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We need more J-10Bs

On the eve of the Army Day which fell on August 1, Meng Fansheng, first-class pilot of the PLA Air Force, successfully parachuted under the situation of the abrupt loss of the engine power when he piloted his J-10 fighter to take off to the height of 680 m from the ground in the flight training.

PLA Air Force’s investigation showed that the AL-31F engine malfunction cause this accident and Meng Fansheng attempted to restart the engine J-10 is Chinese first indigenous third-generation fighter but its power is AL-31F Turbofan engine imported from Russia. China has developed “Taihang” Turbofan engine but its quality is not stable and cannot be used in J-10 single engine fighter yet.



What I think
The investigating report says that the pilot tried to restart the engine several times which is not possible at 680m because to restart the engine the SOP is shut of engine throttle Ideal relay switch on throttle full power and this takes couple of seconds but 680m is to low for the pilot to relight the engine several times which means that the Russian or the chinese have found a way to bypass the relay system which is fantastic for a fighter pilot but bad for the engine. So lets see what they come up with I am sure they will come up with a solution quick.

This also answers the question what is PAF waiting for now you know.
 
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What about the maintenance and running costs. That is an expense that must be paid for every year, and the majority of the defense budget accounts for that.
IS buying more 4th generation fighter planes going to be in PAK interests. Considering both China, India and Russia will have access to 5th generation fighters in 6 to 10 years.

Frankly if you want to compete with India in the near future, you have to Some how gain access to the F-35 or J-xx/j-14 .

Buying more planes now will only mean that you will have less budget capacity to purchase any 5th generation fighters if any in the near future.

The JF-17 seems to meet the PAF needs and that should be sufficient. China also offers better TOT for PAF meaning more reliability.
Buying more fighter now will mean just over extending the defense budget.
regular maintenance costs will eventually make it harder and harder for PAk to get defense weapons in the future.

LOL
no one respond to the questions raised in my post
 
Guys please stick to J-10 and PAF... threat is not about J-11 and its comparison with any other fighter.

dear friend,
the reason why , i has posted details of J-11bs, is very simple!
most our mates on the fourm dislike J=11BS just because they think , tht PAF still can get , westrn birds!
thts the reason behind , thier disliking of the J-11bs.

i guss actully , PAF needs to establish right combinations of its inventry, to face a mighty enmy, which is called bharat!
so my point was, that after buying J-10bs, IT WOULD BE VERY EZY GO , FOR THEM TO GET 3 sqd of j-11bs.

if we can get 3 sqd, of j-11bs & 60 plus j-10bs with thier upgradation from westrn countries, we could have a beautyfull chance to , box IAF,s SU 30mkis & counter it forever.

i certainly know that it is a j-10 thread, but sorry we always get carried away just by looking at the pics of westrn plateforms, thus many dear mates here, allways likes to forget, the fact that its
going to be nearly imposible , for PAF to get RAFEAL, ERUOFIGHTER, even FI6s.:lol::disagree:
plz clear your mind from the question , which wouldbe be wondering in your mind right now, tht how come we can get westrn avionics, if we cant get any of above mentioned birds?
dear, getting avionics from west is a 90% posiblity, because they can tell uncle same tht, we are not, to give any of our birds to PAF, so no worries.
there is tones of westrn equipment still roaring, in the old junkyards of EU , & i am sure , PAF can get even more highly advanced , avionics from the westrn black markets.
A more upgraded, J-11bs & j-10bs with highly advanced , integrated westrn equipments & avionics could have a , deadly impact on SU-30MKIs , i mean a super surprize, which can give PAF a cutting edge over its superior enemy IAF.

if we go , & try to find westrn avionics , for our incomming jets , i am sure it is going to play in the favour of PAF.

if we can have below upgraded , birds with thier right combinations , such as!
J11bs(40)+j-10bs(75)
F16D(80 to 100) +JF-17(200)
along with , the crrunt F-7, F7PGS, MIRAGES & A 5s

we can reach a total of 500++ , very vital & deadly airfighter jets, which can make our enemy to think 100 times , to attempt any aggresions.

i think the time has arrived that , we should stop thinking ,getting new birds from west?

yes we need at lest 100 morej-10s.

