Who on earth said PAF will get only single engine fighters?

[Myth_buster_1]

Twin engine and in PAF colours right here.

Junk planes dont count

 

[That Guy]

Adding more $ symbols doesnt make a point valid. How much cost difference is there between single and double engine anyway? probably around 1.5 times. That's pretty affordable! When poor African countries can afford Su-30s, Pakistan with a half a trillion GDP very well can afford to maintain it.

Those African nations don't have large air forces, Pakistan does.

"
I see no reason why PAF could not operate the J-11b if we agree to Chinese soft loans, which they will gladly give.
"

This is being too confident. You guys assume that Chinas will extend loans (soft, hard or erected) to you like candies. This becomes basis of whole dream. Suggest test this hypotehsis before building air castle.

Not an assumption, the Chinese actually offered to sell the J-11b to Pakistan, and the Chinese have already stated that they're willing to give Pakistan more soft loans.

 

[That Guy]

I think PAF is taking a keen interest in the development of J-15 as a better choice than J-10B.

Forgive me for asking, but isn't the J-15 the naval version of the J-11b? Why would Pakistan be interested in that?

 

[MastanKhan]

Twin engine and in PAF colours right here.

Hi,

This is an embarrassing example of a twin engine---. It has two engines because each engine has extremely poor performance---.

When twin engine is being mentioned here---we are talking about a massive right in your face air superiority testosterone filled aircraft---hormones screaming----not a wimpy little tu-rd.

 

[rockstarIN]

Nope, My point is that whatever aircraft suits our requirements best is what we go for. Your definition of true multi-role needs to exclude size or engines. A true multi-role aircraft is one that can perform both air to air and air to ground tasks in one single mission and seamlessly perform both roles simultaneously during that mission. To achieve that task, the aircraft should be able to carry enough tonnage in both air to air and air to ground at the same time.. and be able to attack n air target whilst engaging a ground target. Now, for that to happen... it should be able to target both at the same time and send weapons to them at the same instant.
Here is an example of what that means.


However, if a more lax definition is taken.. of aircraft that can work in both air-to air and air to ground roles within a mission...then the F-16 does that with ease. Now, is a heavy multi-role fighter or light multi-role fighter more suitable. That depends both on the resources you have and the roles you require. Sending a multi-role fighter worth millions of dollars to intercept and engage enemy strike aircraft over your own airspace where(in light of current missiles and accuracy) you will probably be able to employ no more than two or so before you end up engaging them in visual combat and due to the very accurate air to air missiles available for short range engagements.. shoot down and be shot down.. its a waste. Which is why various airforces continue to operate tier fighters for their roles.

Now, the idea is to hit the enemy in its critical sectors.. create confusion.. slow them down. Then you have to identify those spokes whose destruction(or disruption) will do that. Those key spokes(for now) rest in range of newest strike aircraft. The J-10B was supposed to add to this particular level of punch..sadly the finances did not permit for that.
So at the moment..the PAF has 18 aircraft that are able to hit the further(as an exclusive) critical nodes of the enemy and have enough chances to complete the mission.

Is F-16 capable of acting for A2A and A2B at same time?

In my last post I mentioned that even a F-16 with strike role have to escorted with other F-16 with A2A role. I believe F-16 with strike role will have only two Short range missiles+gun for self defense. If they were successfully intercepted, they have to jettison their A2G load to fight in WVR with the interceptors for self defense since their main senor, radar, will be on A2G mode. (I read somewhere that F-16 should 'load/install' its mission (a2a or a2g) before scrambling.


I heard about rafale with the 'same' (a2a&a2g) capabilities while its radar is on a2g mode and Spectra for a2a operations. @sancho can explain

 

[Saleem]

Is F-16 capable of acting for A2A and A2B at same time?

In my last post I mentioned that even a F-16 with strike role have to escorted with other F-16 with A2A role. I believe F-16 with strike role will have only two Short range missiles+gun for self defense. If they were successfully intercepted, they have to jettison their A2G load to fight in WVR with the interceptors for self defense since their main senor, radar, will be on A2G mode. (I read somewhere that F-16 should 'load/install' its mission (a2a or a2g) before scrambling.


