Vietnam Defence Forum

[Edison Chen]

Edison, you seem to be quite an smart man, why do you think that national interest should include empire building at the expense of other countries? The time of empires already passed, in the 21st century the new modality of empire is domination by financial and cultural means, USA is the best example of that and china was doing a good job at it until Mr. Xi came along and started empire building by means of aggression and force; that way of doing things will be the downfall of china, everybody will unite against china and china will lose in the end. Chinese people need to open their eyes before its too late, they are on a path to disaster..

That's correct, in fact the US influence the world by the aggressive financial domination, they have the pricing power over natural resources like crude oil, agricultural product. The USD is world reserve currency with more than 80% trading volume, times larger than Euros and JP yen combined. They can also inject inflation by quantitative easing to developing market including China, ASEAN, etc, namely, the US is also maintaining its national interest at the expense of other country, but by a rather "civilized or obscure" way. If the QE pulled out, the ASEAN economy is badly affected, in fact, the capital has been flowing out from developing market since last year. The US economy is pretty good this year, Dow Jones stands on 17,000, they also added 288,000 jobs in June and the unemployment rate fell to 6.1% from 6.3% and the wages also grow by 6%. The better the US economy performs, the more probability the QE pulls out, the worse situation is for developing countries, but China is less affected due to our 4 trillion reserve. This is how strong the US is. But the US was not born with this, they developed to be rich by industrializing, they capitalize on world natural resources like any other country does. China is on a different phase of development, if the US is on the maturity stage, China is still on the mid developing stage, unlike the US, we still rely on resources too much, due to our economy structure, most of which are heavy manufacturing and natural resource consuming industry. China's economy is not yet high tech driven, our financial power is not yet dominating enough to give us more leverage in international affairs, China's currency is not even top mostly traded, we have real estate issue, shadow banking problem, and any other issue that every country could face. US also has a very superior location, with only 2 land border nations connected, and the Pacific and Atlantic as natural barrier. China is different, we have more than 15 adjacent neighbors with the border line, it's too hard to avoid conflicts, and as I can see, given that situation, China has been very modest. LOL, amigo! I don't think it's a way to disaster, even if so, I think ASEAN can't be totally immune from the bad consequence of domino effect after China's crash. Are you a Spanish origin while residents in VN now? I really hope more people like you can hold sidelines...or from a observer's point of view. Welcome to China anyway!

 

[Carlosa]

That's correct, in fact the US influence the world by the aggressive financial domination, they have the pricing power over natural resources like crude oil, agricultural product. The USD is world reserve currency with more than 80% trading volume, times larger than Euros and JP yen combined. They can also inject inflation by quantitative easing to developing market including China, ASEAN, etc, namely, the US is also maintaining its national interest at the expense of other country, but by a rather "civilized or obscure" way. If the QE pulled out, the ASEAN economy is badly affected, in fact, the capital has been flowing out from developing market since last year. The US economy is pretty good this year, Dow Jones stands on 17,000, they also added 288,000 jobs in June and the unemployment rate fell to 6.1% from 6.3% and the wages also grow by 6%. The better the US economy performs, the more probability the QE pulls out, the worse situation is for developing countries, but China is less affected due to our 4 trillion reserve. This is how strong the US is. But the US was not born with this, they developed to be rich by industrializing, they capitalize on world natural resources like any other country does. China is on a different phase of development, if the US is on the maturity stage, China is still on the mid developing stage, unlike the US, we still rely on resources too much, due to our economy structure, most of which are heavy manufacturing and natural resource consuming industry. China's economy is not yet high tech driven, our financial power is not yet dominating enough to give us more leverage in international affairs, China's currency is not even top mostly traded, we have real estate issue, shadow banking problem, and any other issue that every country could face. US also has a very superior location, with only 2 land border nations connected, and the Pacific and Atlantic as natural barrier. China is different, we have more than 15 adjacent neighbors with the border line, it's too hard to avoid conflicts, and as I can see, given that situation, China has been very modest. LOL, amigo! I don't think it's a way to disaster, even if so, I think ASEAN can't be totally immune from the bad consequence of domino effect after China's crash. Are you a Spanish origin while residents in VN now? I really hope more people like you can hold sidelines...or from a observer's point of view. Welcome to China anyway!

You said it very right, that's exactly the way it is. My point is, considering the complicated geographical situation that China has, being basically cut off by the first island chain, i can see why China wants to break from those shackles and achieve regional domination and control as a way of security insurance and after all, that's the historical model of how big powers behave, after all USA did some of that too, they took Hawaii just because they wanted, they created an incident with Spain in 1898 in order to create a war to eliminate the last european colonial post (Cuba) near them, took the Phillippines, made Puerto Rico a client state, established the Monroe doctrine and pretty much declared the Americas their domain where they do as they please and if some banana country opposes a US corporation, then there go the marines.

