Wanted: a strong liberal voice

[SQ8]

Marx claimed that traditional liberalism's flaw is that in providing everyone the right to practice their religion, the right to choose one's partner for marriage and so on, is that the liberal presupposes the institution of religion, marriage and others. These instiutions are forced upon us as alien forces. True freedom is freedom from religion.

Yes, but that is the opinion of liberalism in terms of Marx. If freedom from religion is enforced without consent.. then it is only a lie and not freedom at all.

 

[M. Sarmad]

No I am not. You seem to think I have zero interaction with Liberals and secular which somehow you have the only "true" opinion on. Janab, at that very end you fall into the same pit as Mr Z. That my knowledge of liberals and seculars is absolute and they are gods gift on earth

And what made you conclude this ?? Did I say that I know liberals and you don`t ?? Did I say liberals are God`s gift on earth?? I don`t know what made you assume all this ...

All I said was : "liberals are not using bullets and bombs like Mullahs , and no liberal or secular draws cartoons or tries to Mock Quran or Holy Prophet in Pakistan " ..So Your assertion that Mullahs and liberals are equally wrong is incorrect ....

Now please prove me wrong ... I am waiting .......

Read again....

So who are these sympathizers?

You must read all posts again . No need to go in circles now ...

 

[Multani]

Wanted: a strong liberal voice - Ghazi Salahuddin

Ghazi SalahuddinSunday, April 06, 2014
From Print Edition

Be that as it may, Pakistan appears to be in dire need of a leader who is capable of winning hearts and minds on a popular level. With this following of a charismatic nature, he would be in a position to launch a liberal and progressive movement. When you listen to Bilawal, you feel that he is articulating some relevant themes. His assault on religious militants is very intense and forthright. That he is young should be a great asset in a country that is, demographically, dominated by youth.

But he carries the baggage of a party that has betrayed the promise of social change in a society that remains primitive in many ways. His task becomes more formidable in the presence of religious militants who openly advocate violence in the pursuit of their monstrous mission. Politics, to be sure, is not what it was in the late sixties.

It is this dire situation that calls for radical measures. All centres of power in this country must, in their own vested interest, strive to save Pakistan from the evil forces of militancy, intolerance and fanaticism. We have seen that induction of religion in politics has been disastrous and divisive. The liberal cause may be in retreat but it is the only hope for Pakistan’s survival.

The writer is a staff member. Email: ghazi_salahuddin@hotmail.com

This is to ghazi saalduddin. As Bhutto was a fanatic too. There is a so called liberal here calling for the genocide of 20% of Pakistanis @Hyperion

This is a rant by ghazi. Mullahs rule, we 'liberals' don't rule. We live under fear. We have a strong following in the country and demand mainstream politics. And that is not true.

Pakistan is a country of villages, simplicity, traditionalism, faith, and culture. Pakistanis are NOT stupid people. They are straightforward, God Fearing people IN general, beyond doubt.

Raza Romi, and Ghazi should stop fighting the people of Pakistan.

This is the face of PPP, the wadera party.

 

[SQ8]

And what made you conclude this ?? Did I say that I know liberals and you don`t ?? Did I say liberals are God`s gift on earth?? I don`t know what made you assume all this ...

All I said was : "liberals are not using bullets and bombs like Mullahs , and no liberal or secular draws cartoons or tries to Mock Quran or Holy Prophet in Pakistan " ..So Your assertion that Mullahs and liberals are equally wrong is incorrect ....

Now please prove me wrong ... I am waiting .......



You must read all posts again . No need to go in circles now ...

Your posts did, your defensive paragraphs did. And no, secularist have, DO and will continue to mock the Quran and Prophet; be it behind closed doors in drawing room drinking binges.. or in private groups on facebook.. or riding in cars as the governor making a remark to a similar minded friend. Yes, the secularists don't pick up guns.. but that does not mean they are not playing hand in hand with the devil when given the chance; So what if they forgot how to pick up the pitchfork from Lucifer?

 

[Dubious]

IK is just a crook or old guy who wants power. That's it. Bombings, killings happened before drones came in to the picture. Have you seen FLIR videos of taliban fighter? They literally throw their weapons away and hide. Lie flat down to avoid being blown. They call it the dragonfly. Or something dragon.

I am not talking about what the situation was before the drones...I am talking about the current increase in terrorists...