i guss if PAF can get both of these birds , & if can able to make sufficiant upgrade ,of westrn avionics , PAF can become , a force which can take down , any threat! any time & any where !:tup:
j-11bs are required , because of thier long range , deep strike capability, also it can give a very reliable cover,to all of our major platforms, like J-10S, F16s, & thunder.:azn:

thanks
 
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Stop spending money here n there... just wait for MMRCA... and safe huge amount of money atleast for 5-6 years and thn go for RAFALE or any other powerfull (Quality) platform.
 
batmannow
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Again you are discussing PAF should get J-11 after J-10B. This threat is about J-10B and its possible role in PAF, Possible doctrine of PAF for J-10Bs... J-11 is still not finished yet until WS-10A engine don't show satisfied performance for J-11B. PAF will only think about it. And another thing we must understand here is twin engine fighters in general and Flankers in particular are very maintenance hungry, bigger the fleet of these birds more maintenance crew and money is needed to keeps them in the air. I am nothing taking away from J-11 but it is matter of fact that PAF with its limited budget vis-a-vis IAF can't afford 50-60 J-11Bs with current budget and national economic condition don't allow any sudden increase in this at the moment.

We both know how PAF work with Chinese fighters... For years they used F-7 then came F-7P and finally F-7PGs. J-10 will also go same way... PAF will keep tell Chinese after pushing first 36 to their limits in different war games and exercises. I also disagree with your list of possible order of battle for PAF in future. We must get rid of Mirages, F-7Ps, A-5s and PAF is exactly doing so. These thing will be taken off by 2015 Inshallah and we have Thunders as our unified fighter working as backbone of PAF and special roles like SEAD/DEAD would be assigned to more advanced squadrons with FC-20 and F-16s. This will reduce diversification so reduce training hassle for maintenance crew and engineering staff as well.

I am not worried about PAF but real deficiency of a deep strike platform for Pakistan Navy. Mirages will not able to with stand modern SAMs and Mig-29K etc. So couple of squadrons of Rafale will not be a bad idea ... Or I will even ready to accept J-11B there only problem with latter one is it is not ready yet. To me Rafale has a very good chance at MMRCA as France will agree to provide ToT to an extend US will not. But that a guess.
 
Sir MuradK...

When will you tell us advantages and disadvantages of different wing configuration in "Simplified" English as requested by MK as well.

Stealth
-------
Brother you pressed Thanks button for Sir MuradK's extra technical post. did you get what he said... If you did get all that stuff told by sir MuradK ..I will feel myself dumb :lol:
 
Stop spending money here n there... just wait for MMRCA... and safe huge amount of money atleast for 5-6 years and thn go for RAFALE or any other powerfull (Quality) platform.

what must be remembered that air power does not come cheap. It requires a major investment in terms of human development and resources allocation. A nation has to strike a balance where air power development is done in a manner that its economy and its aviation industrial base can sustain. All efforts should be made to achieve high skill levels in flying and maintenance and towards rapid development of maintenance infrastructure to reduce dependence on repair, overhaul and spare support of its combat inventory. The degree of development of aviation-based industry in a country is one of the key determinants of a nation’s air power prowess.
 
Sir MuradK...

When will you tell us advantages and disadvantages of different wing configuration in "Simplified" English as requested by MK as well.

Stealth
-------
Brother you pressed Thanks button for Sir MuradK's extra technical post. did you get what he said... If you did get all that stuff told by sir MuradK ..I will feel myself dumb :lol:

Lets see a canard will generate powerful vortices to scrub the wing in tight turns, slow speeds, slow landing approaches it basically helps in it. At high angles of attack the canard surface directs airflow downwards over the wing, reducing turbulence which results in reduced drag and increased lift which means it can fly very slow and not stall. It also helps in taking off from small strips which would unquestionably mean the difference between elimination and survival.
Bad thing about canards they have poor stealth characteristics, because they present large moving surfaces forward of the wing.

Rest I have to draw some diagrams which will explain better will post them later.
 
Thanks a lot sir Murad...

This was little better got disadvantage thing more clearly.. waiting for your detailed post on this issue as it will really helpful for guys like myself.

BTW, Why this thanks button works only once for each member??
 
Stop spending money here n there... just wait for MMRCA... and safe huge amount of money atleast for 5-6 years and thn go for RAFALE or any other powerfull (Quality) platform.

as simple as it gets,,, :tup:
just stick to JF17 and FC20, keep JF upgrades on track and FC20 specs on par with IAF MRCA winner and that it,
no need of big money deals at the moment,,

regards!
 