My point is, that's the old way of doing things, in the globalized economy of today and the globalized connectivity brought about by the internet, etc, everything gets exposed easily for what it is and all the players being very interdependent, can only go so far before they bring upon a counter reaction and in the end all parties lose. Actions of a limited scope can happen and are happening but more than that has a big risk.

The truth is, nobody really threatens China, nobody is going to invade China, there is no need to become paranoid about security, go on the offensive, threaten everybody in the region and then as a consequence of that, enemies and threats are really created and then all the bets are off about what the future can bring. What's the point of making an enemy out of Japan, push them to abandon their pacifist ways, play on the hands of the Japanese right wing (which are not nice people at all), how about if they become a nuclear power (something that they can do very easily)? How is that improving China's security?

China would be better off rising peacefully and let the other empire naturally decline itself and allow the region to achieve a stable balance. Win win always works better than I win, you lose.

I said disaster could come to China just because once you enter a certain dynamic, its not easy to control events or predict reactions, things can get out of hand easily, even if not intended and before you know it, bang, you have a big war in your hands and then everybody loses.

Yes, I'm Spanish living in Danang, Vietnam. I've been in southeast Asia for a number of years including China on and off, in fact I just came to Shenzhen a few days ago on a 3 week trip. Since I'm not vietnamese or chinese I try to stay objective about the situation and understand both sides, but I can get aggressive sometimes, ha ha, I have to watch it. Nice talking with you!

 

[Viet]

Keep in mind that those SU-27's have been around for many years.

Actually, when it comes to aircraft, the Russians are delivering in quite ok timing, the ships is where they take forever. VN ordered 12 SU-30's last year and they are getting 4 this year and 8 next year, that's considered quite ok.

Its up to VN to make the decision to order the SU-35, its available for orders; hopefully soon.
What I've heard in the mp forum is that VN plans to order 12 SU-34's and 12 SU-35's, we'll see.

some latest news from the russian cold front:

Vietnam is negotiating with Russia of buying more Yakhonts, SU-30s and a number of air defense systems, likely S-300 and so. Plus we will become #1 partner of Russia in the field of military technical cooperation in Southeast Asia.

Vietnam To Buy Additional Missiles Bastion-P From Russia

 

[Carlosa]

China withdraws the oil rig from disputed waters

HANOI, Vietnam (AP) — China on Wednesday moved an oil rig that it had deployed in a section of the South China Sea, triggering a dispute with Vietnam.

Beijing deployed the massive rig in early May close to the Paracel Islands, triggering a furious reaction in Hanoi and the most serious uptick in tensions in the waters in years.

Hanoi demanded Beijing withdraw the rig, and sent ships to the region to try and disrupt the operations. The Chinese move triggered protests in Vietnam and deadly anti-Chinese riots.

Beijing insisted it had done nothing wrong because the waters belonged to it.

The official Xinhua News Agency said Wednesday that the China National Petroleum Corp on Tuesday announced the end of the operation, citing the beginning of the typhoon season.

It said the rig would be relocated to operations close to China's Hainan Island.

Ha Le, deputy director of Vietnam's fisheries resources surveillance department, said China began removing the rig and escorting vessels Tuesday night, and by 8 am Wednesday it was 40 nautical miles northwest of its original location and continuing to move toward Hainan island.

"We don't know what will China do next following the removal of the Haiyang Shiyou oil rig 981," Le said "We will monitor the situation in the East Sea closely and be ready with other law enforcement agencies to defend our sovereignty," referring to the South China Sea.

Le said 30 vessels from Vietnam's coast guard and fisheries patrol forces that were sent to try to force the Chinese oil rig away will return to port to avoid the incoming Rammasun typhoon.

The Xinhua report said the company found oil and gas during the operation, but was assessing the data gathered before deciding its next move.

It has always been unclear whether the Beijing deployed the rig for genuine commercial reasons or as part of strategy of staking out its territorial claims in the region. When it announced the deployment, Beijing said it would withdraw it on Aug. 15.

The deployment of the rig was seen as a highly provocative move by China, which it claims nearly all of the South China Sea, bringing it into conflict with Vietnam, the Philippines and other nations.

Beijing's growing economic and military might is unnerving many countries in the region, as well as the United States, which is seeking closer ties with Southeast Asia to try to contain China.

The United States criticized the rig placement "as part of a broader pattern of Chinese behavior to advance its claims over disputed territory in a manner that undermines peace and stability in the region."

 

[Viet]

China withdraws the oil rig from disputed waters

HANOI, Vietnam (AP) — China on Wednesday moved an oil rig that it had deployed in a section of the South China Sea, triggering a dispute with Vietnam.

Beijing deployed the massive rig in early May close to the Paracel Islands, triggering a furious reaction in Hanoi and the most serious uptick in tensions in the waters in years.

