War Strategy: The collapse of Cold Start

[SpArK]

You know what, it's pointless to talk to someone who don't kno what I'm talking about, It was a answer to "IamIndia"s post.

okayyy.. no problemo mate.

And the smiley- twaing twaing twaing twaing...

 

[IamINDIA]

Why not BUT Not against Pakistan as "ImIndia" tried to explain that Pakistan is no "Problem"

lol when did i ever say pakistan is not a problem......

i said that the indian armed forces dont need to get all fancy with doctrines like cold start,when the desired efffect is being brought about by other parties.....


lol if pakistan wasn't a problem for india and vice versa.........this forum wouldn't exist because most members here take pleasure in bashing each other........

 

[notorious_eagle]

It is dangerous to fool yourselves with fantasies of Indian weakness. The capability of the Indian Army to launch a "Cold Start" doesn't seem to be in doubt, just the willingness of the Indian leadership to do so. Not everyone believes in using military strength for the same ends. The U.S. hasn't invaded Canada in nearly two hundred years. We're just not interested in doing so.

Sir you need to look at the characteristics of the Cold Start Doctrine once again, they certainly lack the capabilities to launch something on the lines of Cold Start. Their IBG's lack proper communication between each other and they also lack the required officer core which is needed to pull off something as ambitious as this. Also it does not help if your enemy is quite mobile and can move its armour and infantry along the border at a very fast pace. India does not believe in using military strength , why dont you ask the Bengalis this question or it certainly wasnt Pakistan that mobilized its entire Army in 2002.

On the other hand, if India was led by another Indira, Pakistan would have cause to be worried. It would make sense, then, for Pakistan to consider changing strategies and train a national reserve that could be mobilized on a few months notice, rather than suffer the huge political, economic, and social expenses of continuously maintaining a large force at the Indian border.

Even if India was led by Indira Gandhi, Pakistan has no reason to be afraid because we do not have to fight a war on two fronts. We wont face the logistical problems we faced in 1971, if you look at Pakistan's supply lines they are extremely efficient and safe. We are extremely confident that we can defend ourselves against an Indian attack, if the Indians believe they have the upper hand they are welcome to try.

 

[Bang Galore]

We have been in worst than this situation many times before, Don't worry, When the time comes, you'll see some shocking results

Should tell you something, shouldn't it?

 

[Solomon2]

Sir you need to look at the characteristics of the Cold Start Doctrine once again, they certainly lack the capabilities to launch something on the lines of Cold Start.

O.K.

...it is the collective judgment of the Mission that India would likely encounter very mixed results. link

That means the Mission feels the Indians have the means to do something like Cold Start, but they doubt its success with the current capabilities of the Indian military. The cable does not note that Indians have shown interest in developing these capabilities any further.

Even if India was led by Indira Gandhi, Pakistan has no reason to be afraid because we do not have to fight a war on two fronts.

You are being very superficial if you feel logistics was a primary cause of the 1971 debacle.

 

[notorious_eagle]

You are being very superficial if you feel logistics was a primary cause of the 1971 debacle.

I am not being superficial, i am just being realistic. Obviously logistics alone was not the only factor but it was a huge factor. Our supply lines were severely constrained due to the geographical distance between West and former East Pakistan. The primary cause for the 1971 debacle were our injustices to the people of Former East Pakistan.

 

[deckingraj]

I am not interested in talking about cold start...i have had my share on a similar thread opened by Xeric and seems like such threads will keep popping every now and then....anyhow i just found this something interesting in your post and wanted to reply....

Even if India was led by Indira Gandhi, Pakistan has no reason to be afraid because we do not have to fight a war on two fronts. We wont face the logistical problems we faced in 1971, if you look at Pakistan's supply lines they are extremely efficient and safe. We are extremely confident that we can defend ourselves against an Indian attack, if the Indians believe they have the upper hand they are welcome to try.

Look buddy....i do understand that it is a very common belief in Pakistan that you lost because of two front war..or because of Mukhti Bahini or because of bad leadership but because of India.....I do understand that it is very difficult to digest a defeat that too from an arch rival but then facts cannot be changed and history always help us in avoiding similar mistakes...We had our share during 62, you had yours during 71...These are hard core facts and no matter how much i say that Indians were not a prepared lot or we were caught with their pants down in 62, nothing will change...Now related to your topic i have few points to bring to your notice...

