Who Won in Afghanistan???

[VCheng]

Again, you are making assumptions, that's very unfair, please read what I have said and not interpret a meaning because I have been very clear.

Where have I said Pakistan is better off? reading and learning from events does not necessarily mean you take one extreme view or the other, that's simply ridiculous, mostly it does not work that way. it was your claim that we gained nothing from each situation, I did not make any claims.

Just so you don't have to go back to recall what I had written, but I would recommend that you do. The sides supported by Pakistan won, that was my initial assertion, and factually correct.

Now, regarding the aftermath, Pakistan gained and lost, but hindsight is a beautiful thing, it allows us to feel clever, and impose judgement on those who had to make choices taking into consideration the realties of their time.

I am happy to answer a detailed contribution from you, because you have already made your claim, I have not done any such thing. I stand by what I have written, but I have not made any claims, you have, so please expand on your claims.
Please keep it concentrated so that the discussion may reach a conclusion of some kind.

So claiming multiple victories is not a claim? Sides supported by Pakistan is nothing but a feel good euphemism for the john of the week renting out Pakistan for their own purposes. On to the next successful bidder. Funny how supporting multiple victors does not leave Pakistan with anything good to show for their victories, eh?

 

[ziaulislam]

I have been thinking a little about the Cold War and the Afghan wars, which were instrumental in bringing about the downfall of the Soviet Union, and influential in modern world history.

One thing struck me; it’s an inescapable fact of history and perhaps a little foretelling of the future.

America vs. the Soviet Union in the cold war
>> America won, supported by > PAKISTAN

America wanted to have good relations with China
>> America did, supported by > PAKISTAN

America wanted to defeat the Soviets in Afghanistan
>> America did, supported by > PAKISTAN

India, Russia, Iran, CAR’s, all Afghan groups against the Taliban
>> Taliban won, supported by > PAKISTAN

American Invasion of Afghanistan vs. Taliban
>> Taliban won, supported by > PAKISTAN

America vs. China
>> To be decided, who will be supported by > PAKISTAN

It seems the only side that keeps winning is the side that is supported by PAKISTAN.

Lol if u call 70,000 people dead and destroyed economy then something is really wrong with you

Neither the russians nor the americans lost

Only pakistan and afghanistan lost

While india won keeping us busy there

 

[peagle]

So claiming multiple victories is not a claim? Sides supported by Pakistan is nothing but a feel good euphemism for the john of the week renting out Pakistan for their own purposes. On to the next successful bidder. Funny how supporting multiple victors does not leave Pakistan with anything good to show for their victories, eh?

No, you are just being silly and wasting my time, don't make tall claims if you only have hay in your head. I have made no claims, if you are refuting any of the facts then do so, please do not behave like a 10 year old child and cry by making empty statements.

Go get a life, you fool. And, learn to read.

Lol if u call 70,000 people dead and destroyed economy then something is really wrong with you
Neither the russians nor the americans lost
Only pakistan and afghanistan lost
While india won keeping us busy there

I think something is wrong with you,
did you even read what I wrote? such an idiot
Please read, then understand, then reply.

You have not understood what I wrote, you are replying to a fantasy in your head, that's stupid.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

CPEC USD 65 billion investment but your leader screw up. Can't blame us.

Let's be honest. Your friendship has cost Pakistan at least 10 times that much or $650 billion. So that figure is 'pee nuts'.

Only pakistan and afghanistan lost

Count the number who died in both countries. The figure would top million. The Islamaphobic Poles, Czechs, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Latvians, Hungarians, Romanians etc got freedom and joined their brothers in EU to form the new western order. What did Soviet defeat get Pakistan? Apparently the Germans gave the late ISI chief Hamid Gul a piece of the Berlin Wall as appreciation of the unification of Germany.

Gee thanks. I will shove it up my a*ss while enjoying US Pressler sanctions ...

 

[ziaulislam]

No, you are just being silly and wasting my time, don't make tall claims if you only have hay in your head. I have made no claims, if you are refuting any of the facts then do so, please do not behave like a 10 year old child and cry by making empty statements.

