What if Hitler Never Declared War on America?

[Desert Fox]

Yep I share same sentiment for Confederates in the civil war as you know already. They had so much stacked against them but really gave a right ole thrashing given the circumstances.

True, reminds me of this song:

And this lyric in particular:

"Eventhough you lost they speak highly of your name"​

 

[Nilgiri]

True, reminds me of this song:

And this lyric in particular:

"Eventhough you lost they speak highly of your name"​

Yup, my favourite scene of the great movie:

I don't think a side that consolidates and believes like that in a cause......... rallied by charisma, skill and leadership of a great man (however they portray them later in the rancor of a "babylonizing" society)...ever truly "lost" a war....because truth is something that is eternal!...only some choose to see it!

 

[Desert Fox]

Yup, my favourite scene of the great movie:

I don't think a side that consolidates and believes like that in a cause......... rallied by charisma, skill and leadership of a great man (however they portray them later in the rancor of a "babylonizing" society)...ever truly "lost" a war....because truth is something that is eternal!...only some choose to see it!

Wow, powerful scene. They won't make movies like that anymore for reasons, or rather lies, we're both aware of, tearing down the monuments and all. Glory no longer exists in this degenerating world.

Great men are men of principles, and thus men of integrity, even if they make a mistake from the perspective of an outsider, the fact that they stick to their principles and defend them to their last breath is a quality worthy of respect and praise.

General Robert E. Lee could have joined the North, he had every incentive to but instead he refused to take part in the northern aggression against own American people and sided with the old America, the true America.

​

Leonidas is remembered as a great heroic commander even though the Greeks lost that war to the Persians. But yet same can't be done for the Germans or the Confederates? Lol talk about cognitive dissonance.

Churchill lost the British empire to a war with Germany that served no interest of the British people and still couldn't save Poland (lol) and British people today are suffering the consequences of his actions, yet people, including @vostok im sure borderline worship the likes of him.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...Britain-fought-say-unknown-warriors-WWII.html

Hitler is a far more worthier man of admiration than Churchill.



@LeGenD @Psychic @Metanoia @OsmanAli98 @Reichsmarschall

 

[Nilgiri]

Wow, powerful scene. They won't make movies like that anymore for reasons, or rather lies, we're both aware of, tearing down the monuments and all. Glory no longer exists in this degenerating world.

Yup that scene happened on the spur of moment too (it was unscripted). Basically all the re-enactors came out to cheer Lee (Martin Sheen) as he rode by....and the camera people just rolled with it! because of the spirit/energy that just came out....some of best moments in movie history are the most natural! Makes you wonder how it was real life on the ground during the actual time period.

 

[nahtanbob]

In world war 2 USA was nothing where as Germany was super power and Soviet was china of that era a developing military with lost of comrades. UK was the only surviving nation in Europe who only contributed in breaking enigma which is a hoax. I think uboats were enough for any Atlantic navy.

most of the US Navy was in the Pacific Ocean beating world's 2nd best navy

Wow, powerful scene. They won't make movies like that anymore for reasons, or rather lies, we're both aware of, tearing down the monuments and all. Glory no longer exists in this degenerating world.

Great men are men of principles, and thus men of integrity, even if they make a mistake from the perspective of an outsider, the fact that they stick to their principles and defend them to their last breath is a quality worthy of respect and praise.

General Robert E. Lee could have joined the North, he had every incentive to but instead he refused to take part in the northern aggression against own American people and sided with the old America, the true America.

​

Leonidas is remembered as a great heroic commander even though the Greeks lost that war to the Persians. But yet same can't be done for the Germans or the Confederates? Lol talk about cognitive dissonance.

Churchill lost the British empire to a war with Germany that served no interest of the British people and still couldn't save Poland (lol) and British people today are suffering the consequences of his actions, yet people, including @vostok im sure borderline worship the likes of him.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...Britain-fought-say-unknown-warriors-WWII.html

Hitler is a far more worthier man of admiration than Churchill.



@LeGenD @Psychic @Metanoia @OsmanAli98 @Reichsmarschall

Hitler is no general. He had a warped mind for a German nationalist. Churchill stood for principles however flawed they were. British would have lost their empire anyway.

Churchill never had to worry about a countryman killing him. No one could say that for Hitler.

Robert Lee fought for his people - Confederacy. He did not think secession was a good idea. He did not commit mass murder in pursuit of war. He could not see slavery is wrong. Beyond that he was not terribly evil. After the civil war he encouraged peace.

 

[S.Y.A]

most of the US Navy was in the Pacific Ocean beating world's 2nd best navy



Hitler is no general. He had a warped mind for a German nationalist. Churchill stood for principles however flawed they were. British would have lost their empire anyway.

Churchill never had to worry about a countryman killing him. No one could say that for Hitler.

Robert Lee fought for his people - Confederacy. He did not think secession was a good idea. He did not commit mass murder in pursuit of war. He could not see slavery is wrong. Beyond that he was not terribly evil. After the civil war he encouraged peace.

churchill was no saint either. shahsi tharoor has a lot to say on this matter. it is just that because the allies won, his crimes were hidden behind a beautiful curtain.