- It is a nightmare for any adversary to fight on two fronts...Two fronts were not for you but for us...It was India who was fighting with the same enemy on two fronts.....We were offensive in the east and defensive in the west....We succeeded in our mission and like a true enemy due credit should be given....If you don't agree then do remember we did not open any front on east during 65 war even though some attacks were carried out by Pakistan from east...Reason is simple logistics!!! ...it take months to prepare for a 2 front war and that's what India did during 71...Heck we even prepared for the third front should China had intervened....

- Defense of east lies in West was your military doctorine...You guys left east ungaurded and put all you might in the west with the view point that you will win substansive territory in west and use it as bargain tool for losses in the east....Unfortunately for Pak things did not go the way planned..

- You guys were pretty convinced that at max Indians will achieve a stalemate before international community will intervene...In fact you managed to get even USA by your side as well as threatning noices by China were there to out pressure on us.....

So saying that you lost because of two front war is not the right thing to say.....Anyways you are a mature poster so i hope you will take my post in positive spirit and not provoking

 

[notorious_eagle]

Indeed i am not arguing, Pakistan lost the war along with half of its territory. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!! It does not matter what the reasons were, its only the END RESULT that matters. But i am hopeful that lessons were learned by the policy makers of Pakistan and something like this is not repeated again.

 

[Storm Force]

Notorius.

Your interpretation of Cold Start is completely Wrong.

India will not Invade Pakistan accross the entire Western Border over a 1000 km borderline.

Cold Start means very rapid mobile raids in key soft areas going no more than 30km at max.#

Most important it does mean massive air strikes and cruise missle strikes to take out both nuclear stations and air bases.

Pakistans biggest weakness is NO STRATEGIC DEPTH. They all have 9 air bases and only 2 nuclear reactors, 2 Naval bases. All of these are within reach of any IAF strike fighter and hundreds 200km brahmos cruise missles.

Pakistan sam capablity is poor and other than 18 F16/52s there is nothing than can stand up to 120 su30mki.

I REPEAT cold start is not invasion, just air strikes, missle strikes and taking small pockets of vital strategic points.

THE REST OF THE BORDER WILL BE STALEMATE.

Most western military analysts have predicted a indo pak War will turn nuclear with 7-10 days. REASON being almost certainly after this period Pakistan will be blockaded at Sea lost both power stations and most of its frontline air power. Pak Army will be alone holding its own as this area is Pakistans biggest strength....

 

[applesauce]

Notorius.

Your interpretation of Cold Start is completely Wrong.

India will not Invade Pakistan accross the entire Western Border over a 1000 km borderline.

Cold Start means very rapid mobile raids in key soft areas going no more than 30km at max.#

Most important it does mean massive air strikes and cruise missle strikes to take out both nuclear stations and air bases.

Pakistans biggest weakness is NO STRATEGIC DEPTH. They all have 9 air bases and only 2 nuclear reactors, 2 Naval bases. All of these are within reach of any IAF strike fighter and hundreds 200km brahmos cruise missles.

Pakistan sam capablity is poor and other than 18 F16/52s there is nothing than can stand up to 120 su30mki.

I REPEAT cold start is not invasion, just air strikes, missle strikes and taking small pockets of vital strategic points.

THE REST OF THE BORDER WILL BE STALEMATE.

Most western military analysts have predicted a indo pak War will turn nuclear with 7-10 days. REASON being almost certainly after this period Pakistan will be blockaded at Sea lost both power stations and most of its frontline air power. Pak Army will be alone holding its own as this area is Pakistans biggest strength....

i do not think india can overwhelm and render the paf ineffective within a short period, but you are absolutely right pakistan is rather lacking in depth compared to india. but pakistani nukes are almost certainly kept in many different places there is no way india can get them all in a short time even more so when as i said they cannot discount paf in a short time.

also perhaps this is one of the very reasons that pakistan wants china running one of the ports which will keeps a port open plus whatever can make it through the china/pakistan borders lest india feels like it wants to kill thousands of Chinese citizens working at the port and drag its large neighbor in to it because unless india clearly started the war china will have trouble openly joining due india being a nuclear power and the lack of a cause but if thousands of citizens were to die then even if the government didn't want to the citizens will force it to.