The problem with tribals is they are *** backwards in ignorance. The sheer idiocy is ridiculous. While on my trip to tribal areas the guys sold charas was reading tasbeeh. The other selling poppy, bargaining saying Allah ki kasam.

Here is a tip about our own mentality...anyone holding tasbih should do good and anyone eating kasam should be good when in reality it isnt the case so why prepare ourselves with a mentality that is failing? I have seen women fighting holding tasbih, holding tasbih pausing to do chuglian and then continuing with the tasbih in fact I have seen women doing chuglian and the beads moving in the hands...wonder what they were counting how many chugliyan words they used or how much ghunna they got?!

They literally believe that women should not be let out of the houses. This was double confirmed when i bummed a match from riksha driver to light my cig. He went on to say women are the devil and what not. Dil to kia do rakh ke lgaun, magar koi faida nahin hona tha. Not saying others arent jahil but these people will kill each other for looking wrong. The jahalat over here is remarkable, a level i have not seen anywhere. And i have seen a lot of jahalat.

Go to Manchester (UK) or even Brooklyn (US)...you will see plenty it is just the "strict" British and American laws holding half them back! So basically that is what we need the danda law coz plain normal law doesnt seem to work but GOD the British and American law freaks em out! Aywien apni gali mein sher dikhtay hian hotay tou chuhay hi!

These *** backwards do support these terrorists and actively help them. We trace their calls, they are literally everywhere. Beggars, rich guys, poor guys, servants, teachers, professors ( big unis). Everywhere. They arent the boogeyman they are real. Way more dangerous than India has ever been or will be. You see we have seen the people's willingness to help them.

Prof? Are you kidding me? So are you telling me education cant irradiate this mindset then what can? Why not bring in the shariah chop of their limbs for stealing, whip them for accusing their female and what not! Coz Shariah was to deal with Jahalat and if it is still present bring it on!

Most of the them are the same, crooks in nature, hypocrite by definition. Islam on their tongues, vulgarity in their minds.

Isnt that pretty much the case of every other man? Frustration of new heights?!

Just because they are growing in number we should talk? No wonder we are confused. Maulvis saying they arent terrorists but angry brothers ( yesterday's news). The same JI maulvis that PTI is partnered with. PTI is just as hypocrite in my eyes as others and I did vote for IK. N league will bring this dip in terror activities but believe me this will bounce back and bounce good. Such things do not stay under the surface for long.

Even during the elections I said 1 thing...a politician is a politician so far none has been right but since we voted for others and gave them a chance to loot us...why not give the same chance to IK....(Didnt doubt him that time though was pretty sure he lacked any form of experience) as for now...No idea what to think of him....

Hum dar jayein yeh zada hogayein hai to? They play dirty we dont. BElieve me if we start playing dirty Stalin would become our role model. Literally wipe out swathes of land.

I already suggested that however, even the wiping process injured our limbs (children and other innocents)

Sad you have a soft corner for them and somewhat justifying their actions. No wonder this nation is going down the drain.

I never justified their actions however I did point out my dislike for drones as it has caused many lives and I believe some of which is avenged for by some angry relative...because if some terrorists are among us...there has to be some dead soul doing this work and no soul is as dead as that of the one who has lost a loved one! That is the only point I make....That if there is a chance that drones have caused revenge seeking relatives to join the bad guys then drones should def be stopped!

 

[SQ8]

This is to ghazi saalduddin. As Bhutto was a fanatic too. There is a so called liberal here calling for the genocide of 20% of Pakistanis @Hyperion

This is a rant by ghazi. Mullahs rule, we 'liberals' don't rule. We live under fear. We have a strong following in the country and demand mainstream politics. And that is not true.

Pakistan is a country of villages, simplicity, traditionalism, faith, and culture. Pakistanis are NOT stupid people. They are straightforward, God Fearing people IN general, beyond doubt.

Raza Romi, and Ghazi should stop fighting the people of Pakistan.

This is the face of PPP, the wadera party.

That too is a very simplistic way to dismiss this. Regardless of their beliefs.. these liberals and secularists are also part of the nation with opinion.. and they have their opinion on how to run the nation. Now, who do those opinions benefit?.. 3% of the country or 93%.. is the question.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Your posts did, your defensive paragraphs did. And no, secularist have, DO and will continue to mock the Quran and Prophet; be it behind closed doors in drawing room drinking binges.. or in private groups on facebook.. or riding in cars as the governor making a remark to a similar minded friend. Yes, the secularists don't pick up guns.. but that does not mean they are not playing hand in hand with the devil when given the chance; So what if they forgot how to pick up the pitchfork from Lucifer?

