We need more J-10Bs

[PakShaheen79]

what u said in post quoted by me is same thing wht MK said earlier... may be on some other thread....thts why I said so..

Don't you think all what i am saying is logical. Nothing kile J-11 or any other thing b4 2019.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Don't you think all what i am saying is logical. Nothing kile J-11 or any other thing b4 2019.

No that's just too much pessimism.
With a budget like India PAF can observe even F-35 under normal political environment. Remember, In early 1980s PAF straight away jumped from 3rd generation fighters into 4th generation state of the art latest fighter the F-16s. mind you PAF was the 2nd air force to put them in action very effectively.... PAF should have had problems of "observing" technology back in the days not now... and also if we take a look at the armaments of that time... we probably had one of the best AGMs in sub continent of that time.... and remeber PAF was even ready to raise the f-16 fleet up to 100 plus!
plus realistically speaking.... J-11 will have no significant importance when we will already have similar platform the FC-20.....

 

[gogbot]

No that's just too much pessimism.
With a budget like India PAF can observe even F-35 under normal political environment. Remember, In early 1980s PAF straight away jumped from 3rd generation fighters into 4th generation state of the art latest fighter the F-16s. mind you PAF was the 2nd air force to put them in action very effectively.... PAF should have had problems of "observing" technology back in the days not now... and also if we take a look at the armaments of that time... we probably had one of the best AGMs in sub continent of that time.... and remeber PAF was even ready to raise the f-16 fleet up to 100 plus!
plus realistically speaking.... J-11 will have no significant importance when we will already have similar platform the FC-20.....

What about the maintenance and running costs. That is an expense that must be paid for every year, and the majority of the defense budget accounts for that.
IS buying more 4th generation fighter planes going to be in PAK interests. Considering both China, India and Russia will have access to 5th generation fighters in 6 to 10 years.

Frankly if you want to compete with India in the near future, you have to Some how gain access to the F-35 or J-xx/j-14 .

Buying more planes now will only mean that you will have less budget capacity to purchase any 5th generation fighters if any in the near future.

The JF-17 seems to meet the PAF needs and that should be sufficient. China also offers better TOT for PAF meaning more reliability.
Buying more fighter now will mean just over extending the defense budget.
regular maintenance costs will eventually make it harder and harder for PAk to get defense weapons in the future.

 

[hj786]

No that's just too much pessimism.
With a budget like India PAF can observe even F-35 under normal political environment. Remember, In early 1980s PAF straight away jumped from 3rd generation fighters into 4th generation state of the art latest fighter the F-16s.
plus realistically speaking.... J-11 will have no significant importance when we will already have similar platform the FC-20.....

According to somebody who claims to have spoke to PN officers, they are so adamant that J-11 is required for naval support that the Navy is willing to pay for them itself. Perhaps no significant importance to the Air Force (MK sahib would disagree with that to some extent), but the Navy clearly requires a platform with great endurance to provide air cover to its future large frigate/small destroyer (Type 054/Meko A-200/FREMM size), which is yet to be selected and will have far greater range than any of its current platforms. Whether the J-10 is enough is up to the Navy, I don't think the Air Force can dictate to them which platform is capable enough in this regard.

PakShaheen I agree that your timeframe of late 2010s is most realistic, as by this time the new longer range surface combatant may have been selected (perhaps Mark Sien can give us his thoughts on this). The current Armed Forces Development Programme-2019 also supports this argument. It's clear that inducting new technology is not the barrier, but money is. We can see that the PAF are willing to sacrifice a considerable number of modern Chinese platforms for a small number of F-16.

 

[batmannow]

No that's just too much pessimism.
With a budget like India PAF can observe even F-35 under normal political environment. Remember, In early 1980s PAF straight away jumped from 3rd generation fighters into 4th generation state of the art latest fighter the F-16s. mind you PAF was the 2nd air force to put them in action very effectively.... PAF should have had problems of "observing" technology back in the days not now... and also if we take a look at the armaments of that time... we probably had one of the best AGMs in sub continent of that time.... and remeber PAF was even ready to raise the f-16 fleet up to 100 plus!
plus realistically speaking.... J-11 will have no significant importance when we will already have similar platform the FC-20.....

dear friend! a very happy eid mubarak!

J-11 will have no significant importance when we will already have similar platform the FC-20
really cant understand wht you mean, by that!
if we put this logic , thn we dont need f-16s because FC-20 are better thn thm?
wht you know about j-11bs, dear friend , & why they are still in service with PLAF , & RUAF?
THANKS

 

[Jabar 1]

Sorry for my absence EID MUBARAK too all of you.