:agree: great minds think alike...

yes great minds , only can think great , but on the other hand , in a kargill like situation , a solider always pray for close air support!
btw , difference of opinion has its place !

what if we , have to face our enemy jst a week later?
thn great minds , really doesnt work!

our obsession with , westrn aircrafts did kill a lot of NLI soliders in kargill war, i guss this crazy obsession , will take more lives, some day, RAFAEL, RAFAEL & RAFEL , dear its not me , who is punching the sand bags here! its rafeal rafeal.... & its you!
anyways , who told you that J-11s had anyprobleums , regurding its engines?

according ti SinoDefence.com - The Chinese Military in the 21st Century!

The Shenyang J-11 (Jianji-11 or Jian-11) is the Chinese copy of the Sukhoi Su-27 (NATo reporting name: Flanker) air-superiority fighter built by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC). The basic variant J-11, built using Russian-supplied kits, is identical to the Su-27SK. The “indigenised” multirole variant J-11B was based on the Su-27SK/J-11 airframe, but fitted with Chinese-built avionics and weapon suite. Future productions of the J-11 will also be powered by the indigenous FWS-10A ‘Taihang’ turbofan jet engine.

more than , 130 plateforms in service with , PLAF is indeed a signal itself , howe much the bird is required by PLAF!
Currently, the PLAAF has seven divisions equipped with J-11, listed below[3]

PLAAF 1st Air Division based in Anshan, Liaoning, equipped with the J-11
PLAAF 2nd Air Division based in Suxi, Zhanjiang, Guangdong, equipped with the Su-27SK, Su-27UBK, and J-11
PLAAF 6th Air Division based in Yinchuan, Ningxia, equipped with the J-11
PLAAF 7th Air Division based in Zhangjiakou, Hebei, equipped with the J-11
PLAAF 14th Air Division based in Zhangshu, Jiangxi, equipped with the J-11
PLAAF 19th Air Division based in Zhengzhou, Henan, equipped with the Su-27SK, Su-27UBK, and J-11
PLAAF 33rd Air Division based in Baishiyi, Jiulongpo District, Chongqing, equipped with the Su-27UBK

The current inventory is composed primarily of third- and fourth-generation fighters and fighter-bombers, including 800~1,000 J-7 (MiG-21 Fishbed) and J-8II fighters, 76 Russian-built Su-27 fighters, 95~116 Chinese-assembled J-11 fighters, 76 Russian Su-30MKK multirole fighters, and some 60~80 Chinese indigenous J-10 multirole fighters.

PLZ CHECK OUT THE GREAT COMBINATION by a great airforce,which never go beging RAFEAL , MIRAGE OR F-16S, from uncle tom, uncle sam , or dick & harry of the west!


The Jian-10 (J-10) is a multirole, all-weather fighter aircraft designed for both air-to-air and air-to-ground missions. The aircraft was designed by the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (611 Institute) and built by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) of AVIC. The aircraft has been operational with the PLA Air Force (PLAAF) since 2003. The J-10 is available in the single-seat fighter variant J-10 and two-seater fighter-trainer variant J-10S. A further improved single-seat fighter variant designated J-10B reportedly made its maiden flight in February 2009.

Programme

The programme to develop the J-10, known as Project 8610, started in the mid-1980s. The aircraft was originally intended to be a high-performance air-superiority fighter to counter the then emerging fourth-generation fighters such as F-16 and MiG-29, but the end of the Cold War and changing requirements shifted the development towards a multirole fighter with both air-to-air and ground attack mission capabilities.

The development of the J-10 was reportedly assisted by Israel, which provided the technologies of its cancelled IAI Lavi lightweight fighter including the aerodynamic design and the software for the “fly-by-wire” flight control system. The development programme faced enormous difficulty in the early 1990s when China faced arms embargo imposed by the United States and European Union. In the mid-1990s Russian became involved in the J-10 development and supplied its AL-31F turbofan jet engine to power the aircraft.


PLAAF J-10 single-seater fighter with PL-8 and PL-11 AAMs (Chinese Internet)

The J-10 was first flown on 22 March 1998, with six prototypes produced for flight tests. Six production examples in the single-seat fighter variant were delivered to the PLAAF Flight Test & Training Base / 13th Test Regiment at Cangzhou Airbase for operational test and evaluation in March 2003. The aircraft was certified for design finalisation in early 2004. The first operational J-10 fighter unit was activated in the PLAAF 44th Air Division / 132nd Fighter Regiment based at Luliang Airbase in the southern Yuannan Province in July 2004. The two-seater J-10S first flew in December 2003 and was certified in 2005.