I heard about rafale with the 'same' (a2a&a2g) capabilities while its radar is on a2g mode and Spectra for a2a operations. @sancho can explain

why worry about a goner case...with pervez's [musharraf] deal with US, these are now pieces of junk and can only be used to bomb pathan villages in NW paksitan......they cannot be used against anybody else....and with asif's [zardari] destructin of pakistan economy especially railways and fuel supply, the PAF is finished....in 3 years lack fuel for training flights and money for aircraft maintenance, the PAF will become a boy scout air club.....nothing more...no rails to more large cargo [fuel munitions etc]....

 

[Beerbal]

Su27 family cost

1. Minimum 50Million USD (if one go for cheap rip off from china), any chinese member can tell better price.
2. Operational cost will be higher
3. Maintenance cost will be higher.

Finally it will cost 1billion USD per Squadron (procurement cost), 2billion USD (life time cost)..

Is Pakistan ready to have 3-4 Squadron of Su27?

 

[alimobin memon]

Lets see.. there's the MKI's.. the M2k's..and the Rafale whenever it comes in.
Yes, which is why these weapons offset some of the range and survivability issues.

And lastly.. NO.. there is no way to tell if an SRBM or MRBM is carrying a nuke or not... too risky.
There is probably an acceptance among Pakistani pilots that their usefulness in a war is probably going to be limited to two weeks at most. Either they'll run out of aircraft to fly or end up martyred.

That seems foolish. If Pilots think so Than they wont even last for 1 weeks that's like accepting defeat in advance. This is not 71 or 65 war when we had only week or 2 of reserve ammunition and fuel. Now we have at least 2 months of reserves.

Now Since we our forces are facing towards china for weapons and indigenous designs and weaponry there wont be 2 weeks but more than a month.

furthermore now we have atleast 150 4th generation jets out of which 110 are to be BVR. Indian airforce is not going to send its complete force here they have to save Chinese side too and controlled too. Probably there wont be more than 350 jets from IAF. Mostly including Mig21 , M2k , Mig 29 and 80-90 MKI's Indeed they are great punch but they arent enough to destroy a Airforce in two weeks Since war will be inside Pakistan Air space mostly. With f7 and mirages, SAM support and Manpad sam. The close Air support fighters like Jaguar and MR mig 21 are easy targets proven in kargil war. The Air superiority by Mig 29 and M2K and MKI will be great but PAF will have near to great. since PAF has atleast 150 4th generation and out of which 125 approx are bvr now(18 blk 52+ , some mlu, and jf17) where as indian airforce will have complete 200 4th,4+ generation to gain air superiority(MIG 29 , M2K , MKI).

Our doctrine has only limited offense. sorry This time its not double ratio but will be equivalent as Indian airforce cant send his all 800 fighter jets since the Dragon(CHINA) otherwise will take advantage. I am pretty sure if war happens today most of MKI's will still be stationed at indo-sino border.

 

[Beerbal]

That seems foolish. If Pilots think so Than they wont even last for 1 weeks that's like accepting defeat in advance. This is not 71 or 65 war when we had only week or 2 of reserve ammunition and fuel. Now we have at least 2 months of reserves.

Now Since we our forces are facing towards china for weapons and indigenous designs and weaponry there wont be 2 weeks but more than a month.

furthermore now we have atleast 150 4th generation jets out of which 110 are to be BVR. Indian airforce is not going to send its complete force here they have to save Chinese side too and controlled too. Probably there wont be more than 350 jets from IAF. Mostly including Mig21 , M2k , Mig 29 and 80-90 MKI's Indeed they are great punch but they arent enough to destroy a Airforce in two weeks Since war will be inside Pakistan Air space mostly. With f7 and mirages, SAM support and Manpad sam. The close Air support fighters like Jaguar and MR mig 21 are easy targets proven in kargil war. The Air superiority by Mig 29 and M2K and MKI will be great but PAF will have near to great. since PAF has atleast 150 4th generation and out of which 125 approx are bvr now(18 blk 52+ , some mlu, and jf17) where as indian airforce will have complete 200 4th,4+ generation to gain air superiority(MIG 29 , M2K , MKI).

Our doctrine has only limited offense. sorry This time its not double ratio but will be equivalent as Indian airforce cant send his all 800 fighter jets since the Dragon(CHINA) otherwise will take advantage. I am pretty sure if war happens today most of MKI's will still be stationed at indo-sino border.

Ask your generals what was the scenario in 1999 when Pakistan invaded India in Kargil sector. I remember Pakistani top personal raised doubt about the claim u made.