My My My looks like I jumped into Royal Rumble. For an argument to qualify as a good argument, it is necessary that the argument be sound or cogent and both sides have given their reasons and both arguments are justifiable from where I see.

Second Pakistan Air Force has been flying twin engines for more than 4 decades and are very capable of handling such fighters, Tho worlds perception towards China is totally wrong, Chinese have a gift called Clean room design also known as the Chinese wall technique is the method of copying a design by reverse engineering which they have excelled in by all means the same fighter from Russia is complicated and sensitive but when China reverse engineers the same fighter its rugged and no complications very easy to use.

Our pilots have flown J-10 my course mate has flown 50 missions he is a graduate from USAFTPP
( United States Air Force Test Pilot Program )and has flown almost every fighter we have ever thought of buying and when I asked him he said its a cross between Rafale and F-16 but more powerful. Thats a strong statement its TPR is very high, It has more Hard points and very good for long range, Air-to-Air Air and Air-to-Ground both are very impressive So you could say that with our choice of Avionics and weapons J-10 is a BadAss fighter equal to J-11 in many ways.

 

[hj786]

Our pilots have flown J-10 my course mate has flown 50 missions he is a graduate from USAFTPP
( United States Air Force Test Pilot Program )and has flown almost every fighter we have ever thought of buying and when I asked him he said its a cross between Rafale and F-16 but more powerful. Thats a strong statement its TPR is very high, It has more Hard points and very good for long range, Air-to-Air Air and Air-to-Ground both are very impressive So you could say that with our choice of Avionics and weapons J-10 is a BadAss fighter equal to J-11 in many ways.

Thank you for that post sir. We fanboys simply cannot get this kind of info anywhere else.
I would like to know what you and your course-mate (when you said 50 missions, you meant he has flown 50 missions in J-10 right?) think of the pros and cons of canard-delta wing fighters such as J-10, Gripen, Rafale etc. against the classic cropped delta wing aeroplanes such as F-16 and the PAF's mainstay, JF-17. I keep reading about "low speed and high speed agility, in both sub-sonic and supersonic regimes" being a key advantage of these new canard-delta designs. Is this something that would make JF-17 an out-dated, or even obsolete, design (in terms of airframe, not avionics and weaponry) as some have claimed?

 

[Storm Force]

J10 looks like a very contemporary design infact the air frame looks very similar to the Typhoon.

I am only guessing but i truely believe the J10 with western Avionics is PAFs best most suitable answer to very large MKI fleet that IAF will surely deploy by 2015.

Cost wise
sanction free
Choose your own avionics radar weapons.

150 J10 upgraded with a french aesa radar and european BVR and jammers wud be ideal for PAF by 2015-2020..

The thunder is a great way to replace the now obselete mirage air frames in paf at very low cost prices. But the MKI threat which is huge maybe over 250 in nos has to be answered with a comparable plane in large nos.

 

[Muradk]

Thank you for that post sir. We fanboys simply cannot get this kind of info anywhere else.
I would like to know what you and your course-mate (when you said 50 missions, you meant he has flown 50 missions in J-10 right?) think of the pros and cons of canard-delta wing fighters such as J-10, Gripen, Rafale etc. against the classic cropped delta wing aeroplanes such as F-16 and the PAF's mainstay, JF-17. I keep reading about "low speed and high speed agility, in both sub-sonic and supersonic regimes" being a key advantage of these new canard-delta designs. Is this something that would make JF-17 an out-dated, or even obsolete, design (in terms of airframe, not avionics and weaponry) as some have claimed?

Advantages:

* Possibility for very good stalling characteristics without elevator stops.

* Sometimes a desirable layout from the packaging standpoint: Main wing carry-through behind cabin, pusher engine installation simplified.

* Synergistic use of winglets for directional stability.

* In certain cases a simplified control linkage is possible.

* When wing flaps are not desired (for simplicity as in ultralights, or competition rules as with standard class sailplanes for example) the CLmax of a canard may exceed that of an aft-tail airplane.

* For unstable aircraft, canard designs may have a CLmax and/or drag advantage.

* Control authority is larger for unstable canard aircraft at high CL than for unstable aft-tail designs.

Disadvantages:

* Fuel center of gravity lies farther behind aircraft c.g. than in conventional designs. This means that a large c.g. range is produced or that the fuel must be held elsewhere (e.g. strakes near the wing root.)

* CLmax problems with flaps or margin on the entire wing: Flaps produce a larger pitching moment about the c.g. on a canard aircraft. This results in the need for both large canard aerodynamic incidence change and high maximum canard lift coefficient. Note that since the value of a S is usually larger for canard designs, Cm0 has a greater impact on L than it does on aft-swept designs.