 

[vostok]

Churchill lost the British empire to a war with Germany that served no interest of the British people and still couldn't save Poland (lol) and British people today are suffering the consequences of his actions, yet people, including @vostok im sure borderline worship the likes of him.

Why should I admire Churchill? He was a well known Russophobe. He did everything to embroil the United States and the Soviet Union and to start a cold war.
I see the situation from the position of Russia - not Germany or Britain or Western Europe.

 

[punit]

What if Adolf Hitler Never Declared War on America?​

by Robert Farley

If, despite all this, Germany and Italy had somehow managed to avoid an open declaration of war against the United States, conflict would have continued in the North Atlantic. The U.S. would have continued to supply Britain and the Soviet Union with war material, potentially with somewhat more secure lines of supply, especially if the Germans continued to avoid attacks along the Atlantic seaboard.

What if Germany had never declared war on the United States during World War II?

Scholars and analysts have long wondered whether this represented one of the great “what-ifs” of World War II; could the Germans have kept the United States out of the war, or at least undercut popular support for fighting in the European Theater, by declining to join the Japanese offensive?


Was the decision to declare war on the United States, effectively relieving the Roosevelt administration of the responsibility of mobilizing American sentiment for war in Europe, among Hitler’s greatest blunders?

Probably not. Washington and Berlin agreed that war was inevitable; the only question was who would fire the first shots.


At War:

The United States and Germany were at war in all but name well before December 1941. Since early 1941 (at least) the United States had shipped war material and economic goods to the United Kingdom, enabling the British government to carry on with the war. American soldiers, sailors, and airmen served in the British armed forces, albeit not in great numbers. And in the late summer of 1941, the United States effectively found itself at war in the Battle of the Atlantic. The Greer Incident, in which a U.S. destroyer tangled with a German U-boat, served to bring the conflict into sharp focus.


The Fireside Chat delivered by President Roosevelt on September 11, 1941 made clear that the United States was already virtually at war with Germany:

“Upon our naval and air patrol -- now operating in large number over a vast expanse of the Atlantic Ocean -- falls the duty of maintaining the American policy of freedom of the seas -- now. That means, very simply, very clearly, that our patrolling vessels and planes will protect all merchant ships -- not only American ships but ships of any flag -- engaged in commerce in our defensive waters. They will protect them from submarines; they will protect them from surface raiders.


It is no act of war on our part when we decide to protect the seas that are vital to American defense. The aggression is not ours. Ours is solely defense.

But let this warning be clear. From now on, if German or Italian vessels of war enter the waters, the protection of which is necessary for American defense, they do so at their own peril.”

This declaration did not simply apply to U.S. territorial waters. The United States would escort convoys filled with military equipment to Europe with surface ships and anti-submarine craft, firing at will against any German submarines, ships or planes that they encountered.

Moreover, even U.S. ground forces had begun to participate in the war. In early July 1941, the U.S. Army and U.S. Marine Corps, with Navy support, began deploying to Iceland. The Americans relieved British and Canadian troops who had invaded the island a year earlier.

Why?

In the long run, Hitler (and the rest of the German government) believed that confrontation with the United States was virtually inevitable. The U.S. had intervened in 1917 on behalf of Russia, France, and the United Kingdom; it was almost certain to do so again. U.S. behavior in 1941 reaffirmed this belief. Starting the war on German terms, before the U.S. was prepared to effectively defend itself, was the consensus position within the German political and military elite.

And so Germany declared war on the United States not out of a fit of pique, but rather because it believed that the United States was already effectively a belligerent, and that wider operations against the U.S. would help win the war. In particular, the Axis declaration of war enabled an operation that the Germans believed was key to driving Britain out of the conflict; a concerted submarine attack against U.S. commercial shipping. Although the Kriegsmarine had targeted U.S. vessels in the months and years before Pearl Harbor, it radically stepped up operations in the first months of 1942, launching a major effort just off the U.S. Atlantic seaboard.

The German tactics were devastatingly effective against a U.S. military that lacked good tactics, equipment, and procedures for fighting the U-boats. For their part, British military and political authorities worried that the German offensive might work, destroying enough shipping to cut Britain’s lifeline to North America. The Royal Navy and Royal Air Force quickly dispatched advisors to the United States in an effort to staunch the bleeding, but 1942 nevertheless proved the most devastating year of the war for shipping losses. Overall, Operation Drumbeat proved far more successful for the Axis than the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

But What If…

If, despite all this, Germany and Italy had somehow managed to avoid an open declaration of war against the United States, conflict would have continued in the North Atlantic. The U.S. would have continued to supply Britain and the Soviet Union with war material, potentially with somewhat more secure lines of supply, especially if the Germans continued to avoid attacks along the Atlantic seaboard.

