Vietnam Defence Forum

[Carlosa]

No easy is not same with can't be done right?

for the bold part
yes it is, every person with proficient in english in this world will backing me

Well, lets see then, when a boxer is knocked out, because he felled, he didn't die, went down and was able to get up again, how do you define that?

What is knocked off in your definition, can you explain? I believe it means it was hit and its down (the tank could not move, it was disabled).
Knock means hit, touch, right? Knocked off, was hit and is down, its out of service.
What does it mean in your definition, can you explain?

 

[Viet]

Molniya are boring, they dont have any space to expand for a weapons suite upgrade. The upcoming Indians missile corvettes are more interesting and potent. They can range from 75m to 100m in length, and can be armed with Barak SAMs and torpedoes on the expanded version.

you are right. India has many potent warships including frigate and destroyer programs. I hope Vietnam/India will close some deals at upcoming visit.

 

[Carlosa]

you are right. India has many potent warships including frigate and destroyer programs. I hope Vietnam/India will close some deals at upcoming visit.

Indian Talwar and Kamorta frigates would be good for Vietnam.

 

[William Hung]

Actually, Barack sam is not that good an option, only 10-12 km range and requires a fire control radar which is not good for an small ship. Much better than that would be missiles that do lock-on after launch, they use the search radar of the ship to give the target info to the missile as well as mid course updates if needed. After that, they go on their own and when they are near the target they lock on with their built in seeker. Its a fire and forget type of system. A system like that can fire at multiple targets at the same time.

Systems of that type are Mica, Spyder, Umkhonto, etc. A missile system like that is also cheaper than a system that requires fire control radar and can hit more targets.

Now, if you tell me Barack 8, that's another story, that's my favorite, a true lock-on after launch system and 70 km range.

Actually, for a small corvette, Barak-1 would be the best option since they are super compact. Barak-8 and other longer range SAMs are more potent but you can't fit many of them on a small ship. How many Barak-8 or even MICA can you fit on a corvette under 1.5t? with a Barak-1 system, you can easily fit at least 16 SAMs, or more. I'd rather have +16 less potent SAMs than only 8 more potent SAMs.

Barak-1 is a short range system. For a short range system, you dont need a homing radar on the missiles, it will only make the missiles heavier and bigger. For ~10km range, on-ship FC radar is good enough. In fact, using air-search radar and FC radar on board the ship is better since they will be bigger and more powerful than the tiny ones on those missiles with homing radar. Homing radars are only needed for long range SAMs.

Barak-1 FC radar can engage multi-targets.

 

[Viet]

i DID set vietnam as my home location, and the "black flag" guy told that i'm a chinese, then it's not my fault to stir shit up. k?

come on bro, I believe you are vietnamese. let us all go back to the topic.

 

[William Hung]

you are right. India has many potent warships including frigate and destroyer programs. I hope Vietnam/India will close some deals at upcoming visit.

Stop dreaming about frigates and destroyers, you can't afford them. Indian Talwar frigates cost over $500 million each. A 1.5t corvette armed with barak SAMs and sonar is good enough for you.

 

[Viet]

Of the program of 6 Molniyas building under license:
2 already finished and are operational
2 are finished and are about to start sea trials
2 are closing and will start sea trials in about 6 months.

This is all I know. Actually, I would hope for more, but actually, better than that, I would like VN to do a follow on domestic design that has full stealth, air defense missiles of the type Lock-on after launch and the Packet-E anti torpedo system. That would be much better than the Molniyas.

.
this source says 6 warships are under construction, and will be complete at 2017. that means by then (2017), we will have 10 (4 already in service). that fits to one other site claim we will make at least a dozen of this kind of warship.

Việt Nam sắp đóng hoàn thành sáu tàu tên lửa Molniya

 

[Carlosa]

Actually, for a small corvette, Barak-1 would be the best option since they are super compact. Barak-8 and other longer range SAMs are more potent but you can't fit many of them on a small ship. How many Barak-8 or even MICA can you fit on a corvette under 1.5t? with a Barak-1 system, you can easily fit at least 16 SAMs, or more. I'd rather have +16 less potent SAMs than only 8 more potent SAMs.

Barak-1 is a short range system. For a short range system, you dont need a homing radar on the missiles, it will only make the missiles heavier and bigger. For ~10km range, on-ship FC radar is good enough. In fact, using air-search radar and FC radar on board the ship is better since they will be bigger and more powerful than the tiny ones on those missiles with homing radar. Homing radars are only needed for long range SAMs.

Barak-1 FC radar can engage multi-targets.

I believe Barack 1 requires fire control radar, I was reading about that yesterday.
But if we are talking size, Mica, etc are designed to be installed in ships as small as 500 tons.
They don't have much equipment to install in the ship other than the VLS system itself. They are very space efficient systems and very light. Barack 1 has much more equipment to install in the ship and its not as easy to fit in a small ship (not as easy as Mica, etc at least). They can also handle saturation attacks better since its a fire and forget system. I was just comparing Barack 1 to those systems yesterday, these are my conclusions, at least that's my take.