* Induced drag / CLmax incompatibility: Canard designs can achieve equal or better CLmax values than conventional designs, and similar values of span efficiency. However, the configurations with high CLmax values have terrible values of e and those with respectable e 's have low maximum lift coefficients.

* Directional stability: The distance from the aircraft c.g. to the most aft part of the airplane is usually smaller on canard aircraft. This poses a problem for locating a vertical stabilizer and may result in very large vertical surfaces. (Note, however, that winglets may be used to advantage in this case.)

* Wing twist distribution is strange and CL dependent: The wing additional load distribution is distorted by the canard wake.

* Power effects on canard - deep stall: Accidents have been associated with tractor canard configurations for which the propeller slipstream has prevented canard stall before wing stall. The result is a possible deep-stall problem.

* Finally, and perhaps most importantly, canard sizing is much more critical than aft tail sizing. By choosing a canard which is somewhat too big or too small the aircraft performance can be severely affected. It is easy to make a very bad canard design.

from Applied Aerodynamics:

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Muradk,

I am left scratching my head---you can have fun at our expense but then could you please explain all that in layman's terms.

 

[Muradk]

Hi Muradk,

I am left scratching my head---you can have fun at our expense but then could you please explain all that in layman's terms.

ok I will sorry about that.

 

[PakShaheen79]

No that's just too much pessimism.

That is not me dear... It is PAF who has drawn a modification plan. And i don't see pessimism in inducting three multi role fighters (F-16M, FC-20,JF-17), New SAM system, AEW&C and Tankers for the first time in out history in one modification plan.

With a budget like India PAF can observe even F-35 under normal political environment. Remember, In early 1980s PAF straight away jumped from 3rd generation fighters into 4th generation state of the art latest fighter the F-16s. mind you PAF was the 2nd air force to put them in action very effectively.... PAF should have had problems of "observing" technology back in the days not now... and also if we take a look at the armaments of that time... we probably had one of the best AGMs in sub continent of that time.... and remeber PAF was even ready to raise the f-16 fleet up to 100 plus!
plus realistically speaking.... J-11 will have no significant importance when we will already have similar platform the FC-20.....

Dear early 1980s were very very different... Politically for Pakistan. I think having AFMP-2019 is great as it has a well documented path for each service to get modernized as per its own requirements. No word on comparison of J-11 with FC-20... as right now i don't have any data about any of them.

 

[batmannow]

In mid-2002, SAC unveiled its intention to build an upgraded multirole version of the J-11 by revealing a mock-up aircraft carrying various types of air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles. Russian sources also confirmed that SAC was pursuing a multirole variant of the J-11 designated J-11B with much greater Chinese-made content. At least three examples (#523, #524, and #525) of the J-11B have been delivered to the China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) for flight test and evaluation since 2006. The aircraft was based on the Su-27SK/J-11 airframe, but with the following modifications:

1.An indigenous multifunctional pulse-Doppler fire-control radar reportedly capable of tracking 6~8 targets and engaging 4 of them simultaneously;
2.An indigenous digital flight-control system;
3.A Chinese copy of the Russian OEPS-27 electro-optic search and tracking system;
4.A strapdown INS/GPS navigation system;
5.A ‘glass’ cockpit featuring four colour multifunctional displays (MFD) and a wide-angle holographic head-up display (HUD);
6.The aircraft could carry the Chinese-made PL-8 IR-homing SRAAM and PL-12 active radar-homing MRAAM for air-to-air combat. While the PLAAF currently has the capability for two-target engagement using the Su-27/-30 and R-77 (AA-12 Adder) combination, successful integration of the PL-12 on the J-11B would likely provide a genuine multi-target engagement capability. The J-11B is also expected to have enhanced air-to-surface attack capabilities with the indigenous precision strike ammunitions such as LT-2 laser-guided bomb, the LS-6 precision-guided glide bomb, the YJ-91 (Kh-31P) anti-radiation missile, and the KD-88 air-to-surface missile.

During the 6th Zhuhai Air Show held between 31 October and 5 November 2006, China revealed first official details about the indigenously developed FWS-10A ‘TaiHang’ turbofan engine. The engine had already been successfully tested on a modified Su-27K fighter and possibly on some J-11 airframes too. The engine is understood to be similar to the Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan engine in both technology and performance. However, it is unclear whether the FWS-10A has already been fitted on the 'indigenised' variant of the J-11.

J-11BS

There has been speculation that Shenyang is currently developing a two-seater version of the J-11B, possibly designated J-11BS. The aircraft was said to be similar to the Su-27UBK fighter-trainer, but fitted with Chinese-made powerplant, avionics, and weapon suite.