In the real war, U.S. air, naval, and ground forces made their first decisive contribution in the Mediterranean. Plenty of analysts, now and then, have questioned the strategic logic of the Mediterranean campaign, but in the long run it helped beat U.S. ground and air forces into shape. If the U.S. had maintained formal neutrality, Operation Torch (the invasion of North Africa) might never have happened, and progress in the Med would have come much more slowly.

U.S. participation in the Combined Bomber Offensive (CBO), designed to destroy German industry and morale and drive the Third Reich from the war, might also have developed more slowly. Given the limited impact and immense cost of the CBO in its early stages, however, it’s unclear how much of a net impact on the tides of war that this would have made.

A reduced U.S. combat commitment in the Atlantic could have led to a greater effort in the Pacific, although it’s difficult to see what impact that would have made in the first year of the war. Over time, the U.S. built up an enormous advantage over the Japanese; this would have happened even more quickly with a smaller commitment to Europe. Still, the overwhelming superiority that the U.S. exhibited in 1944 depended on technology, training, and the availability of ships that remained on the slipways in 1942. Schemes to step up the fight in China or in Southeast Asia suffered from immeasurable logistical problems, which the U.S. could not solve until 1944 in any case.

The Final Salvo

Both Hitler and Roosevelt believed that war was inevitable, and they were both probably right. Restraining the war machine in December of 1941 might have bought some additional time for Germany in the Med and (possibly) in the skies, but would have forced the Kriegsmarine to forego an offensive that it believed could win the war. And in the end, the Americans likely would have joined the conflict anyway, perhaps with less experience, but with greater overall preparation to make a decisive commitment.

Robert Farley , a frequent contributor to TNI, is author of The Battleship Book . He serves as a Senior Lecturer at the Patterson School of Diplomacy and International Commerce at the University of Kentucky. His work includes military doctrine, national security, and maritime affairs. He blogs at Lawyers, Guns and Money and Information Dissemination and The Diplomat .

@Nilgiri @Psychic @LeGenD @Metanoia @OsmanAli98

Would not have mattered much .
Real game changer would have been a coordinated combined attack on russia by Germany and japan from two sides !!

 

[YeBeWarned]

If Hitler and Stalin join hands , they would crush the allied forces like a ant .

 

[vostok]

Would not have mattered much .
Real game changer would have been a coordinated combined attack on russia by Germany and japan from two sides !!

After defeats in 1938 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Khasan) in 1939 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol) Japanese were not so fond of this idea. Besides USSR held 1.5 million of best men on Far East - around 30% of the whole Red Army. And Red Army had far superior tanks than Japan.

 

[punit]

I can understand when people admire brutal but great conquerors, such as Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great (even after his empire did not survive his death). But admire Hitler? He is a loser who lost the war and turned Germany into an occupied banana republic for 100 years. This is trash.

May be because ww 2 gave death blow to the western imperialism

After defeats in 1938 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Khasan) in 1939 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol) Japanese were not so fond of this idea. Besides USSR held 1.5 million of best men on Far East - around 30% of the whole Red Army. And Red Army had far superior tanks than Japan.

t
Thats why I mentioned simultaneous two front war by germany and japan.

 

[nahtanbob]

churchill was no saint either. shahsi tharoor has a lot to say on this matter. it is just that because the allies won, his crimes were hidden behind a beautiful curtain.

In 1946 churchill obeyed the verdict of the british voters. you cannot say that for the likes of Hitler or Stalin

Why should I admire Churchill? He was a well known Russophobe. He did everything to embroil the United States and the Soviet Union and to start a cold war.
I see the situation from the position of Russia - not Germany or Britain or Western Europe.

When Soviet Union occupied Eastern Europe it is not that hard to be suspicious of the Soviets
Blaming Churchill is a copeout. he lost power in 1946.

 

[vostok]

When Soviet Union occupied Eastern Europe it is not that hard to be suspicious of the Soviets
Blaming Churchill is a copeout. he lost power in 1946.

Well, USA still occupies half of Europe - it is more then suspicious. And it is not like that countries took part in the henocide against USA people. Just occupation of countries on the other side of the globe for the sake of world domination and hegemony.

May be because ww 2 gave death blow to the western imperialism

It was USSR that helped people of Africa and Asia gain independence. Not Hitler.

 

[S.Y.A]

In 1946 churchill obeyed the verdict of the british voters. you cannot say that for the likes of Hitler or Stalin

Nobody f**kn cares about british voters. He is responsible for hundreds and thousands of deaths in british india. Heisnt a hero, he is a murderer.

 

[punit]

Well, USA still occupies half of Europe - it is more then suspicious. And it is not like that countries took part in the henocide against USA people. Just occupation of countries on the other side of the globe for the sake of world domination and hegemony.


It was USSR that helped people of Africa and Asia gain independence. Not Hitler.

Most important factor was WW 2 . The main colonial powers : britain and france were severely affected by WW2. And the main reason behind WW 2 was hitler.
At the same time we are thankful to russia for playing the immnese role in defeating hitler and preventing posible nazi colonialism.