Used F16's - EDA 50 ~ 100 Available

[DJ_Viper]

French is very snobbish. Date back to 1990s, we cant afford to buy Mirage2000 and instead they sell it to Taiwan. The French philosophy is that: if you don't buy my weapon, I will sell it to your enemy. A country can't rely on totally!

I agree. That is how they do business. Or as a French friend of mine puts it, "for hard cash, the French will sell you anything". There is little "relationship" care in their dealings. Unless one is buying 60 and their enemy is buying 150. Then the bigger order would win and that would be the higher priority relationship like it happened in India-Pakistan's case with respect to Rafale being at 126 orders (then scaled down to like 36 lol).

 

[araz]

It is NOT the actual cost of the F16 spares, but the humiliation of having to buy from a tyrannical genocidal maniac, who also happens to be a sworn enemy. Had the M2k been flying in PAF colors, the embargo would have meant nothing, and in all probability would not have happened.

You do realize that between the "mid-90's," and now, there is a two decades gap.

As stated earlier, our defence procurement policy has always been well thought of, and long term, but you claim it is based on "the whim of rulers," please provide evidence to back your claim.

It might interest some members to note, that none of the other Emirates have a say in our procurement policy, this is strictly an Abu Dhabi domain. Since Abu Dhabi pays the bills.

In the mid-90's Dubai's Armed Forces (Central Military Command), were autonomous, and not under the UAE Armed Forces GHQ in Abu Dhabi. That has since changed. This is just an example of how things have drastically changed over the decades. Therefore making a statement, based on two decades old info, might not be such a good idea.

Thank You.

Thank you for your post. If by your logic we have bought and been humiliated by the Israelis why has UAE gone and set up shop with the Hindus of India who have been carrying out Gwnocids of Kashmiri muslims? It seems this logic gets flawed in times of need. You buy whatever you need from who so ever is willing to sell. The late ruler of Abu Dhabi was a great friend of Pakistan but dictates and necezzities demanded that he bailex out of rescuing the Bank( I forget its namebut you will know which one I mean) in which he had majority shares. I think you need to be pragmatic and recognize that necessities of Governance demands unsavoury decisions (Sulha e Hudaibiyya) which to an outsider may seem very unjust. It is no reflection on the Governance madalities of the UAE government but just making tough decisions in difficult times.
A

 

[DJ_Viper]

which fighter will counter Indian FGFA Su50 and F-35 they are going to buy them in numbers

You have to think objectively. The short answer is neither, and the PAF is also not in the business of countering 1:1 (size, economy, budget, etc). But the PAF will have a deterrence platform to indirectly counter these. So J-31 with TOT or with part internal manufacturing would make sense and will make it cheaper for Pakistan to afford it in decent numbers. But Pakistan needs beyond J-31 to be honest. There would be (and should be) focus on two other things: 1: JV with Turkish companies on their Stealthy platform. They'll use a lot of Western tech so it makes sense to learn all that and have that platform. 2: Turn the JFT block III or IV into Stealth. That is by far the cheapest yet most affordable punch. The aircraft is small and cheaper to produce. Turn it into a Stealthy plane, and it would still be the cheapest and yet, very effective with advance weapons systems.

So let's say, 60 J-31's, plus 40 or 60 Turkish JV Stealth + JFT block IV 100-120 of those. That's a Stealthy force of over 220 aircraft. Like 30-40% of the PAF's strength. That can counter the IAF very effectively. IMO, the JFT program should be called a Stealthy program going into block III and beyond.

Because you don't need yesterday's jets to fight tomorrow's war. Its going to be stealth vs. stealth. I hope the PAF's commanders are thinking like that.

 

[SQ8]

It is NOT the actual cost of the F16 spares, but the humiliation of having to buy from a tyrannical genocidal maniac, who also happens to be a sworn enemy. Had the M2k been flying in PAF colors, the embargo would have meant nothing, and in all probability would not have happened.

You do realize that between the "mid-90's," and now, there is a two decades gap.

As stated earlier, our defence procurement policy has always been well thought of, and long term, but you claim it is based on "the whim of rulers," please provide evidence to back your claim.

It might interest some members to note, that none of the other Emirates have a say in our procurement policy, this is strictly an Abu Dhabi domain. Since Abu Dhabi pays the bills.

In the mid-90's Dubai's Armed Forces (Central Military Command), were autonomous, and not under the UAE Armed Forces GHQ in Abu Dhabi. That has since changed. This is just an example of how things have drastically changed over the decades. Therefore making a statement, based on two decades old info, might not be such a good idea.

