Wanted: a strong liberal voice

[Jf Thunder]

live and let others live. dont judge others upon ur own whims and fancies !

that seems ok, unless someone accuses me of being a terrorist, if i have a beard

Its liberals who are taking dollars all kind of shit NGO with many this cartoon writer is also affiliated are pursuing western agenda and last time Hillary clinton openly met these NGOs heads and promised them funding and all enemies of Islam were sitting their listening to their master

wait, you support the taliban?

 

[M. Sarmad]

I assumed they are using a "new technique" which is called all terrorists are in Pakistan, isnt that what the technique being used now is?

It`s a matter of fact that "Pakistan has become a safe haven for terrorists" , thanks to Mullahs and their sympathizers !!

 

[EasyNow]

Well I don't identify with any of them. And I interact with enough of the "seculars" to know their ideals.. easily spilled at a little flattery of their "intellect". And yes, I do have my way out.. and can be indifferent. Ill keep my piece of land, I am ok with that.. the rest of the liberals and seculars can fight it out with the Mullahs and meet their fate. After all, when in the orwellian Animal Farm....why bother if the men are displaced by the pigs...when you have wings to fly out of there.

Are you saying what I think you're saying? Taking the proverbial last train out of Saigon?

If so, that's disheartening, as you are one of the sanest posters here.

Who else will fight the mad mullahs if not the seculars. Other mullahs are just watered down versions of the their rivals - all they need is a top up of pure, concentrated salafism and they'll be the same.

We can fly off to our liberal, secular fortresses (the walls of which are peeling as we watch) but shall we leave our brothers to the wolves? God knows the non-resident mullahs certainly won't stop meddling.

You've lumped together all seculars but like all movements there is a huge divergence of opinions in there. Unfortunately, in simplistic, judgemental societies like ours, even your opinions are secular / liberal, whether you like the label or not.

 

[Dubious]

It`s a matter of fact that "Pakistan has become a safe haven for terrorists" , thanks to Mullahs and their sympathizers !!

It is also a matter of fact for every child who dies...his relatives become easier to recruit because there is no apology in fact many people like you for blind drone attacks makes the relatives want to do more damage even if it is blindly aimed at innocents esp since their innocent was taken!

I am not a sympathizer but i do believe that a lot have joined based on revenge and in anger! So painting everyone with the same colour (we have no idea why some are going mad killing innocents..) can be harmful yet no one stops!

If drones were perfect they would have killed most of the terrorists by now instead of helping increase the recruits...BTW, why are they increasing? What is fueling this increase? not just $$ there are various reasons:

From kidnapped kids raised and brainwashed
to angry relatives brainwashed for revenge
to inhumane treatments which are leading to un necessary frustration
to GOD knows what! Life has become soo cheap and so useless there can be billions of reasons why people are willing to give it up freely just coz some dari wala said so! So useless that even logic fails to see that innocent children, people praying in a masjid and also everyday man is the one affected...no govt senior officer (say PM or ministers who aredoing the real dealings and looting) are harmed ...why hasnt anyone taken notice of this?

 

[M. Sarmad]

It is also a matter of fact for every child who dies...his relatives become easier to recruit because there is no apology in fact many people like you for blind drone attacks makes the relatives want to do more damage even if it is blindly aimed at innocents esp since their innocent was taken!

I am not a sympathizer but i do believe that a lot have joined based on revenge and in anger! So painting everyone with the same colour (we have no idea why some are going mad killing innocents..) can be harmful yet no one stops!

If drones were perfect they would have killed most of the terrorists by now instead of helping increase the recruits...BTW, why are they increasing? What is fueling this increase? not just $$ there are various reasons:

From kidnapped kids raised and brainwashed
to angry relatives brainwashed for revenge
to inhumane treatments which are leading to un necessary frustration
to GOD knows what! Life has become soo cheap and so useless there can be billions of reasons why people are willing to give it up freely just coz some dari wala said so! So useless that even logic fails to see that innocent children, people praying in a masjid and also everyday man is the one affected...no govt senior officer (say PM or ministers who aredoing the real dealings and looting) are harmed ...why hasnt anyone taken notice of this?

There were terrorists&terrorism in Pakistan , long before the first predator was built !!!
This "ridiculously stupid propaganda" done by PTI is baseless ...