Hanoi demanded Beijing withdraw the rig, and sent ships to the region to try and disrupt the operations. The Chinese move triggered protests in Vietnam and deadly anti-Chinese riots.

Beijing insisted it had done nothing wrong because the waters belonged to it.

The official Xinhua News Agency said Wednesday that the China National Petroleum Corp on Tuesday announced the end of the operation, citing the beginning of the typhoon season.

It said the rig would be relocated to operations close to China's Hainan Island.

Ha Le, deputy director of Vietnam's fisheries resources surveillance department, said China began removing the rig and escorting vessels Tuesday night, and by 8 am Wednesday it was 40 nautical miles northwest of its original location and continuing to move toward Hainan island.

"We don't know what will China do next following the removal of the Haiyang Shiyou oil rig 981," Le said "We will monitor the situation in the East Sea closely and be ready with other law enforcement agencies to defend our sovereignty," referring to the South China Sea.

Le said 30 vessels from Vietnam's coast guard and fisheries patrol forces that were sent to try to force the Chinese oil rig away will return to port to avoid the incoming Rammasun typhoon.

The Xinhua report said the company found oil and gas during the operation, but was assessing the data gathered before deciding its next move.

It has always been unclear whether the Beijing deployed the rig for genuine commercial reasons or as part of strategy of staking out its territorial claims in the region. When it announced the deployment, Beijing said it would withdraw it on Aug. 15.

The deployment of the rig was seen as a highly provocative move by China, which it claims nearly all of the South China Sea, bringing it into conflict with Vietnam, the Philippines and other nations.

Beijing's growing economic and military might is unnerving many countries in the region, as well as the United States, which is seeking closer ties with Southeast Asia to try to contain China.

The United States criticized the rig placement "as part of a broader pattern of Chinese behavior to advance its claims over disputed territory in a manner that undermines peace and stability in the region."

That's a good news. Now we must accelerate to acquire military means to prevent them to come back.

 

[Viet]

Amigo Viet, an idea for you or someone else reading this; Wikipedia has a nice page about the Vietnamese coast guard listing all the ships, etc, but the page for the Fisheries Department Surveillance Force is very basic and doesn't list anything. It would be nice if someone can make a table with the listing of ships like in the coast guard page. I can edit those listings but I can't make one from scratch. That would be a nice little project. I also see that you pick up good info about the new ships and I guess you get it from the vietnamese press, that's something I can't do since I can't read vietnamese, so I think you could be the right guy for that project if you are interested. Just a suggestion.

Here is the url: Vietnam Fisheries Resources Surveillance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Let me see. Though I am pretty sure our people will soon update the page.

 

[NiceGuy]

That's a good news. Now we must accelerate to acquire military means to prevent them to come back.

Yeah, big storms r coming , they must run away before the storms crush their rig, their ships to pieces

But they may come back after storm season end (October or November). SO, its time for VN to gain more support before the next round start.

 

[Viet]

two new missile Molniya corvettes, coded HQ-377 and HQ-378, built by Ba Son Shipyard for the navy

 

[BoQ77]

This baby cost 120,000 USD each

 

[Viet]

Summary: Microsoft is aligning Nokia's operations in markets where Windows Phone is successful. Lower costs in Vietnam relative to China are also a nice incentive to move manufacturing. Brazil and Mexico sites also get a bump.



By Larry Dignan for Between the Lines | July 17, 2014 -- 18:16 GMT (19:16 BST)

Follow @ldignan

Amid a large restructuring of its Nokia unit, Microsoft is also joining many technology companies moving manufacturing from China to Vietnam. Microsoft is also moving operations to Brazil and Mexico.

Microsoft on Thursday said it will lay off 18,000 employees, with many of them being factory workers in China. According to Stephen Elop, chief of Microsoft's devices unit, the software giant will move its device manufacturing and marketing operations to markets where Windows Phone has some traction.

• Read more: Who else is Microsoft laying off? | Microsoft lays off 18,000 employees | Nokia's Android X2 experiment ends | Microsoft to discontinue Nokia Asha and S40 feature phones

Elop said in an email to employees that Microsoft will scale back engineering efforts in Beijing, but keep a team focused on affordable devices.

As for manufacturing, Microsoft's Nokia unit is swapping China for Hanoi, Vietnam, Brazil and Mexico.

Elop said:

"We plan to right-size our manufacturing operations to align to the new strategy and take advantage of integration opportunities. We expect to focus phone production mainly in Hanoi, with some production to continue in Beijing and Dongguan. We plan to shift other Microsoft manufacturing and repair operations to Manaus and Reynosa respectively, and start a phased exit from Komaron, Hungary.

