Vietnam Defence Forum

[Carlosa]

Look at this Saar 4.5 boat. It's only 500tons but carries 32 barak-1 SAMs (4x 8cells VLS module at the back):
$3 million for 1 MICA missile really? the Aster 15 sold to the UK and Italian was around $1.2 million each. I saw a documentary on the ESSM and it said they cost around $1mil as well. You might as well wait for the newer MBDA Sea Ceptor (CAMM). They supposedly have similar performances to the Aster 15 but designed to be smaller and cheaper.

India just sealed a contract to buy +200 barak-1 missiles at $550,000 each.

Remember for any SAM system, you have to buy plenty of missiles to stock up. So if the VPA buys 30 MICAs, that would cost about $90million already. 30 barak-1 would only cost around $17million. That's why I said for a small corvette under 1.5ton which probably cost less than $150million, I would prefer a cheaper system like the Barak-1.

Definitely very cost effective; the Israeli Spider is about the same cost for missiles also, but with an extra meter for the Python missile and an extra 1.5 meters for the derby missile, can't fit as many in a small ship.

Thank you, good pics.

 

[Viet]

Người ta là nick mới nhưng có hiểu biết chứ không như ai đó chá dám mở miệng lúc đang tranh cãi rồi đợi nguội mới dám đâm chọt sau lựng

Since we still have large numbers of M48 in reserve after the Vietnam War, we should ask Israelis to sign a contract to upgrade our M48s to Magach 6/7 standard if we have the money and we might as well continue to find a better modernization program for the T-54/55s too.

I am impressed

 

[Soryu]

Người ta là nick mới nhưng có hiểu biết chứ không như ai đó chá dám mở miệng lúc đang tranh cãi rồi đợi nguội mới dám đâm chọt sau lựng

Since we still have large numbers of M48 in reserve after the Vietnam War, we should ask Israelis to sign a contract to upgrade our M48s to Magach 6/7 standard if we have the money and we might as well continue to find a better modernization program for the T-54/55s too.

Hiểu biết quá chài, 1 nói VN không tiền mua vũ khí, 2 ngoặt sang nói mua thế sao bì được với TQ, lại tào lào này nọ về việc VN mua vũ khí TQ.
Thôi, bái phục anh, diễn tiếp đi.

 

[William Hung]

Holy pepperoni, looking at the location of those Barak 1 launchers, its definitely the short length of the missile that makes it possible to have so many VLS units.

Yes, Mica is 3 million and exocet is 5 million, crazy, but french stuff is very expensive.

In my opinion VN should it have ordered the Sigmas with KH-35 and Barak 8, that will save a lot of money.

Yes, and the barak-1 system can still be improved if they are integrated with a more modern radar such as the EL/M-2248 AESA (installed on the Indian Kolkata class and the 1000ton Israeli Saar 5) or there's the cheaper EL/M-2258 for smaller boat. With these newer radar, the capabilities of the Barak-1 will be higher (e.g. more multi target).

The French system for your Sigma seems to be a rip-off. I'd rather go for a complete Israeli system including the EL/M-2248 AESA radar and Barak-8. I'm pretty sure they can also integrate the KH-35 Uran with it.

 

[Carlosa]

Yes, and the barak-1 system can still be improved if they are integrated with a more modern radar such as the EL/M-2248 AESA (installed on the Indian Kolkata class and the 1000ton Israeli Saar 5) or there's the cheaper EL/M-2258 for smaller boat. With these newer radar, the capabilities of the Barak-1 will be higher (e.g. more multi target).

The French system for your Sigma seems to be a rip-off. I'd rather go for a complete Israeli system including the EL/M-2248 AESA radar and Barak-8. I'm pretty sure they can also integrate the KH-35 Uran with it.

I totally agree, I understand that VN wants the experience of western tech, but everything has limits and the money available is limited.

The Sigma ships at $350 million each are already very expensive, but when adding the cost of missiles, it gets crazy. Mica is good, but Barak 8 is way superior and lets not forget that Barak 8 was designed to intercept the Yakhon missiles that Syria has, so its perfect to intercept chinese supersonic missiles and at a range of 500 m to 70 km, I don't know of anything that comes close to it. Add the Israeli radar EL/M-2248 AESA and you have an AEGIS system, actually, the Israelis say that the Barak 8 is better than the AEGIS missiles.

Barak 8 missiles are $1.2 million by the way.

I'm not aware of anything that makes Exocet better than KH-35 which is 1.8 million, so from 5 million to 1.8, what do you get for that? Not worth it in my opinion.