Go get a life, you fool. And, learn to read.



I think something is wrong with you,
did you even read what I wrote? such an idiot
Please read, then understand, then reply.

You have not understood what I wrote, you are replying to a fantasy in your head, that's stupid.

I guess i m stupid

 

[Death Professor]

Well its a self praise post. We got ja*k shiat with all this winning. Easy to see only the western side losing half the country in the East. A loss so big, that to this day we can't repay in full. A loss so big that to this day we get mocked by it again and again, and on every thread even on this forum.

If we atleast took Kashmir, losing Bangladesh in return. I would say that man we won something of value, we won what we wanted to win. 74 years down the line now the COAS is talking about burying the past, and we are having joint terrorism exercises. What mockery is this. Yay, no one could conqueror Afghanistan, such big win? Like seriously, we got humiliated by Americans almost the same way they are humiliating Iran. Sure they didn't kill our general this time(forget Zia), but they killed alot of soldiers, drone attacks, hussian haqqani, malala, memo gate, Raymond Davis, American threatening to bomb us to stone age, the humiliation that was the Kerry-Lugar bill. Sure it's hindsight, but we definitely could have played our cards better.

 

[VCheng]

No, you are just being silly and wasting my time, don't make tall claims if you only have hay in your head. I have made no claims, if you are refuting any of the facts then do so, please do not behave like a 10 year old child and cry by making empty statements.

Go get a life, you fool. And, learn to read.

Your uncivilized response is proof that you have no cogent argument to support your contentions. How expectedly pitiful!

Let's try this again: How and why is it that you can claim that Pakistan's support helped anyone benefiting from it to win wars and stuff, but at the same time ending up with huge losses itself?

 

[VCheng]

I guess i m stupid

You guess wrong, because of claims of 70,000 dead and over a hundred billion dollars in losses.

 

[FuturePAF]

Two recent videos, one from SIGAR and one from a prominent academic that has followed the conflict closely, laying out the perceptions and metrics from the American point of video.

Worth watching

 

[peagle]

I guess i m stupid

I apologise if that's how it came across, but a silly response doesn't make you stupid.
Constantly I have the sort of responses where people automatically assume that I have claimed that Pakistan won, that's stupid because I said nothing of the sort.

My claim, which no one has tried to counteract, that in each situation the side that was supported by Pakistan won, which in fact is true, the conclusion being that Pakistan's support was instrumental in their success. I never claimed Pakistan won because that's a different conclusion. But people, including yourself keep claiming that is what I said, clearly they did not read properly and allowed their emotions to colour their interpretation of what I had said. That's wrong.

There are two aspect of this discussion, the conclusion to each of those events, and the aftermath, I had merely mentioned the conclusions, the aftermath is another discussion. Everyone assumed my position in the aftermath and replied accordingly, rather then recognising that the conclusions are in fact correct.

Not that Pakistan won, but the side supported by Pakistan won. If that is wrong please provide an argument.

Your uncivilized response is proof that you have no cogent argument to support your contentions. How expectedly pitiful!
Let's try this again: How and why is it that you can claim that Pakistan's support helped anyone benefiting from it to win wars and stuff, but at the same time ending up with huge losses itself?

OK, so your uncivilised response, where you assume what I had said and provide a reply based on an assumption is ok? I find your response not just uncivilised but rude to the extreme.

First, you provide a reply unrelated to what I had said, then make tall claims without providing a basis, but expect me to expand on something I did not claim, that's silly.

I responded very reasonably to your reply, but you simply were unwilling to expand on your answer, that's rude and arrogant. if you are unable to contribute to an appropriate level, then I suggest it is better not to take part in a discussion. Please do not assume an inbuilt truth in your statements, that's rude and arrogant.

There are two parts to this discussion, yet, you keep stubbornly wish to discuss them within the same format. I had merely stated the first part in my original post, that the side supported by Pakistan won, if you disagree , then tell me why? rather then arrogantly claiming otherwise, provide me a reason why, because what I have said is historical fact.