Show me those posts and paragraphs plz ... And what if I say that nothing like this happens behind the closed doors ... It is just your assumption ... ?? Prove it

Prove that liberals are as wrong as Mullahs . Provide evidence/proof ..... Your opinions and assumptions carry no weight ..

 

[Dubious]

You must read all posts again . No need to go in circles now ...

Dont have time to go in circles...I wrote what I feel and what I observe ...

 

[Multani]

Muslims have Islam and it tells them every thing those so called liberals who want to bring some western shit they can try as much as they can they will fail and keep failing as always Muslims know what to do and what not to do in light of Quran and Sunnah ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW already made it cleared in Quran and Sunnah

ma sha Allah. In our beautiful country Pakistan, we have a culture, a tradition spanning 1100 years, that is rooted in Islamic Teachings. No one can deny this reality on the ground. These foreign liberals are fighting with Pakistanis and their History.

Hazrat Data Ganj Baksh came to Lahore more than a 1000 years ago. Pakistanis, claim their history from personalities like him. Their culture is intertwined with teachings of these Salaf. Hazrat Data Ganj Bakhsh came from Afghanistan, and settled in Lahore. He is a direct spiritual descendent of Imam Junaid Baghdadi radiallahuanh

He rules the psyche of most Pakistanis living in Punjab. This is a reality on ground TODAY.

My question to Gazi and Romi, how do you fit in regards to this traditionalism of Pakistanis? You heighten up the aliens called "TTP" and then brush all other "mullahs" in the country into the same basket, because your western adoptions fall no chance in the teachings of Hazrat Data Ganj Bakhsh, who the common Pakistanis in Punjab, at least, follow.

Gazi and Romi, should try to tackle the traditionalism of Pakistanis, if they want a voice in the country.

pakistanis need to be shown what is liberalism, currently its equated with drinking or having sex with loads of people or wearing revealing cloths.
In a conservative society this behaviour might be a sign of not being conservative or traditional but liberalism is much more than that.

Pakistanis are not stupid people. They KNOW about western liberalism. indians think Pakistanis live in caves.

 

[SQ8]

Show me those posts and paragraphs plz ... And what if I say that nothing like this happens behind the closed doors ... It is just your assumption ... ?? Prove it

Prove that liberals are as wrong as Mullahs . Provide evidence/proof ..... Your opinions and assumptions carry no weight ..

Now you are really defensive which is fine as I believe you identify yourself among the larger group of "secular" minded people. My opinions are based on my experiences and reading. Assumptions on your behaviour and the behaviour of others.
You dont, those that you interact with dont perhaps, but are you willing to sign an affidavit that states the same for all those you consider like minded?

Those that sit under the banner of liberalism or secularism are not all void of sin.. and the worst of them are no less venomous in their opinions on religion and followers of religion as are those bearded wackos. You have no way to disprove what I say just as I have no way to prove mine(unless perhaps one sorts through certain twitter feeds and editorials of the express tribune).


As for the concept of secularism.. the separation of religion and state. We have had debates on that before..and the merits demerits of it. If you read all my posts on this thread, you will see where I support some of the ideals.
Secularism in Pakistan-A solution to Pakistan's religious problems?

Pakistanis are not stupid people. They KNOW about western liberalism. indians think Pakistanis live in caves.

I certainly doubt that. They know less of what the west as just as little the west knows of them.

 

[Multani]

Unfortunately in due course to promote liberalism, leaders had ended up in softening their stand on hard liners which at length strengthened the orthodox radicals.This has been a case in this subcontinent as a whole. The spirit of liberalism can only be preserved under a temporary but constant guidance of an odious Iron fist,not by any appeasement politics.

Bullz Eye!

@Hyperion

What is the true definition of liberalism? that's what I want to know.

And that is what Gazi and Romi should really be writing about. They should teach Pakistanis about the liberalism they are promoting. My countrymen need CLEAR CUT DEFINITIONS!

live and let others live. dont judge others upon ur own whims and fancies !

But this is the central teaching of the Islamic way of life. Tolerance and no compulsion in religion. As God is Ever Present, and watching your deeds, which are recorded by the two angels on your shoulders.

These so called liberals want to get rid of the western shit .. Taliban , Najdis and Deoband were originally created by the west , this is an undeniable fact ... .. And Muslims know that the religion of TTP and their followers has nothing to do with Quran ... It is all about dollars and dark desires !!!