The initial batch of 100 examples in both single-seat and two-seater variants were delivered to the PLAAF between 2004 and 2006. It was estimated that a total of 300 aircraft may be required by the PLAAF and PLA Navy. A number of countries including Pakistan, Iran, and Thailand have also shown strong interest in the aircraft. In March 2007, the Chief of Air Staff of the Pakistani Air Force told the press that the country was finalising a deal with China to purchase up to 32~40 J-10 fighters, with the delivery expected to take place in 2009. [1]

Design


J-10 fighter with refuelling probe

The J-10 adopts a “tailless delta-canard” aerodynamic layout, which was originally developed for the cancelled J-9 fighter. The aircraft has the horizontal control surfaces moved forward to become a canard in front of the wing. When the aircraft pitches up, instead of forcing the tail down decreasing overall lift, the canard lifts the nose, increasing the overall lift. Because the canard is picking up the fresh air stream instead of the wake behind the main wing, the aircraft can achieve better control authority with a smaller-size control surface, thus resulting in less drag and less weight.

The aircraft employs an adjustable, chin-mounted air intake that supplies air to the single Lyulka-Saturn AL-31FN afterburning turbofan jet engine. The upper portion of the air intake is incorporated with an intake ramp designed to generate a rearward leaning oblique shock wave to aid the inlet compression process. The ramp sits at an acute angle to deflect the intake air stream from the longitudinal direction. This design created a gap between the air intake and the forward fuselage, and requires six small beams to enhance the structure for high-speed flight. This air intake design was reportedly replaced by a diffuser supersonic inlet (DSI) on the latest J-10B variant.



you can check rest of the info, SINODEFENCE.COM!@
I GUSS ITS FAR BETTER FOR PAKISTAN TO get both of very potencial birds, to save our soldiers in a kargill like situations, where haflf of our airforce was unable to fly, just because we were being sanctioned , so our westrn made plate forms were not able to defend our brave soilders in kargill war, as a former combatant of kargill war, i see a huge impact if our birds were able to support at that time.

however, we sholud make it faster, to let our birds in a rumble !J-10s ARE the basic upfront fighter plateform for pakistan to count on,what all i mean is, it would be better to have some j-11bs, all together it would be very lethal & cost effective combination, which can serve nearly 10- to 15 years, in future!:smokin:
 
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yes great minds , only can think great , but on the other hand , in a kargill like situation , a solider always pray for close air support!
btw , difference of opinion has its place !

what if we , have to face our enemy jst a week later?
thn great minds , really doesnt work!

Just one advice... Go and read Kargil history and try to under stand why PAF could not able to participate in war.
our obsession with , westrn aircrafts did kill a lot of NLI soliders in kargill war, i guss this crazy obsession , will take more lives, some day, RAFAEL, RAFAEL & RAFEL , dear its not me , who is punching the sand bags here! its rafeal rafeal.... & its you!
Can you point a post where i said Rafale Rafale ... and only Rafale??
Don't try to twist my words. I was talking about Naval ops not for Pakistan Air Force.

anyways , who told you that J-11s had anyprobleums , regurding its engines?
anyways , who told you that J-11s had anyprobleums , regurding its engines?

according ti SinoDefence.com - The Chinese Military in the 21st Century!

The Shenyang J-11 (Jianji-11 or Jian-11) is the Chinese copy of the Sukhoi Su-27 (NATo reporting name: Flanker) air-superiority fighter built by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC). The basic variant J-11, built using Russian-supplied kits, is identical to the Su-27SK. The “indigenised” multirole variant J-11B was based on the Su-27SK/J-11 airframe, but fitted with Chinese-built avionics and weapon suite. Future productions of the J-11 will also be powered by the indigenous FWS-10A ‘Taihang’ turbofan jet engine.

more than , 130 plateforms in service with , PLAF is indeed a signal itself , howe much the bird is required by PLAF!
Currently, the PLAAF has seven divisions equipped with J-11, listed below[3]

PLAAF 1st Air Division based in Anshan, Liaoning, equipped with the J-11
PLAAF 2nd Air Division based in Suxi, Zhanjiang, Guangdong, equipped with the Su-27SK, Su-27UBK, and J-11
PLAAF 6th Air Division based in Yinchuan, Ningxia, equipped with the J-11
PLAAF 7th Air Division based in Zhangjiakou, Hebei, equipped with the J-11
PLAAF 14th Air Division based in Zhangshu, Jiangxi, equipped with the J-11
PLAAF 19th Air Division based in Zhengzhou, Henan, equipped with the Su-27SK, Su-27UBK, and J-11
PLAAF 33rd Air Division based in Baishiyi, Jiulongpo District, Chongqing, equipped with the Su-27UBK