Based upon the older Russian SU-27 fighter, the Chinese have employed stealth capabilities to give them an edge in Asia with the J-11. While it isn’t as stealthy as its American counterpart, it still only allows 3 square meters to be visible by radar, making it virtually invisible from a distance.

Still, the technology and battle capabilities of the jet is comparable to an American F-16, making it vulnerable in combat against more advanced aircraft. China is currently developing a pair of true stealth fighters, the Jian-13 and Jian-14.
“China is interested in reducing its reliance on foreign technology for both cost reasons and a desire to improve its domestic research and design.”

KnAAPO/Shenyang Su-27SKM/J-11 Flanker B

A recent renegotiation of the J-11 build has resulted in a configuration change to the latter 100 licence built J-11s, which will be delivered in the Su-27SKM (also reported as SMK) variant. The principal distinction is that the Su-27SKM incorporates all of the refinements of the multirole Su-30MK variants, and can thus support guided munitions, making it equivalent to proposed but never built single seat multirole derivatives of the F-15E. As such the Su-27SKM can carry the full suite of air – ground munitions now carried by the Su-30MKK series. The radar configuration has not been disclosed but may include the Pero passive phased array. Another possible alternative is a derivative of the developmental Phazotron AESA, reported to have been tested with a 0.7 metre array size on the MiG-29. This analyst interviewed Phazotron's chief designer during the 1990s and was satisfied that they understood the key design issues well.

There have also been persistent reports from Chinese sources claiming an effort is under way to 'indigenize' the J-11 by incorporating Chinese technology, specifically the Woshan-10A (WS-10A) engine replacing the AL-31F, the Shedian-10 radar replacing the N-001, and the PL-12 (SD-10) BVR missile replacing the R-77 and R-27, and a range of indigenous guided munitions replacing the Russian types. Given the time required to integrate, test and clear such a different derivative variant, it is likely that it could only be introduced after the last block of the SKM variant is built, thus suggesting an intent to continue J-11 production past 200 airframes.

Sukhoi
Su-27
ASCC codename: Flanker
Multi-Role Fighter


DESCRIPTION:
Marking a major improvement in the quality of Soviet fighters, the Su-27 is a long-range air superiority fighter comparable to the US F-15 in size and mission. The Su-27 is equipped with an analog fly-by-wire control system, a powerful pulse-Doppler radar, and up to ten air-to-air missiles giving it a potent look-down shoot-down capability. The Flanker also features a rearward-facing radar at the end of a long boom placed between the engines allowing the Su-27 to search for targets behind the aircraft. The Su-27's high thrust-to-weight ratio and refined aerodynamics allow superb flight characteristics at high angles of attack. In addition, the Soviet Navy purchased an improved Su-27K design, later redesignated the Su-33, to operate off its first class of large aircraft carriers. The Su-33 features canards for improved maneuverabilty as well as a strengthened airframe for carrier operations. An interesting feature of the Su-27 is its autopilot which is able to return the aircraft to right-side-up level flight at any altitude when the pilot presses a "panic-button. Improved version of the Su-27SK developed by China that features major upgrades including a new radar and an infrared search and track system while also incorporating Chinese weapons, reports suggest further orders for the Su-27SK (J-11) built in Russia are to be cancelled in favor of constructing the J-11B locally in China

http://observers.france24.com/en/con...s-russia-china

The original Russian-made Su-27 (Sukhoi 27).


China's version, the J-11.

It started some 30 years ago with fake Levi's jeans and Versace bags. Then the market became more sophisticated, with faux iPhones on the racks. Now, the Chinese counterfeit goods trade has gone even further, with the production of identical copies of Russian-designed fighter planes.

In 1996, the Chinese government acquired a license to manufacture 200 Su-27 (Sukhoi 27) fighter jets at the Shenyang aircraft factory in northeast China. The planes were supposed to be used by the Chinese air force under the name J-11. But in 2004, after reeling 95 planes off the assembly line, the Chinese authorities suddenly cancelled the contract, listing various faults with the design of the jet. However, in 2007 China started to manufacture a new plane, of "Chinese design", which they named the J-11B. Not surprisingly, it was almost an identical copy of the Su-27, except for the addition of Chinese-produced engines, radars and dashboards.

The Chinese model is much cheaper than the Russian original, and Russia has been quick to note that China hopes to sell it to countries usually supplied by Moscow.