Thank You.

The first paragraph is irrelevant emotional semantics, the second paragraph is you trying to defend your country's image no matter what- understable but nothing I have interest in indulging in a tit for tat for as it is irrelevant to the topic

 

[Readerdefence]

Maybe you can make a survey by opening a new thread in China section, titled as " shall China sell J10 to BAF?" I feel stressed out in this topic. I don't know what to do...... It's government decision, not mine. If china doesn't sell what BAF seriously ask for, India will take it as a propaganda to promote weapons to BAF. We can't let those who pro-China down. Maybe it's J10A, cause we don't have export license for B version yet. Also can't exclude the possibility of FC1/JF17 manufactured in CAC.

China's strategy is to unite BD with China/Pakistan to suppress India's expansion desire.

That's alright friend I don't want you to stress out offcourse it's not your decision
As I have give through the BD posters on SDF as how china is ready to give them
Soft loans against acquiring j10
My thought is if china can provide soft loans to BD then there isn't any problem
For Pakistan to get those

Beside getting j31 either with or without TOT
Couple of more things which can be added quickly with the Chinese
Help is long range and more medium range SAM as much as we can
With net centric and another thing which can easily or I should say
ASAP is stealth detecting radars if we have these two things on our
Priority list we can at least be at par with India in our own air space
And these two things china has already achieved quiet a lot

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

You are full of it. Messiach did you right---where you wanted to look important about the chinese engines---you were winging left and right---she set you right with just one sentence---.




Have the courage to answer him right---in a proper manner---.

You have a habbit of lying---and then cover it with---" i don't want to indulge "

Stop hiding behind the moderator flag---.

Did your kids call you this week or are you having another one of your lonesome retirement pangs. If it comes to whether the taurus is good enough for trade ins Ill ask you- but otherwise feel free to not quote me in your usual wistful wishes to remain relevant to the younger ones and get your ten minutes of fame.

 

[Pak.one]

You have to think objectively. The short answer is neither, and the PAF is also not in the business of countering 1:1 (size, economy, budget, etc). But the PAF will have a deterrence platform to indirectly counter these. So J-31 with TOT or with part internal manufacturing would make sense and will make it cheaper for Pakistan to afford it in decent numbers. But Pakistan needs beyond J-31 to be honest. There would be (and should be) focus on two other things: 1: JV with Turkish companies on their Stealthy platform. They'll use a lot of Western tech so it makes sense to learn all that and have that platform. 2: Turn the JFT block III or IV into Stealth. That is by far the cheapest yet most affordable punch. The aircraft is small and cheaper to produce. Turn it into a Stealthy plane, and it would still be the cheapest and yet, very effective with advance weapons systems.

So let's say, 60 J-31's, plus 40 or 60 Turkish JV Stealth + JFT block IV 100-120 of those. That's a Stealthy force of over 220 aircraft. Like 30-40% of the PAF's strength. That can counter the IAF very effectively. IMO, the JFT program should be called a Stealthy program going into block III and beyond.

Because you don't need yesterday's jets to fight tomorrow's war. Its going to be stealth vs. stealth. I hope the PAF's commanders are thinking like that.

Very well said bro

 

[Khafee]

The first paragraph is irrelevant emotional semantics, the second paragraph is you trying to defend your country's image no matter what- understable but nothing I have interest in indulging in a tit for tat for as it is irrelevant to the topic

The first para, is how corruption cut off PAF at the knees, sorry to say.

And the second paragraph is questioning your statements, based on two decades old, half baked info. If it is not relevant to the topic, you shouldn't have brought it up.

Did your kids call you this week or are you having another one of your lonesome retirement pangs. If it comes to whether the taurus is good enough for trade ins Ill ask you- but otherwise feel free to not quote me in your usual wistful wishes to remain relevant to the younger ones and get your ten minutes of fame.

So when you can't refute an argument, you resort to personal insults?

I am seriously disappointed with you. Thought you were a better man.

 

[araz]

The first para, is how corruption cut off PAF at the knees, sorry to say.

And the second paragraph is questioning your statements, based on two decades old, half baked info. If it is not relevant to the topic, you shouldn't have brought it up.



So when you can't refute an argument, you resort to personal insults?

I am seriously disappointed with you. Thought you were a better man.