The second part is the aftermath once you recognise the first part then we can move on to the second part, otherwise it makes no sense because both discussions cannot happen at the same time, that's silly.

There is a perpetual habit among Pakistanis to not accept anything positive about Pakistan, I think that is shameful.

 

[Khan vilatey]

US can say good-bye to billions of dollars of future weapons sale to India if it applies CAATSA. India can buy stuff from other countries.
It will also need to say goodbye to Quad.
US will not dare apply CAATSA on India.

so the us cares about the 4-5 billion Indian order when their own defense budget is 690 billion ..............they gave Pakistan 10 Billion $ in collation support fund to take care of their india problem.... who says Indians are good business men, we get these weapons for free to use against India

No One actually won in Afghanistan.
Pakistan support to Afghan militants group backfired too.
This war would have never happened if those idiots Taliban simply handed over Osama when asked nicely than picking up arms and start a never ending war.

nope Pakistan won hands down....... it’s wishful thinking.... to feel Pakistan had no as an option but we still won in the long run

If you look from a neutral standpoint. Pakistan might have won in Afghanistan, but it actually lost in Pakistan itself. The war on terror has costed pakistan not only in terms of human and social cost but also economically, as it is at least 20 years (the same time WOT started in 2001) behind its regional peers.

please see answer above, Pakistan had no choice to start this war, they tried their best to stop it. Yet when war was forced on Pakistan with sacrifice and belief in Allah they won!

Pakistan also won the battle of waterloo.

And Indian iron brother France lost in waterloo....... hey why is France selling armed military helicopters to Pakistan so it can shoot down Indian tanks ........? Why does every country from China to USA to Russia want India taken care of ?

k

 

[VCheng]

My claim, which no one has tried to counteract, that in each situation the side that was supported by Pakistan won, which in fact is true, the conclusion being that Pakistan's support was instrumental in their success.

I had merely stated the first part in my original post, that the side supported by Pakistan won, if you disagree , then tell me why?

Ah, I now understand a little better how to illustrate the dilemma here.

Was Pakistan's "support" given freely or coerced? That answer makes a world of difference to what can be claimed. If the support was given freely, then how can one explain the thousands of dead, billions in losses and violations of sovereignty by drones and midnight helicopter raids. If it was coerced, then all of those make some sense, but then one cannot lay claim to being the kingmaker.

This brings us to the last point you made:

America vs. China
>> To be decided, who will be supported by > PAKISTAN

Has Pakistan "chosen" China, or was it left no other choice after the irreparable damage done to its transactional relationship with USA?

 

[khansaheeb]

Lol, don't go too far man. Just tell me why the heck US is not living Afghanistan yet even after doha deals? US achieved for whatever reason they landed there. Fighting with Taliban is just a pretext to stay there for a longer period.

They must have a glimmer of hope on getting their fingers on Afghan's resources, that's why.

 

[magra]

they gave Pakistan 10 Billion $ in collation support fund to take care of their india problem

Whatever US money you got in the past were for using your land for supplies to Afg or as compensation for pounding your land with air strikes

 

[Gangetic]

so the us cares about the 4-5 billion Indian order when their own defense budget is 690 billion ..............they gave Pakistan 10 Billion $ in collation support fund to take care of their india problem.... who says Indians are good business men, we get these weapons for free to use against India




nope Pakistan won hands down....... it’s wishful thinking.... to feel Pakistan had no as an option but we still won in the long run



please see answer above, Pakistan had no choice to start this war, they tried their best to stop it. Yet when war was forced on Pakistan with sacrifice and belief in Allah they won!



And Indian iron brother France lost in waterloo....... hey why is France selling armed military helicopters to Pakistan so it can shoot down Indian tanks ........? Why does every country from China to USA to Russia want India taken care of ?

k

Pak needs to make a deal with the TB, who are making rapid gains, to target and finish off the BLA/TTP. We've seen quite a few BLA members being killed in Kandahar, so when they take the city (probably in a year or two, depends if the Americans leave by the 1st), their operations will cease.