No one talks about the 50 thousand innocent Pakistanis (including children and women) killed by the TTP . Harboring criminals is a crime itself . So if some one hosts these criminals in their homes/Seminaries , He himself is responsible for all the (alleged) collateral damage ...... Anyways theTaliban fear drones more than Allah !!

 

[RAMPAGE]

You are posting most week hades truth off matter is dumbo it was khawarij who said Quran is enough for us and their is no agreement on it


Mr I know a lot about them so you are also among those who deny hadees like khawarij did

How dare you. you little piece of shit. I'm a 100 times better Muslim than you are. I never "deny" any hadith.

O Great Scholar enlighten us. Who exactly are Kharjis ???

 

[Dubious]

There were terrorists&terrorism in Pakistan , long before the first predator was built !!!
This stupid propaganda by PTI is baseless ...

No one talks about the 50 thousand innocent Pakistanis (including children and women) killed by the TTP . Harboring criminals is a crime itself . So if some one hosts these criminals in their homes/Seminaries , He himself is responsible for all the (alleged) collateral damage ...... And anyways theTaliban fear drones more than Allah !!

1stly, PTI propaganda? I didnt know you needed PTI to tell you this bit that terrorists have nothing but increased in number....reasons could be remorse from lost ones (since in the beginning collateral damage was alot) and also because America made it its point to go in blind to seek revenge....so mind you all this has weight!

2ndly, Yes no one talks about the innocents and hence the increased anger...and that is what I wrote..

3rdly, how do you know they are "hosting" them and not actually doing it out of fear as their own child may have been kidnapped for "hosting them"? why are other reasons overlooked? Just like the talibans lost common sense we normal human cant even be bothered to think why the increase in terrorists?

lastly, how on earth do you know they fear drones more than ALLAH? Did they tell you or something? I dont doubt that they are unaware of the ABC of the Quran! For were they aware they wouldnt be hurting the innocents....Were they afraid of ALLAH they wouldnt have caused harm to the innocents!
However claiming something as crazy as you just did makes no sense!

P/S: I am not talking about what was or was not...I am talking about the increase and the continuous increase...

 

[M. Sarmad]

lastly, how on earth do you know they fear drones more than ALLAH? Did they tell you or something? I dont doubt that they are unaware of the ABC of the Quran! For were they aware they wouldnt be hurting the innocents....Were they afraid of ALLAH they wouldnt have caused harm to the innocents!
However claiming something as crazy as you just did makes no sense!

If they feared Allah , they wont kill innocents ... After drones and air strikes , they run for "Muzakirat" and declare that they will not kill innocent people (Ceasefire)... So practically they fear drones more than Allah .. So hard to understand ???

Drones and Airstrikes is the best way to deal with TTP. Our troops have suffered heavy casualties during ground operations , But No one acknowledges their sacrifices . For our pseudo-intellectual classes , the death of a few terrorist sympathizers is a more condemnable act !! .......

 

[Dubious]

If they feared Allah , they wont kill innocents ... After drones and air strikes , they run for "Muzakirat" and declare that they will not kill innocent people (Ceasefire)... So practically they fear drones more than Allah .. So hard to understand ???

I think I said the same thing....

Drones and Airstrikes is the best way to deal with TTP. Our troops have suffered heavy casualties during ground operations , But No one acknowledges their sacrifices . For our pseudo-intellectual classes , the death of a few terrorist sympathizers is a more condemnable act !! .......

Actually I said that already there is enough frustration going on with lack of acknowledgement...I am not sure why you are echoing my words....

Well, then there is no difference between you and a pseudo-intellectual class....because you too find death of a few terrorist sympathizers is a more condemnable act

All I know is that from both sides my own a dying...ground operations my arms and limbs (my soldiers who protect my nation and loose life) From drone strikes the children of my nation...we are suffering only us no one else and this is which needs to be highlighted and needs awareness pronto! enough is enough whichever you strike its our blood that spills!

 

[M. Sarmad]

I think I said the same thing....

You said that this is crazy and makes no sense !!!

Actually I said that already there is enough frustration going on with lack of acknowledgement...I am not sure why you are echoing my words....
Well, then there is no difference between you and a pseudo-intellectual class....because you too find death of a few terrorist sympathizers is a more condemnable act

What you are saying Makes no sense at all ....