Barck 8 would be a great system to retrofit in the Gepard frigates. By the way, when I was comparing those systems to fit into the Molniya class, I did not mean to include Barak 8 there, that one is definitely for bigger ships, I would say 1000 tons and up. That missile is 4.5 meters long. By the way, Barack 1 has much more equipment to install under deck than Barack 8, its not as compact as you think. The missile itself it is, but not the other equipment under deck.

.
this source says 6 warships are under construction, and will be complete at 2017. that means by then (2017), we will have 10 (4 already in service). that fits to one other site claim we will make at least a dozen of this kind of warship.

Việt Nam sắp đóng hoàn thành sáu tàu tên lửa Molniya

The dozen comes from the current program of 8 plus the option for an extra 4.
When they say 6 under construction, I think they mean the total program of building 6 under license.
I used to have these doubts also and a Navy officer clarified things for me.

Actually, I wish you would be right because that means more ships, but according to the navy people is just 8 total now.

It could also be possible that the navy already decided to do the option for the other 4 and now they are already working on a program of 12; in that case we would be talking about the same thing.

 

[William Hung]

I believe Barack 1 requires fire control radar, I was reading about that yesterday.

Yes they do, but their FC radar can engage multiple targets. And if you are not happy with their current radar, I'm pretty sure the Israeli can upgrade the radar, for a price.

But if we are talking size, Mica, etc are designed to be installed in ships as small as 500 tons.
They don't have much equipment to install in the ship other than the VLS system itself. They are very space efficient systems and very light. Barack 1 has much more equipment to install in the ship and its not as easy to fit in a small ship (not as easy as Mica, etc at least).

The Barak-1 system is more compact. How many MICA SAMs can fitted on a 1.5t corvette? while 24 barak-1 SAMs can be easily fitted on a ship less than 1ton. The only thing a barak-1 system has extra is the FC radar on top the ship, but that radar is not much bigger than the ones for the AK630.

They can also handle saturation attacks better since its a fire and forget system. I was just comparing Barack 1 to those systems yesterday, these are my conclusions, at least that's my take.

Barck 8 would be a great system to retrofit in the Gepard frigates.

Barak-1 can also handles multiple targets. Which one performs better I dont know. Perhaps the MICA is better but I'd rather have 24 SAMs than just 12, especially when you'll likely to be against more than 1 enemy ships with 8 AshM each.[/quote][/quote]

 

[Soryu]

Hơ hơ, tự nhiên có 2 cái nick mới: 1 cái treo cờ Pak, 1 anh nữa thì khoe là đang tại ngũ ở cái lữ abc nào đó ... ai chui vào đây diễn trò thế !?

P/S: sorry, I want to speak Vietnamese with my fellow ...

 

[Soryu]

lol our relations are good and they're poking us after new president inauguriaton. offering their products and stuffs. i understand Russia is the only Viet's friend after Vietnam war.

your "understand" is very low ...

 

[Carlosa]

Yes they do, but their FC radar can engage multiple targets. And if you are not happy with their current radar, I'm pretty sure the Israeli can upgrade the radar, for a price.



The Barak-1 system is more compact. How many MICA SAMs can fitted on a 1.5t corvette? while 24 barak-1 SAMs can be easily fitted on a ship less than 1ton. The only thing a barak-1 system has extra is the FC radar on top the ship, but that radar is not much bigger than the ones for the AK630.



Barak-1 can also handles multiple targets. Which one performs better I dont know. Perhaps the MICA is better but I'd rather have 24 SAMs than just 12, especially when you'll likely to be against more than 1 enemy ships with 8 AshM each.

[/quote][/quote]

Well, I like the Mica type of system better myself and you like the Barack 1 better, that's ok. The key point is that most of the Vietnamese naval ships don't have a proper air defense and any of these systems would be an improvement. I'll explain why I say this:

There are 3 modern ships in the Vietnamese Navy, Gepard, Sigma and Molniya.

The Sigma has the Mica, that's a good system, it can handle supersonic antiship missiles quite well. That will workout fine. The only think that I don't like is the cost of the missile at $3 million, way too expensive, but the system is good.

The Gepard relies on the Palma system and most people think that's good enough, but they are wrong. Why I say this?
A) The Palma Sosna-R missiles are laser guided and that means that in the presence of bad weather, fog, rain, etc, the laser beam can be interrupted. That's why the Russian Navy doesn't like it.
B) Here is the thing that most people don't know, it took me some digging up to find it. The Sosna-R can only intercept targets flying up to Mach 1.5 and that leaves a lot of chinese missiles out of the equation, that's bad news, very bad news.
C) This is more minor, but the Palma only has a range of 8 km.

The Molniya as already discussed is in bad shape for air defense having only the Igla system, which is just a MANPACK system.

The Molniya has an space issue in order to retrofit a better system, but the Gepard can do it. One of the options in the Gepard is to order it with the Shitil system, in which case it gets installed where the Palma system is now located. That would be the location to install a new system and the Palma can be moved to the back to replace one of the AK-630's. I hope VN will eventually do this.