The first or rather the second go at buying the M2K indeed fell prey to corruption. However after 90 days when the deal was resubmitted the French refused to abide by it. It may point to the fact that there were more than one benefactors from both sides to the 10 million dollars per plane hike in the price. Rest is history albeit an unfortunate chain of events.
A

 

[el nino]

You have to think objectively. The short answer is neither, and the PAF is also not in the business of countering 1:1

So let's say, 60 J-31's, plus 40 or 60 Turkish JV Stealth + JFT block IV 100-120 of those. That's a Stealthy force of over 220 aircraft. Like 30-40% of the PAF's strength. That can counter the IAF very effectively. IMO, the JFT program should be called a Stealthy program going into block III and beyond.

Because you don't need yesterday's jets to fight tomorrow's war. Its going to be stealth vs. stealth. I hope the PAF's commanders are thinking like that.[/QUOTE

This is beyond reasonable probability

I suggest you look at PAF procurement policy for the last four decades to understand the extreme limitations they operate in .

Second used fighters
Small numbers of grant aided western fighters from USA
Cheaper second tier chinease fighters.


As for joining any foreign fighter program this is not a open invitation to come empty handed to join tfx programmer which is decades away from reaching reality,. You bring billions of dollars to the table somebody may say fine or cutting edge stealth technology of your own they may allow you to join. Othervwise nobody is inviting you to party.

That leaves j31 probably around 2025

Currently thunders are costing you people 28million each for block 2

The j10 you have eyed since 2006 yet you have never come close to buying one , they cost 45 million each minimum block c maybe 50 million

J11 will run even more than this and probably can't be exported

So how much will a fifty generation fighter cost you

STILL THINK YOU BUYING SIXTY

 

[Khafee]

The first or rather the second go at buying the M2K indeed fell prey to corruption. However after 90 days when the deal was resubmitted the French refused to abide by it. It may point to the fact that there were more than one benefactors from both sides to the 10 million dollars per plane hike in the price. Rest is history albeit an unfortunate chain of events.
A

As anyone with a half a brain knows, having a sole supplier is always detrimental to your health. The JF17 is a good step, but something interim needs to come in. Possibly leasing aircrafts, or having 2 or 3 PLAAF squadrons permanently placed, would be a good idea, if no new platform is up for induction till the 5th Gen come in.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

You are full of it. Messiach did you right---where you wanted to look important about the chinese engines---you were winging left and right---she set you right with just one sentence---.




Have the courage to answer him right---in a proper manner---.

You have a habbit of lying---and then cover it with---" i don't want to indulge "

Stop hiding behind the moderator flag---.

Did your kids call you this week or are you having another one of your lonesome retirement pangs. If it comes to whether the taurus is good enough for trade ins Ill ask you- but otherwise feel free to not quote me in your usual wistful wishes to remain relevant to the younger ones and get your ten minutes of fame.

Come on guys...you are both respectable and both think about Pakistan ... Just try to understand each other's POV and just respect that fact..

 

[Windjammer]

@MastanKhan @Khafee @Oscar
All you guys are either senior citizens or title holders, you should be an example for us and rest of PDF community. We are often reminded to agree to disagree and move on, why don't you gents practice the same.
Mastan Sahib, i haven't had the pleasure of meeting you but since i have met Oscar, i can assure you he must be young enough to be your son. We all need to lower the tempo a few notches as every second thread seems to turn into a slagging match. All you three guys have vast knowledge in their fields with some of you with actual industry experience, you could all enhance our knowledge rather than showing each other in bad light.
Kindly live up to your standards and our expectations. Thanks.

 

[Blue Marlin]

since there is a void in pakistan deep strike capability( none existant) dont you think its wise wise just to ignorea 4th gen strike fighter and work on a 5th gen fighter. heck look at the j31 pt1 it has a weapons bay for 4 missiles the updated pt2/3 has 6. which is the same as the f22 raptors main belly load.

maybe the j31 is being designed for pakistan's need (deep strike)

also the increase in size would mean it the updated j31 would be powered by the more mature ws -10 series engines.

 

[Khafee]

since there is a void in pakistan deep strike capability( none existant) dont you think its wise wise just to ignorea 4th gen strike fighter and work on a 5th gen fighter. heck look at the j31 pt1 it has a weapons bay for 4 missiles the updated pt2/3 has 6. which is the same as the f22 raptors main belly load.

maybe the j31 is being designed for pakistan's need (deep strike)

also the increase in size would mean it the updated j31 would be powered by the more mature ws -10 series engines.

From PT to Production Aircraft takes time, what is the interim solution?
There is a gap, what can it be filled with?