All I know is that from both sides my own a dying...ground operations my arms and limbs (my soldiers who protect my nation and loose life) From drone strikes the children of my nation...we are suffering only us no one else and this is which needs to be highlighted and needs awareness pronto! enough is enough whichever you strike its our blood that spills!

And here you are wrong ... TTP and their sympathizers are NOT our people !!!

 

[SQ8]

Are you saying what I think you're saying? Taking the proverbial last train out of Saigon?

If so, that's disheartening, as you are one of the sanest posters here.

Who else will fight the mad mullahs if not the seculars. Other mullahs are just watered down versions of the their rivals - all they need is a top up of pure, concentrated salafism and they'll be the same.

We can fly off to our liberal, secular fortresses (the walls of which are peeling as we watch) but shall we leave our brothers to the wolves? God knows the non-resident mullahs certainly won't stop meddling.

You've lumped together all seculars but like all movements there is a huge divergence of opinions in there. Unfortunately, in simplistic, judgemental societies like ours, even your opinions are secular / liberal, whether you like the label or not.

I may or may not be taking the last train out of Saigon.. but I must make it clear. I am not a "secularist" as it is commonly portrayed. I speak for the rights of minorities and believe in equality, but also am also a believer in the my religion as a uniting force within my country. I see it as a way of life rather than just a belief that I may cry to in times of dire need.

Hence, for me.. the Shariah exists.. first in my private life and then in expanding circles. I consider all my equal, be it of any religion or creed.. but I also do not join one of them in consumption of Alcohol or Pork...nor do I consider those people who consume it and still call themselves Muslims..right. I am not inclined to cut their throats off.. but there should be no illusion that I will not tell them that they are wrong if I asked about it.

The term secularism is much abused, The separation of State and religion makes sense only so far where it ensures that the rights of all religions, castes and creeds is met. But there are a set of laws set forth in my religion, and those laws are for me(and anyone who adheres to my faith) . Hence, these laws need to be enacted for ME(and those of my religion) and I must be judged by them rather than laws which are contradictory or insufficient in contrast to what is asked by my faith. Secularism then, is best practised when the law caters to the demands of each sizeable community and judgement while at the same time ensuring that common laws agreed by all are not violated. The UK is debating exactly this with the Shariah laws.

Where secularism or liberalism comes in the form of "live and let live".. well that is all fine until once class exploits, abuses or mocks the rights, the sanctity, the emotions of another. Then it is Not liberalism but callousness. Hence, the term liberal itself being abused within Pakistani society just as fundamentalism is. After all, one can say that the elimination of social injustice is the call of "liberals" these days..but when these very "liberals" are seen as the image of social injustice by the common man.. then we must question what liberalism represents in Pakistan.

 

[Informant]

1stly, PTI propaganda? I didnt know you needed PTI to tell you this bit that terrorists have nothing but increased in number....reasons could be remorse from lost ones (since in the beginning collateral damage was alot) and also because America made it its point to go in blind to seek revenge....so mind you all this has weight!

2ndly, Yes no one talks about the innocents and hence the increased anger...and that is what I wrote..

3rdly, how do you know they are "hosting" them and not actually doing it out of fear as their own child may have been kidnapped for "hosting them"? why are other reasons overlooked? Just like the talibans lost common sense we normal human cant even be bothered to think why the increase in terrorists?

lastly, how on earth do you know they fear drones more than ALLAH? Did they tell you or something? I dont doubt that they are unaware of the ABC of the Quran! For were they aware they wouldnt be hurting the innocents....Were they afraid of ALLAH they wouldnt have caused harm to the innocents!
However claiming something as crazy as you just did makes no sense!

P/S: I am not talking about what was or was not...I am talking about the increase and the continuous increase...

IK is just a crook or old guy who wants power. That's it. Bombings, killings happened before drones came in to the picture. Have you seen FLIR videos of taliban fighter? They literally throw their weapons away and hide. Lie flat down to avoid being blown. They call it the dragonfly. Or something dragon. The problem with tribals is they are *** backwards in ignorance. The sheer idiocy is ridiculous. While on my trip to tribal areas the guys sold charas was reading tasbeeh. The other selling poppy, bargaining saying Allah ki kasam. They literally believe that women should not be let out of the houses. This was double confirmed when i bummed a match from riksha driver to light my cig. He went on to say women are the devil and what not. Dil to kia do rakh ke lgaun, magar koi faida nahin hona tha. Not saying others arent jahil but these people will kill each other for looking wrong. The jahalat over here is remarkable, a level i have not seen anywhere. And i have seen a lot of jahalat.