Sam's Alfresco Coffee - Powered by vBulletin
China qustionable status among the roster of future SU-35 customers, and its certain presence as an export competitor, both create more difficult dynamics for SU-35 export success.

www.DefenseIndustry Daily.com[/B] ...]Sam's Alfresco Coffee - Powered by vBulletin
China has a large inventory of SU-30MKKs, and is also pressing ahead with its J-11, which substitutes Chinese electronics, radars, and engines in an SU-27 family airframe. Russia is very upset by this theft of its intellectual property, which has reportedly hindered sales of its carrier-capable SU-33 variant into the Chinese market. The J-11 is likely to serve as a similar but less capable international export competitor, while serving as a barrier to further Chinese sales on both sides of the table. Prospects may improve if Russia fields the PAK-FA and China has difficulty with its J-XX project, but the J-11 experience can be expected to have lasting effects.
China qustionable status among the roster of future SU-35 customers, and its certain presence as an export competitor, both create more difficult dynamics for SU-35 export success.

www.Defense Industry Daily.com
This dated Dec 7th 2008


Details have emerged of China’s next generation J-11B fighter
Jane’s Defense Weekly

Details have emerged of China’s next generation J-11B heavy air superiority fighter aircraft, a further development of Sukhoi’s Su-27SK (Chinese designation J-11) that ended production in 2004 ahead of its planned run.

Shenyang Aviation Corporation (SAC) assembled 95 J-11 fighters from imported Russian components, although the original project had called for 200 aircraft, and it is likely production was stopped in anticipation of the improved J-11B.


The improvements are planned to make the aircraft to a fourth generation platform; the Yanliang Flight Test Center currently has three J-11B under testing (No 521, No 523 and No 524).





The radar installed on the J-11B is believed to be more powerful than the Type 1473 installed on the J-10; it is estimated to be able to track 20 targets and simultaneously lock onto six targets.

J-11B will incorporate a quadruply-redundant digital fly-by-wire flight control system with mechanical back-up. Additionally, the aircraft has a fully glass cockpit but there are two variants - a reflecting head-up display (HUD) with four multi-function displays (MFDs) and a holographic HUD with three MFDs.

It is likely the former cockpit is for ground attack and the latter for air combat. The new cockpits integrate fire control radar, electro-optic countermeasure pods and infra-red search and track.

The improved radar and cockpit have allowed for the integration of newer weapons such as the CATIC PL-12 active radar-guided air-to-air missile.

The J-11 AL-31F engine will be replaced with the WS10A turbofan, providing longer lifespan and reduced fuel consumption.

Beyond J-12, China has plans for a carrier borne J-13, unlikely to be realised before 2015; the J-14, which is planned as a competitor to Lockheed Martin’s F-22, on the distant horizon at 2018; a two-seat J-11BS (2009); a naval J-11J (2010) and two-seat J-11JS (2011); and an improved J-13G and a navalised J-13J (2017).

More aircraft and unmanned combat aerial vehicles are being considered for even further in the future but new aircraft types will need to rise above the financial, political and industrial challenges that are likely to plague the programmes.
a blog from Rochen is the business hosting sponsor of www.World Affairs Board.com



really, iam asstonished, how we underesimate, the machine!
also, when PLAF playing with experince, its not hard for of them to take some of SU30MKKs, kiling abbilities, its maneuvors,,, & put it on AT J-11bs, after all with some westren avionics inputs, it could be a long time solution to IAFs MKKIs???
with the combination, of FC-20 or J-10s, we will be better off, thn our enemy!

 

[grey boy 2]

I don't know its been post before; J11b VS MKI; pretty interesting.

Su-30MKI (110)- The Su-30MKI is one of the most advanced Flanker variants in current operation. It features a passive phased array radar, advanced FLIR and electro-optical capability, thrust-vectoring, and impressive low-speed maneuverability, thanks to the addition of canards. Hands-down, the Su-30MKI is superior to all Flankers short of the J-11B in PLAAF service. It is difficult to compare the MKI to the J-11B however, due to their relative advantages in different areas. The Su-30MKI is about 20% heavier, and features an engine with slightly less powerful dry(non-afterburning) thrust, thus giving it a slightly lower thrust-to-weight ratio. Furthermore, the Su-30MKI also has about 8 times the radar-cross section of the J-11B. In terms of radar, the Su-30MKI has a clear advantage, and the MKI still retains a slight advantage in avionics despite major improvements to China's indigenous avionics industry. The MKI is also more maneuverable at subsonic speeds, though the J-11B has a superior climb-rate and better acceleration.

WikiAnswers - Indian air force vs PLAAF

 

[PakShaheen79]

Guys please stick to J-10 and PAF... threat is not about J-11 and its comparison with any other fighter.