 

[Carlosa]

On October 24, The Coast Guard Command signed a contract with Hong Ha Shipbuilding Company under the General Department of Defence Industry for building 4 more high-speed patrol boats TT-400 (the number 6,7,8,9 ).

 

[William Hung]

Well, I like the Mica type of system better myself and you like the Barack 1 better, that's ok.

Barak-1 is most likely less potent than more modern SAM systems, including the MICA VL. But Barak-1 system is really compact and cheaper which, to me, makes a better option for smaller <1.4ton ships. If you dont believe me, check out the old Israeli Sa'ar corvettes. Some of them are under 600ton but are armed with 64 Barak-1 SAMs. If the system is equipped with a more modern radar like the EL/M-2258, they are still very powerful.

I doubt a 2000t Sigma has enough space for 24 MICA SAMs. VN, Indonesia and Malaysia's new >2000ton to frigates will only be fitted with 12 MICA SAMs. They wont survive against 2 enemy ships armed with 8x AshM each.

The key point is that most of the Vietnamese naval ships don't have a proper air defense and any of these systems would be an improvement. I'll explain why I say this:

There are 3 modern ships in the Vietnamese Navy, Gepard, Sigma and Molniya.

The Sigma has the Mica, that's a good system, it can handle supersonic antiship missiles quite well. That will workout fine. The only think that I don't like is the cost of the missile at $3 million, way too expensive, but the system is good.

The Gepard relies on the Palma system and most people think that's good enough, but they are wrong. Why I say this?
A) The Palma Sosna-R missiles are laser guided and that means that in the presence of bad weather, fog, rain, etc, the laser beam can be interrupted. That's why the Russian Navy doesn't like it.
B) Here is the thing that most people don't know, it took me some digging up to find it. The Sosna-R can only intercept targets flying up to Mach 1.5 and that leaves a lot of chinese missiles out of the equation, that's bad news, very bad news.
C) This is more minor, but the Palma only has a range of 8 km.

For a ship the size of the Gepard, it's better to go longer range like Barak-8. Shtil has shorter range. Also, the Shtil system is not so compact and probably only one VL module with 12 SAMs can be fitted into the Gepard. I dont know which system is cheaper though.

I would say the Barak-8 is also a better system for the Sigma.

 

[Carlosa]

Barak-1 is most likely less potent than more modern SAM systems, including the MICA VL. But Barak-1 system is really compact and cheaper which, to me, makes a better option for smaller <1.4ton ships. If you dont believe me, check out the old Israeli Sa'ar corvettes. Some of them are under 600ton but are armed with 64 Barak-1 SAMs. If the system is equipped with a more modern radar like the EL/M-2258, they are still very powerful.

I doubt a 2000t Sigma has enough space for 24 MICA SAMs. VN, Indonesia and Malaysia's new >2000ton to frigates will only be fitted with 12 MICA SAMs. They wont survive against 2 enemy ships armed with 8x AshM each.




For a ship the size of the Gepard, it's better to go longer range like Barak-8. Shtil has shorter range. Also, the Shtil system is not so compact and probably only one VL module with 12 SAMs can be fitted into the Gepard. I dont know which system is cheaper though.

I would say the Barak-8 is also a better system for the Sigma.

Regarding the Gepard (or Sigma), I also feel the Barak 8 its the best system overall. As I said before, Barak 8 its my favorite SAM. I mentioned the Shitl only because that's the location where to make the upgrade with a new SAM in the existing Gepards (and maybe in the 2 new ones also). Personally, I don't like the Shitl much, too bulky and the minimum intercept range is several times that of the Barak 8 which is only 500 meters, that's outstanding, 500 m to 70 km. It fulfills both the mission of point defense system and a medium range system. I would like to see Barak 8 in all VN ships from 1500 tons and up. And by the way, price wise is a non brainer, Barak 8 missiles are $1.2 million and MICA are $3 million.

Its intriguing to me how they fit 24 Barak 1 missiles into a small ship, I'll have to research into it.
The Barak 1 missile is 17 cm in diameter while the both the MICA and SPYDER are 16 cm in diameter, so the VLS systems of all those should be of similar space. A typical Mica system is 12 missiles, but the system can handle 16 and they can be subdivided into small 6 cells VLS systems that can be located in different locations in the ship, its quite space efficient.

A basic Barak 1 system with an 8 cell VLS is $24 million, not very cheap. But anyway, the newest SAM tech from Israel is the SPYDER for short and medium range SAM systems and since VN is going to buy the land based version of SPYDER, it would be better to used those in the ships also. Those are Mach 4 missiles, better suited to intercept fast supersonic anti ship missiles, they will use the ships radar and can handle a good number of targets at the same time. There are 2 versions of the missile operating together, one with an IR seeker and one with an active radar seeker, so 2 options, that's always better than one. SPYDER-SR (short range) has a range of 15 km and SPYDER-MR (medium range) has a range of 35 km. I think this would be a good system for small ships.

I definitely agree with you that is nice to have 24 SAM missiles as opposite to 12, etc. I think that VN ships will have to operate in a very dense missile environment where saturation attacks would be typical.

More on that 24 cell Barak later, but anyway, any of these systems would be a great improvement with respect to the present situation.