Wow! Now please would you like to take the pain to see how many of these are J-11s and how many of them are J-11B. It is J-11B which is fitted with WS-10A not J-11. Can u give me details how many J-11B regiments are there...:devil:

PLZ CHECK OUT THE GREAT COMBINATION by a great airforce,which never go beging RAFEAL , MIRAGE OR F-16S, from uncle tom, uncle sam , or dick & harry of the west!

Yeah.. because China has no other option but to build its own fighters as it has embargo from West. Do you really think China would not have Mirages and Rafale already had this arms embargo not in place by West? If they can buy Flankers from Russia then why not any other fighter because other fighters are not available to them.
I GUSS ITS FAR BETTER FOR PAKISTAN TO get both of very potencial birds, to save our soldiers in a kargill like situations, where haflf of our airforce was unable to fly, just because we were being sanctioned , so our westrn made plate forms were not able to defend our brave soilders in kargill war, as a former combatant of kargill war, i see a huge impact if our birds were able to support at that time
Do you really think... using AF was an option when we were telling the whole world that this is not us but freedom fighters.

however, we sholud make it faster, to let our birds in a rumble !J-10s ARE the basic upfront fighter plateform for pakistan to count on,what all i mean is, it would be better to have some j-11bs, all together it would be very lethal & cost effective combination, which can serve nearly 10- to 15 years, in future!

This is exactly what me and arsalan were saying.;)

Now serioulsy tell me... What was your point of this post....:undecided: if there was any at all.
 
Just one advice... Go and read Kargil history and try to under stand why PAF could not able to participate in war.

Can you point a post where i said Rafale Rafale ... and only Rafale??
Don't try to twist my words. I was talking about Naval ops not for Pakistan Air Force.



Wow! Now please would you like to take the pain to see how many of these are J-11s and how many of them are J-11B. It is J-11B which is fitted with WS-10A not J-11. Can u give me details how many J-11B regiments are there...



Yeah.. because China has no other option but to build its own fighters as it has embargo from West. Do you really think China would not have Mirages and Rafale already had this arms embargo not in place by West? If they can buy Flankers from Russia then why not any other fighter because other fighters are not available to them.

Do you really think... using AF was an option when we were telling the whole world that this is not us but freedom fighters.



This is exactly what me and arsalan were saying.

Now serioulsy tell me... What was your point of this post....:undecided: if there was any at all.

dear, MAJOR
i guss, i know the whole kargill war, better thn you , cause i was one of combatant there , i really know wht happened there, & i guss , i HAD THE REAL EXPIRENCE of not having a aircover.:hitwall:
well, when US cutted the supplly , of spares of our dear ! F16s at the time , of kargill , PAF has the only option left , is to look over on the more ,vital sites , which were more important thn of whole of kargill war(nucklear sites etc), that was the reason behind ,why PAF not been able to put active air cover, on the TIGER HILL area.

do, you really think CHINA couldnt buy a westrn platform & CHINA really cares of the sanctions by the USA?:lol::partay:
MY dear, when CHINA can have , state of art RUSSIAN fighters in , its inventry ! it doesnt needs mirages, or ANY OTHER less sufficiant plateforms!

bythe way, levi was a ISRAELI plateform , which was integrated in J-10s?
well comming back on the topic!
with 100+ fighter planes , with same design & avionics , it speaks itself the importance , china gives to the jet!
like J-10a or b, J-11 a or b will be more, advanced version of the same jet! & i guss if , we had a chance to further boost the plateform , with westrn tech , thn there is a chance that we can counter , IAF s su30mkiS?
THAT was my whole point, but if u didnt agree with that, thn its not a problem to waste the time!
here it is what you had said about your RAFALE thing , some couple of posts before!;)

. To me Rafale has a very good chance at MMRCA as France will agree to provide ToT :rofl:to an extend US will not. But that a guess.


its oky for me, but reliance on westrn plateforms , never was a advantage for PAF , it never will be!:cry:
with that, thanks for reply, lets finish this , childish tit tat!:angel:
i am , fully agreed with J-10s in PAF INVENTORY , BUT with inclusion of some of J-11BS.
 

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