The only thing that I consider very worth it in the Sigma is the Smart-S MK2 radar, but then again, the Israelis have a very good one too. I think Vietnam went too much for the standard Sigma package instead of mixing and customizing as India usually does.

 

[William Hung]

I am impressed

Why are you impressed so easily. He can use Google translate. Write something in Vietnamese slang without those marks and ask him to translate it into English.

I totally agree, I understand that VN wants the experience of western tech, but everything has limits and the money available is limited.

The Sigma ships at $350 million each are already very expensive, but when adding the cost of missiles, it gets crazy. Mica is good, but Barak 8 is way superior and lets not forget that Barak 8 was designed to intercept the Yakhon missiles that Syria has, so its perfect to intercept chinese supersonic missiles and at a range of 500 m to 70 km, I don't know of anything that comes close to it. Add the Israeli radar EL/M-2248 AESA and you have an AEGIS system, actually, the Israelis say that the Barak 8 is better than the AEGIS missiles.

Barak 8 missiles are $1.2 million by the way.

I'm not aware of anything that makes Exocet better than KH-35 which is 1.8 million, so from 5 million to 1.8, what do you get for that? Not worth it in my opinion.

The only thing that I consider very worth it in the Sigma is the Smart-S MK2 radar, but then again, the Israelis have a very good one too. I think Vietnam went too much for the standard Sigma package instead of mixing and customizing as India usually does.

Also the Indian are already using the Israeli system including the AESA radar and Barak (plus the KH-35) so they could help integrate the system (not to mention assisting with spare parts in the future).

I also think the Israeli EL/M-2248 AESA is better than the SMART-S, although I haven't compare their specs.

Yea, the Israeli AESA + Barak-8 would be way superior to the SMART-S + MICA.

A mini-Aegis indeed. Viet wouldn't have to demand the US for one if the VPA choose the Israeli system.

 

[Carlosa]

Yes, and the barak-1 system can still be improved if they are integrated with a more modern radar such as the EL/M-2248 AESA (installed on the Indian Kolkata class and the 1000ton Israeli Saar 5) or there's the cheaper EL/M-2258 for smaller boat. With these newer radar, the capabilities of the Barak-1 will be higher (e.g. more multi target).

The French system for your Sigma seems to be a rip-off. I'd rather go for a complete Israeli system including the EL/M-2248 AESA radar and Barak-8. I'm pretty sure they can also integrate the KH-35 Uran with it.

I just read something interesting about the Saar 5 corvettes. Before the upgrade, they had 64 Barak 1 missiles. After the upgrade they have 16 Barak 8 missiles. Interesting, Israel goes all out for the Barak 8. Those ships are about 1300 tons.

 

[Zeenar]

Magach 6/7 standard is only for the M-60 tank. Magach 5 would be the one for the M-48.
The T-54/55 can still be put to good use, but in my opinion, the Achilles heel of the Israeli T-55M3 upgrade program for those tanks is that it uses the old british L-7 gun of 105 mm. I feel it needs to be a 125 mm gun; there are other upgrades that use the 125 mm in the T-54/55.



Holy pepperoni, looking at the location of those Barak 1 launchers, its definitely the short length of the missile that makes it possible to have so many VLS units.

Yes, Mica is 3 million and exocet is 5 million, crazy, but french stuff is very expensive.

In my opinion VN should it have ordered the Sigmas with KH-35 and Barak 8, that will save a lot of money.

For T-54 upgrade i would suggest Al-Zarrar if it's possible, and Al-Zarrar was neither designed or made by Chineses.

 

[Carlosa]

Why are you impressed so easily. He can use Google translate. Write something in Vietnamese slang without those marks and ask him to translate it into English.



Also the Indian are already using the Israeli system including the AESA radar and Barak (plus the KH-35) so they could help integrate the system (not to mention assisting with spare parts in the future).

I also think the Israeli EL/M-2248 AESA is better than the SMART-S, although I haven't compare their specs.

Yea, the Israeli AESA + Barak-8 would be way superior to the SMART-S + MICA.

A mini-Aegis indeed. Viet wouldn't have to demand the US for one if the VPA choose the Israeli system.

Bingo, we found the solution for Viet, now he has to lobby the VN MOD for the Israeli systems.

Do you know how much is the radar EL/M-2248 per chance?

I think VN needs to get in bed with India for naval systems (that includes Israel); much more cost effective that the Europeans, everything European is very expensive.

For T-54 upgrade i would suggest Al-Zarrar if it's possible, and Al-Zarrar was neither designed or made by Chineses.

I agree, that's the upgrade I had in mind when I mentioned that there are other upgrades using the 125 mm gun. I don't know much about the quality of the electronic systems, but the gun, the turret and the overall feel of the tank is very good.