 

[syntax_error]

Who is india to judge that what will and will not provoke nuclear response from India?? We might be triggered by something as small as military buildup on the border. Pakistan should invest in small tactical nukes to lay waste vast swath of Indian infantry inside Pakistani desserts without inflicting any damage to its citizen.

are u crazy ???? u plan use nuke be tactical inside ur own soil....to stop Indian troops????
huh wat wbout radiation...... now im scared ...

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

are u crazy ???? u plan use nuke be tactical inside ur own soil....to stop Indian troops????
huh wat wbout radiation...... now im scared ...

Believe it or not,it seems according to Ahmed Rashid, Musharaf sent a message to India via some proxy stating that if an Indian division comes into Pakistan(in the south) ,a nuke will be dropped on them.

Ahmed Rashid,called it negotiating with your enemy by pointing a gun at your own head.

YouTube - Conversations With History - Ahmed Rashid

 

[notorious_eagle]

Notorius.

Your interpretation of Cold Start is completely Wrong.

India will not Invade Pakistan accross the entire Western Border over a 1000 km borderline.

Cold Start means very rapid mobile raids in key soft areas going no more than 30km at max.#

I am quite aware of what the Cold Start Doctrine is, i have researched it in quite some depth. I know that India does not want to invade Pakistan, they want to capture territory quickly before the war escalates and turns into a full fledged nuclear war. The IA wants to emulate NATO during Desert Storm, a fast and vicious attack which leaves the enemy shell shocked. What you forget is that neither are your capabilities on the same level as NATO and neither is your enemy as weak as Iraq.

India hopes to use its Integrated Battle Groups and launch multiple attacks on Pakistani positions. It could be a good plan but this means these IBG's have to coordinate between themselves which i doubt they can, and they are also opening up themselves to counter attack or being out flanked. Not to mention, Pakistan can launch attack on Indian positions where their defence is weak and capture those territories. So please, dont give me a lesson on Cold Start Doctrine because it appears i know more than you.

Most important it does mean massive air strikes and cruise missle strikes to take out both nuclear stations and air bases.

Pakistans biggest weakness is NO STRATEGIC DEPTH. They all have 9 air bases and only 2 nuclear reactors, 2 Naval bases. All of these are within reach of any IAF strike fighter and hundreds 200km brahmos cruise missles.

Are you joking me ? Do you honestly think India will take out a nuclear reactor, how dumb do you think Indian war planners are. If India takes out a nuclear reactor, India itself will be exposed to massive radiation and will be subject to counter attack from Pakistan. Indeed, strategic depth is a weakness but it also our biggest strength too. PA has developed our supply lines and logistics in such a way that supplies can reach our front lines at a much quicker pace. Thus, PA has turned our weakness into a strength.

Pakistan sam capablity is poor and other than 18 F16/52s there is nothing than can stand up to 120 su30mki.

How about IAF cross the border and see how good our SAM coverage and Air Force is. Stop acting like a fanboy giving me numbers of SU30MKI or other IAF fighters. Its nothing revolutionary that is good enough to tip the balance in India's favour, their is nothing India has in its inventory that cannot be countered.

Most western military analysts have predicted a indo pak War will turn nuclear with 7-10 days. REASON being almost certainly after this period Pakistan will be blockaded at Sea lost both power stations and most of its frontline air power. Pak Army will be alone holding its own as this area is Pakistans biggest strength....

Ya sure India will impose a blockade on Pakistan and take out our entire air force, whose leading the attack Sunny Deol . The fact that your Armed Forces still has not delivered the knock out punch against Pakistan should be ample evidence for you that India does not has much options when it comes to dealing with Pakistan militarily. All i hear are statements and rhetoric, no ACTIONNN.

 

[Dalai Lama]

Cold Start Doctrine is a myth...

Now we all know how no Pakistani ever misses a chance to rant on about their nukes. What makes you think that they'll miss a chance to use them! Come on, unlike what most Pakistanis here would like to believe, we aren't stupid. India isn't going to attack you, we have nothing to gain and we know that it will only make your wet dream come true.

 

[Dalai Lama]

Try vodafone version then.

Dude, thanks for making me laugh!