In short, we will focus on driving Lumia volume in the areas where we are already successful today in order to make the market for Windows Phone. With more speed, we will build on our success in the affordable smartphone space with new products offering more differentiation. We’ll focus on acquiring new customers in the markets where Microsoft’s services and products are most concentrated. And, we’ll continue building momentum around applications."

Microsoft isn't the first tech giant to scale back its China manufacturing. To wit:

• Samsung plans to shift production from China to Vietnam to preserve profit margins.
• Intel has operations in Vietnam.
• LG also has plants in Vietnam.

What's happened to China is simple. There's a middle class emerging and wages are going up. A factory worker in Hanoi makes $145 a month compared to $466 in Beijing, according to the Japan External Trade Organization (JETRO). Electricity and water costs are also lower in Hanoi. Meanwhile, Vietnam is aggressively courting technology companies and plans to have 30 percent of its industrial product deriving from high-tech.

Worker's monthly salary base
Topics: Hardware, Microsoft, Tech Industry


Microsoft moves Nokia manufacturing from China to Vietnam | ZDNet

My comment:

That is sad that we lag decades behind other peers in the region. The endless wars had taken toll on the economy and income.

Let´s hope that many other major international cooperations will follow Microsoft and also move production bases. I read, too, Samsung is going shutdown gradually all production facitities and relocate to Vietnam.

We need to catch up.

 

[Edison Chen]

Summary: Microsoft is aligning Nokia's operations in markets where Windows Phone is successful. Lower costs in Vietnam relative to China are also a nice incentive to move manufacturing. Brazil and Mexico sites also get a bump.



By Larry Dignan for Between the Lines | July 17, 2014 -- 18:16 GMT (19:16 BST)

Follow @ldignan

Amid a large restructuring of its Nokia unit, Microsoft is also joining many technology companies moving manufacturing from China to Vietnam. Microsoft is also moving operations to Brazil and Mexico.

Microsoft on Thursday said it will lay off 18,000 employees, with many of them being factory workers in China. According to Stephen Elop, chief of Microsoft's devices unit, the software giant will move its device manufacturing and marketing operations to markets where Windows Phone has some traction.

• Read more: Who else is Microsoft laying off? | Microsoft lays off 18,000 employees | Nokia's Android X2 experiment ends | Microsoft to discontinue Nokia Asha and S40 feature phones

Elop said in an email to employees that Microsoft will scale back engineering efforts in Beijing, but keep a team focused on affordable devices.

As for manufacturing, Microsoft's Nokia unit is swapping China for Hanoi, Vietnam, Brazil and Mexico.

Elop said:

"We plan to right-size our manufacturing operations to align to the new strategy and take advantage of integration opportunities. We expect to focus phone production mainly in Hanoi, with some production to continue in Beijing and Dongguan. We plan to shift other Microsoft manufacturing and repair operations to Manaus and Reynosa respectively, and start a phased exit from Komaron, Hungary.

In short, we will focus on driving Lumia volume in the areas where we are already successful today in order to make the market for Windows Phone. With more speed, we will build on our success in the affordable smartphone space with new products offering more differentiation. We’ll focus on acquiring new customers in the markets where Microsoft’s services and products are most concentrated. And, we’ll continue building momentum around applications."

Microsoft isn't the first tech giant to scale back its China manufacturing. To wit:

• Samsung plans to shift production from China to Vietnam to preserve profit margins.
• Intel has operations in Vietnam.
• LG also has plants in Vietnam.

What's happened to China is simple. There's a middle class emerging and wages are going up. A factory worker in Hanoi makes $145 a month compared to $466 in Beijing, according to the Japan External Trade Organization (JETRO). Electricity and water costs are also lower in Hanoi. Meanwhile, Vietnam is aggressively courting technology companies and plans to have 30 percent of its industrial product deriving from high-tech.

Worker's monthly salary base
Topics: Hardware, Microsoft, Tech Industry


Microsoft moves Nokia manufacturing from China to Vietnam | ZDNet

My comment:

That is sad that we lag decades behind other peers in the region. The endless wars had taken toll on the economy and income.

Let´s hope that many other major international cooperations will follow Microsoft and also move production bases. I read, too, Samsung is going shutdown gradually all production facitities and relocate to Vietnam.

We need to catch up.

Glad to see Chinese worker's monthly salary rising.

 

[xunzi]

Get your facts straight. Samsung is expanding in China because we have a huge market and educated workforce. Microsoft Nokia is out because they can't compete with our firm and Samsung. So they try to go to your market. Nobody buys a Nokia anymore. It's chunk.

 

[itaskol]

glad to see，
good work china

 

[cnleio]

Nokia ... was ever a great cellphone company, now the little brother of Microsoft.
What about Win8 OS on Nokia Lumia phone, Can i running PC Apps on a Win8 phone?

I just check Nokia Win8 Lumia price 600~1000RMB cheaper than Samsung Android phone.

 

[Aepsilons]