Salman Taseer was not murdered by Taliban, Najdis, Deoband

Its liberals who are taking dollars all kind of shit NGO with many this cartoon writer is also affiliated are pursuing western agenda and last time Hillary clinton openly met these NGOs heads and promised them funding and all enemies of Islam were sitting their listening to their master

They even want a version of Sesame Street to be shown to Pakistani children, so that they can muddle their minds.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Now you are really defensive which is fine as I believe you identify yourself among the larger group of "secular" minded people. My opinions are based on my experiences and reading. Assumptions on your behaviour and the behaviour of others.
You dont, those that you interact with dont perhaps, but are you willing to sign an affidavit that states the same for all those you consider like minded?

Your problem is that you make too much assumptions dear .... And what you are trying to assert here is totally incorrect ... But may be you are too arrogant to accept the facts that go against your opinions !!

As far I am concerned , My understanding of religion is a bit different ... I don`t believe in any of Mullah`s nonsense (words of Jinnah), I believe in a "secular socialist democracy" . Which according to Allama Muhammad Iqbal (And a lot of other scholars) is perfectly Islamic . !!! ... ... Now if you could understand that , You would realize that your assumption is wrong , once again ....


And I am still waiting for you to prove me wrong ..... !!!

Secularism in Pakistan-A solution to Pakistan's religious problems?

Thanx for the link mate ... will read it when I have time

Salman Taseer was not murdered by Taliban, Najdis, Deoband

Yes , that was a political murder .... PMLN is the main culprit

 

[Multani]

And we are back the parroting of religious arguments with hollow bases and the ultimate destiny of Pakistan almost like a broken record.. meanwhile the thread unravels and the nation ever so slowly cements itself as Bakistan.

The writer is a VERY respected personality but in this case he has only scraped the surface of the problem. The problem lies in the rampant promotion of an ignorant and dark interpretation of Islam by those in power and politics. Lets be very clear, there is no solution nor is there any hope to return Pakistani society to a balanced state. It is on a degrading spiral with the ultimate corrupt being its religious leadership. Even drug lords and owners of child brothels hold no candle to the levels of moral deception and dishonesty they are willing to go to further their cause and secure their position. Their political machinations which are riddles with misuse and abuse of the Quran and Sunnah mirror much of the acts of Christian clergy in the middle ages. We all know the results of the suffering that people endured due to that.

It is not just limited to Muftis or Maulanas(as if these terms still hold the weight they used to in terms of intellect and learning). Internet warriors roam the net with copy paste verses and sermons, drawing room preachers with interpretations and translations of the Quran and Sunnah like some bureaucrat with his rules and law. Condemning people to hell on the slightest whim and throwing people out of Islam at their behest; a task that god reserves ONLY for himself and himself alone. But then these people feign authority by way of loghorrea and speak as if speaking for god himself.

Perhaps then, a Ghazwa-e-Hind is most suitable for them. However, perhaps this Ghazwa may not have to be directed at India, but within. The Mullah's in Iran consolidated their position by sending scores upon scores of young men to their inevitable deaths at the hands of the Iraqis.. here an all out sectarian war with the military spilt from within would suit all Mullahs. After all, none of these religious leaders have the guts to actually take on the US or India, their bravery is using psychological and physical prosecution against their own countrymen.

Moral deception and dishonesty of pretenders is well known among Pakistanis on the village level. In rural Pakistan, people know the 9 out of 10 rule of thumb. That is, 9 out of 10 molvis are thieves.

First of all, who is the religious leadership in Pakistan? The religious leaders of Sunni Muslims in Pakistan are known. Is there any evidence of corruption against them? In Sindh, the leader of Sunni Muslims is Shah Tarab ul Haq Qadiri hafizuhulallah. In Punjab, KPK, Baluchistan, and Azad Jammu and Kashmir we have a number of leaders.

Also, just to make it clear, it is un-Islamic to condemn people to hell on the slightest whim and throw them out of islam [ called Takfeer ], lest you become a Kafir yourself, IF you are wrong. It is a very rigorous, and time-consuming process, taking what we call Usool of Deen in context; consultations; and endorsemants by authorities in religious circles.

Since it happens commonly in Pakistan, then that is done by incompetent pretenders or in violation of Islamic Jurisprudence.

Typing in english on a computer? that wasn't in Quran?

what does that mean?