No Indo-Pak war will go beyond 3-6 months, under this time, either pakistan will surrender or USA-China will break some deal..

 

[alimobin memon]

3-6 months I objected on two week thing he said. 2 months of reserves I said not 3 or 6.

 

[surya kiran]

True enough.

Btw sir I had mentioned you with a few questions- you may have not had the time back then-

Sir you had mentioned that the MKI was not important because of the radar but rather because of its range..Prasun Sengupta (dunno if you've heard of him) echoed the same thing recently..he added that it allowed the said craft to exploit various "gaps" in the ADGE in Pakistan. Is that true? If so can't buying systems like the Hq-9 fill these gaps? I mean there is some murmur that even BD is buying hq-9s, won't that work the same way for them- making their airspace nigh impenetrable?

Range gives rise to increased areas of ingress. Assume you have a plan with a lower range, your primary mode of assault will happen across the IB. You will have radars up and pointing and running and air defence fighters waiting to greet you. Also a figher taking off from near the border can get picked up by air borne assets from within opponent airspace.

On the other hand, if you have a bomber taking off from central india or west india, re-fuels over the Arabian sea and carries a strike mission by ingress over balochistan, it is surprise. That is what range does. Why is this useful? it forces the opponent to spread their critical resources thin, forcing a 'chance' to overhelm defenses.

Now, in this scenario, with limited budgets single seat fighters which have the capability to provide air interception, with single role multi role fighters which can provide punitive aggression over opponent terrain is what will be required, provided the single role multi role is also a great defender for critical installations.

 

[SQ8]

Is F-16 capable of acting for A2A and A2B at same time?

In my last post I mentioned that even a F-16 with strike role have to escorted with other F-16 with A2A role. I believe F-16 with strike role will have only two Short range missiles+gun for self defense. If they were successfully intercepted, they have to jettison their A2G load to fight in WVR with the interceptors for self defense since their main senor, radar, will be on A2G mode. (I read somewhere that F-16 should 'load/install' its mission (a2a or a2g) before scrambling.


I heard about rafale with the 'same' (a2a&a2g) capabilities while its radar is on a2g mode and Spectra for a2a operations. @sancho can explain

Incorrect assumption.. The F-16 has four stations on each wing. With external tanks, it can still carry Six 500 pound bombs and two medium range missiles and two short range missiles. The dont have to jettison anything unless they are merged with.. in that case the Rafale would be advised to do the same since even with two engines it wont much chance pulling G's with a bomb load.
Moreover, there is no loading of A2A mode or A2G mode.. what is loaded is the mission data. Pre flight there is a mode selection for the FLCS based on the load that is being carried. So a category I setting is for an air to air mission with lighter loads as A2A missles only.. in which the aircraft is unrestricted all the way to 9 g. With Cat III in case the aircraft is carrying a heavy bomb load.. it gets restricted to 5.5g.

The Rafale performed this A2A and A2G feat in ATLC, they used their radar to lock up and engage red air fighters while releasing their pre-locked AASM's to their targets.

 

[airmarshal]

Junk planes dont count

Ha ha ha.. but they still need resources to run. F-6 was another twin engine plane PAF had.

I think PAF wants to avoid twin engine planes but might not be averse to it.

 

[Hyperion]

2 engines = Twice the fuel = Twice the circular debt.

 

[rockstarIN]

Incorrect assumption.. The F-16 has four stations on each wing. With external tanks, it can still carry Six 500 pound bombs and two medium range missiles and two short range missiles. The dont have to jettison anything unless they are merged with.. in that case the Rafale would be advised to do the same since even with two engines it wont much chance pulling G's with a bomb load.
Moreover, there is no loading of A2A mode or A2G mode.. what is loaded is the mission data. Pre flight there is a mode selection for the FLCS based on the load that is being carried. So a category I setting is for an air to air mission with lighter loads as A2A missles only.. in which the aircraft is unrestricted all the way to 9 g. With Cat III in case the aircraft is carrying a heavy bomb load.. it gets restricted to 5.5g.

The Rafale performed this A2A and A2G feat in ATLC, they used their radar to lock up and engage red air fighters while releasing their pre-locked AASM's to their targets.

How will F-16 acquire targets for the long range shots when it is in a long range strike mission? Do they switch radar modes A2a and A2G in a single mission upon their choice for searching and tracking adversaries when at enemy air space and to A2g before releasing the surface weapons?