 

[Carlosa]

Why are you impressed so easily. He can use Google translate. Write something in Vietnamese slang without those marks and ask him to translate it into English.



Also the Indian are already using the Israeli system including the AESA radar and Barak (plus the KH-35) so they could help integrate the system (not to mention assisting with spare parts in the future).

I also think the Israeli EL/M-2248 AESA is better than the SMART-S, although I haven't compare their specs.

Yea, the Israeli AESA + Barak-8 would be way superior to the SMART-S + MICA.

A mini-Aegis indeed. Viet wouldn't have to demand the US for one if the VPA choose the Israeli system.

India has been suffering from never ending delays in their domestic procurement system, etc, but now the ships are starting to come out, system integration is getting finalized and with the new Modi guy that likes to do things in a business type of manner, I think they are going to have momentum, its time for VN to stick close to India and benefit from what they have.

 

[William Hung]

I just read something interesting about the Saar 5 corvettes. Before the upgrade, they had 64 Barak 1 missiles. After the upgrade they have 16 Barak 8 missiles. Interesting, Israel goes all out for the Barak 8. Those ships are about 1300 tons.

I think that's because Israel need those Saar to protect the newly diacovered gas field. So they need to replace the point defence system (barak-1) with the longer range area defence system (barak-8) to protect the gas field.

Bingo, we found the solution for Viet, now he has to lobby the VN MOD for the Israeli systems.

Do you know how much is the radar EL/M-2248 per chance?

I think VN needs to get in bed with India for naval systems (that includes Israel); much more cost effective that the Europeans, everything European is very expensive.

I think you can ask the Indian members here to know the cost for the EL/M-2248 AESA. They just recently bought theirs. @Gessler, any idea?

VN is already in bed with India and Israel. They just need to make the orders. India can provide the system training as well. And if the Israeli are ever forced to place an embargo on spare parts for any reason, VN still has India as a back up for spare parts. You dont have this backup with the French system.

Ah have to log off now, too much things to do early tomorrow morning.

 

[Zeenar]

Hiểu biết quá chài, 1 nói VN không tiền mua vũ khí, 2 ngoặt sang nói mua thế sao bì được với TQ, lại tào lào này nọ về việc VN mua vũ khí TQ.
Thôi, bái phục anh, diễn tiếp đi.

Thế thanh niên biết thì góp ý kiến cho mấy bác kia đi, sao cứ phải ở trong góc mà nói trổng thế, mà sự thật là VN có nhiều tiền không? nếu không thì làm ơn im đi.
And for the effective Anti-tank role against Chinese tanks, i suggest we should mount AT-4s on M113 APCs.

 

[Carlosa]

I think that's because Israel need those Saar to protect the newly diacovered gas field. So they need to replace the point defence system (barak-1) with the longer range area defence system (barak-8) to protect the gas field.



I think you can ask the Indian members here to know the cost for the EL/M-2248 AESA. They just recently bought theirs.

VN is already in bed with India and Israel. They just need to make the orders. India can provide the system training as well. And if the Israeli are ever forced to place an embargo on spare parts for any reason, VN still has India as a back up for spare parts. You dont have this backup with the French system.

Ah have to log off now, too much things to do early tomorrow morning.

Yes, that's what I mean, they need to make the orders and get things moving.

Frankly, I think VN has a lack of confidence in its own capabilities when it comes to military industries, they are too conservative, they don't want to take risks and they move very slowly. They used to do much better before 1975.
I see no reason why VN can't make its own armored vehicles, tanks, ships, etc. I don't know, I just feel that.

O.k., thank you, take care man.

 

[Viet]

For T-54 upgrade i would suggest Al-Zarrar if it's possible, and Al-Zarrar was neither designed or made by Chineses.

too late. I read the army has chosen Israel. the upgraded version is called T-54M3. the modernization would be carried out similar to of T-55M3: with new 105-mm main gun, fire control system, machine gun, gearbox and transmission, mortar/grenade launcher, German 1,000 HP diesel engine, reactive armour, etc...

with modern ammo, the upgraded tank can destroy any modern tanks at an effective range of 1,000m.

 

[Zeenar]

too late. I read the army has chosen Israel. the upgraded version is called T-54M3. the modernization would be carried out similar to of T-55M3: with new main gun, fire control system. machine gun, gearbox and transmission, etc...

Lol no man VPA has already abandoned the project because it didn't help much, Israelis only improved armour and electronics while VPA is looking for an upgrade version of T-54 which improves both Firepower and Protection and I believe Al-Zarrar is suitable for that.