 

[Informant]

I am not talking about what the situation was before the drones...I am talking about the current increase in terrorists...

The numbers hasnt increased, it has more or less plateaued. Even reduced if you look at figures i have.

Here is a tip about our own mentality...anyone holding tasbih should do good and anyone eating kasam should be good when in reality it isnt the case so why prepare ourselves with a mentality that is failing? I have seen women fighting holding tasbih, holding tasbih pausing to do chuglian and then continuing with the tasbih in fact I have seen women doing chuglian and the beads moving in the hands...wonder what they were counting how many chugliyan words they used or how much ghunna they got?!

Such is the nature of people sure, but my point and my irritation is when someone proposes violent Islam/Sharia as the end all be all they themselves are the biggest hypocrites. These maulvi types ki filain hain mere paas. These vile beings would eyeball all the party "girls" and drink and for the public they will be momineen ke amir. Countless are the same. Badmouth Ameeca pichli pocket main paisa bhi amreeca ka lete hain. Their kids go to US, i know of a maulvi of JI whose kid drives a benzo, E class brand new. College going kid, now a sophomore. Makkar, munafiq log.

If I do it, atleast i dont sully my religions name along with it. They do and that boils my blood no matter how pakka i am on my highway to hell

Go to Manchester (UK) or even Brooklyn (US)...you will see plenty it is just the "strict" British and American laws holding half them back! So basically that is what we need the danda law coz plain normal law doesnt seem to work but GOD the British and American law freaks em out! Aywien apni gali mein sher dikhtay hian hotay tou chuhay hi!

It's one thing to leave for US for a better life yet you wanna drag the same things that you ran away from?

Oh i lived in San Fran. I have an idea of jahil arbeez ( Muslims ). Yaar itna hi shauq tha amreeca jaane ka to ab haya shaya yaad agayee. Apnee baree main to gfs but aurton ke mamlay main qaidi bana do. This gutter soch is unfortunately seen in maulvi types (mostly). Brooklyn is not a nice place, me no going there no more. It's mostly a low cost neighborhood and you know the type that it pulls.

Prof? Are you kidding me? So are you telling me education cant irradiate this mindset then what can? Why not bring in the shariah chop of their limbs for stealing, whip them for accusing their female and what not! Coz Shariah was to deal with Jahalat and if it is still present bring it on!
Isnt that pretty much the case of every other man? Frustration of new heights?!

Agar pardhay likhay is type k hain then there is no solution but brutality with them. Pyar main to woh apke pet main churi daldenge aur ihsaas bhi nahin hone denge. Unfortunately the ills we go through in Pak, Sharia cant eradicate it. My solution is genocide. Plain and simple. Well nobody's gonna agree with it.

Even during the elections I said 1 thing...a politician is a politician so far none has been right but since we voted for others and gave them a chance to loot us...why not give the same chance to IK....(Didnt doubt him that time though was pretty sure he lacked any form of experience) as for now...No idea what to think of him....

When a leader says that TTP are not terrorists but brothers, tell me what do the parents, families, sisters, wives, husbands, kids feel who lost their loved one in terror attacks. I mean IK has lost a lot of support from the youth by his childish immature political antics. He should learn from Nooras the politics.

I already suggested that however, even the wiping process injured our limbs (children and other innocents)
I never justified their actions however I did point out my dislike for drones as it has caused many lives and I believe some of which is avenged for by some angry relative...because if some terrorists are among us...there has to be some dead soul doing this work and no soul is as dead as that of the one who has lost a loved one! That is the only point I make....That if there is a chance that drones have caused revenge seeking relatives to join the bad guys then drones should def be stopped!

Point is drones have collateral because terrorists live with their families knowing full well they are putting them in danger. So when "innocent" ( not really if they associate with scum ) die they make all the hue and cry. The problem is the average Pakistani still thinks TTP is right and the rest are wrong. I wish them all nothing but drones. But Allah unko zaleel kar raha hai, i am just watching the show. Shitty leaders, the jhoot that everyone says in everything, the helplessness, worse security situation and the zillat that they face anywhere in the world.

You realize an army operation achieves less results, costs infinitely more, no issue of IDPs ( which range in 3 to 4 million ), less blow back and negligible loss of life compared to drones. Drones have put fear in the hearts of terrorists. And i support drones. Unfortunately collateral damage is part of the 21st century warfare. So a civilian casualties are gonna happen like it or not.

 

[Multani]

meri voice chaly gee?