a full scale assault is 1) use nukes (not a really legitimate strategy if not facing annihilation, but by then your country and infrastructure and military will be in taters leaving them as a last resort), 2) buy many more fighters (which PAF cant afford), 3) buy a handful of strategic bombers (you can call them Cruise Missile trucks if it makes it feel any better) and develop the air-launched Babur.

Well, yes if PN command will be waiting to position till an official announcement on PAS.
1/3 will go with or without Agosta/S-XX.
Not an expert by any stretch, but how any bomber can strike deep with S400 lurking around. LRSO can be developed. But platform? Something like SU-35? ALCM Ra'ad as SOW.
Range will be an issue with SOW, to fire from a safe distance away from S400 and reach deep in enemy territory.
Modern warfare is not one dimensional. Air, land, sea assets have to be deployed. Since Pak is thin and long, assets from 5th province The Sea and from air has to be launched.
And people dont assume Pak will always remain a poor beggar. Thats more cynical than Diogenes.

 

[Tank131]

Well, yes if PN command will be waiting to position till an official announcement on PAS.
1/3 will go with or without Agosta/S-XX.
Not an expert by any stretch, but how any bomber can strike deep with S400 lurking around. LRSO can be developed. But platform? Something like SU-35? ALCM Ra'ad as SOW.
Range will be an issue with SOW, to fire from a safe distance away from S400 and reach deep in enemy territory.
Modern warfare is not one dimensional. Air, land, sea assets have to be deployed. Since Pak is thin and long, assets from 5th province The Sea and from air has to be launched.
And people dont assume Pak will always remain a poor beggar. Thats more cynical than Diogenes.

Dude please read my post. I actually spent some time formulating my thoughts, it would be nice if you read them . An air launched Babur would have a theoretical range in excess of 1000km which is far more than the S400. H-6K can carry 6 Babur (probably more if arranged in similar configuration to how B-52 carries ALCM). H-6K can attack S400 from over 1000km away with up to 6 ALCM varients of Babur.

 

[MastanKhan]

At least I have never been against a bomber. I am progressing the discussion in little pieces. The C-130 is my low cost solution for the here and now against Afghanistan.

.

Hi,

You are not progressing the discussion---.

The problem is that you do not know much about the technicality but you do know and understand this much that there is a LACK of massive fire power in the Paf.

So---I will give you credit for understanding that part---and I will give you bonus for not falling for the fake supporters of Paf.

Aerial route in the presence of triumf S400 is fraught with danger. AIP equipped SSK armed with Babur LACM will be a safer and stealthier option. PN has been working on SLM for some time, mainly for 2nd strike nuke but a conventional SLCM wont go amiss.

Hi,

The aircraft can fly 500-600 miles parallel to the indian coastline----do the dog leg---dash in at the appropriate time---launch their weapons from standoff distance and be gone---.

 

[CriticalThought]

The problem is that you do not know much about the technicality but you do know and understand this much that there is a LACK of massive fire power in the Paf.

So---I will give you credit for understanding that part---and I will give you bonus for not falling for the fake supporters of Paf.

Thank you. If you look at my posts, I am also reading articles to increase my technical knowledge. It will take time.

 

[Khafee]

A dedicated bomber is not going to come, so stop talking about it and move on.

LR Strike fighter maybe. So lets stick to the topic, and stop talking about things which will never happen!

 

[CriticalThought]

A dedicated bomber is not going to come, so stop talking about it and move on.

LR Strike fighter maybe. So lets stick to the topic, and stop talking about things which will never happen!

There are many ways to make something happen. For each of the use cases identified up till now, the option to transform a transport aircraft into a bomber remains.

 

[Khafee]

There are many ways to make something happen. For each of the use cases identified up till now, the option to transform a transport aircraft into a bomber remains.

PAF did that in '65, where you the one who advised PAF on it?

 

[CriticalThought]

OK. Great discussion up till now. Let's move on to the naval theatre.

In any war, the Arabian Sea is going to become a very busy place. There will be many mission profiles:

1. CAS of naval assets such as frigates.
2. Naval strikes against enemy assets of high value. Frigates, destroyers, Aircraft Carriers, etc.
3. Strategic missions that use the sea for radar evasion.

Am I missing something?

PAF did that in '65, where you the one who advised PAF on it?

What's your point? Normally I wouldn't even reply to such a post but I appreciate you are a sensible person. Please elaborate.

 

[Khafee]

What's your point? Normally I wouldn't even reply to such a post but I appreciate you are a sensible person. Please elaborate.

1) In war PAF did bomb runs with C-130's, been there done that. Better to discuss what exactly would they be doing on the Western front with C130's or some other cargo platform, since SEAD/DEAD would be achieved in an hour, or less.

2) A dedicated strategic bomber is not going to come. Long Range Strike Aircrafts could very well become a reality.

Lets keep these two points in mind, and take the discussion forward

 

[CriticalThought]

1) In war PAF did bomb runs with C-130's, been there done that. Better to discuss what exactly would they be doing on the Western front with C130's or some other cargo platform, since SEAD/DEAD would be achieved in an hour, or less.

http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2004-1250

Btw, for me, the Western theatre is a done discussion. I have now moved on to the naval theatre.

 

[Khafee]

http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2004-1250

Btw, for me, the Western theatre is a done discussion. I have now moved on to the naval theatre.

Thank You. Now that you have established what a cargo a/c converted into a bomber can do, lets move on to LRSA.

Regards

 

[CriticalThought]

Thank You. Now that you have established what a cargo a/c converted into a bomber can do, lets move on to LRSA.

Regards

Actually I already established that in post #288. But... oh well...

https://defence.pk/threads/why-a-me...fense-of-pakistan.470260/page-20#post-9075863