These *** backwards do support these terrorists and actively help them. We trace their calls, they are literally everywhere. Beggars, rich guys, poor guys, servants, teachers, professors ( big unis). Everywhere. They arent the boogeyman they are real. Way more dangerous than India has ever been or will be. You see we have seen the people's willingness to help them.

Most of the them are the same, crooks in nature, hypocrite by definition. Islam on their tongues, vulgarity in their minds.

Just because they are growing in number we should talk? No wonder we are confused. Maulvis saying they arent terrorists but angry brothers ( yesterday's news). The same JI maulvis that PTI is partnered with. PTI is just as hypocrite in my eyes as others and I did vote for IK. N league will bring this dip in terror activities but believe me this will bounce back and bounce good. Such things do not stay under the surface for long.

Hum dar jayein yeh zada hogayein hai to? They play dirty we dont. BElieve me if we start playing dirty Stalin would become our role model. Literally wipe out swathes of land.

Sad you have a soft corner for them and somewhat justifying their actions. No wonder this nation is going down the drain.

 

[SQ8]

\


Liberals and seculars mock the Quran in Pakistan ???? Now you are trying a bit too hard Sir !!

No I am not. You seem to think I have zero interaction with Liberals and secular which somehow you have the only "true" opinion on. Janab, at that very end you fall into the same pit as Mr Z. That my knowledge of liberals and seculars is absolute and they are gods gift on earth.

Its not that all those who identify themselves as secularists are ungodly heathens.. but at the same time , there are many who claim to be in their secluded events. Who do not pass over the chance to ridicule religion, which is all forgiveable if that did not preclude them also engaging in attempts to use their opinions to woo like minded foreigners and those who pay to look for such "secular" opinions and offer their services against the interests of the nation.

The same can be said of Mullahs who willingly do the same.

 

[jandk]

I may or may not be taking the last train out of Saigon.. but I must make it clear. I am not a "secularist" as it is commonly portrayed. I speak for the rights of minorities and believe in equality, but also am also a believer in the my religion as a uniting force within my country. I see it as a way of life rather than just a belief that I may cry to in times of dire need.

Hence, for me.. the Shariah exists.. first in my private life and then in expanding circles. I consider all my equal, be it of any religion or creed.. but I also do not join one of them in consumption of Alcohol or Pork...nor do I consider those people who consume it and still call themselves Muslims..right. I am not inclined to cut their throats off.. but there should be no illusion that I will not tell them that they are wrong if I asked about it.

The term secularism is much abused, The separation of State and religion makes sense only so far where it ensures that the rights of all religions, castes and creeds is met. But there are a set of laws set forth in my religion, and those laws are for me(and anyone who adheres to my faith) . Hence, these laws need to be enacted for ME(and those of my religion) and I must be judged by them rather than laws which are contradictory or insufficient in contrast to what is asked by my faith. Secularism then, is best practised when the law caters to the demands of each sizeable community and judgement while at the same time ensuring that common laws agreed by all are not violated. The UK is debating exactly this with the Shariah laws.

Where secularism or liberalism comes in the form of "live and let live".. well that is all fine until once class exploits, abuses or mocks the rights, the sanctity, the emotions of another. Then it is Not liberalism but callousness. Hence, the term liberal itself being abused within Pakistani society just as fundamentalism is. After all, one can say that the elimination of social injustice is the call of "liberals" these days..but when these very "liberals" are seen as the image of social injustice by the common man.. then we must question what liberalism represents in Pakistan.

Marx claimed that traditional liberalism's flaw is that in providing everyone the right to practice their religion, the right to choose one's partner for marriage and so on, is that the liberal presupposes the institution of religion, marriage and others. These instiutions are forced upon us as alien forces. True freedom is freedom from religion.

 

[Dubious]

You said that this is crazy and makes no sense !!!




What you are saying Makes no sense at all ....




And here you are wrong ... TTP and their sympathizers are NOT our people !!!

Read again....

So who are these sympathizers?