Used F16's - EDA 50 ~ 100 Available

[Thorough Pro]

That is assuming no one has attempted or destroyed the other ones nukes or the strategic command structures already, they seem like pretty nice, fighting by the rules kind of enemies.

That in my opinion is a very wrong and very dangerous (suicidal) assumption. I think the way Indians are prepping for the war, they will take a chance a surprise massive strike on all our nuclear assets and expecting to intercept a few that survive and are fires by Pakistan, even if a few get through their defences, what do they lose a few hundred thousand Indians, they got plenty already and may be "thinning the herd" is also part of their war plan to get rid of a few million of them.

Because by the tenth day either we have a ceasefire or nuclear war

 

[Raider 21]

J11 & J16's are unlicensed copies of the Su-27. Russia, has made it very clear, that these should not be exported, China has agreed, and that is that. China is still reliant on Russia for things like aircraft engines, S400, etc. it will not risk irritating Russia.
.

I'm not sure about the J-16, but the J-11 is a licensed built Su-27SK.

 

[Khafee]

That is assuming no one has attempted or destroyed the other ones nukes or the strategic command structures already, they seem like pretty nice, fighting by the rules kind of enemies.

That in my opinion is a very wrong and very dangerous (suicidal) assumption.

Nukes and Strategic Command Structures, are designed in such a manner, that they would be the last to go. Not first. Pakistan has focused on it's BM's being road mobile for a reason, so the probability of them being wiped out 100%, is well understood by any enemy, and is one reason why a direct confrontation, has not happened as of yet. Although, given the lunatics that surround Pakistan, should have happened long ago.

 

[Thorough Pro]

But they are not mobile all the time, at least not in the peace time. They are parked/stored somewhere and it's not hard to find most of them with HD satellite imagery. If we had some 50/60 sub-launched operational ballistic missiles on 5/6 subs with significant range, and the subs were deployed 24/7 then yes.

Nukes and Strategic Command Structures, are designed in such a manner, that they would be the last to go. Not first. Pakistan has focused on it's BM's being road mobile for a reason, so the probability of them being wiped out 100%, is well understood by any enemy, and is one reason why a direct confrontation, has not happened as of yet. Although, given the lunatics that surround Pakistan, should have happened long ago.

 

[Khafee]

But they are not mobile all the time, at least not in the peace time. They are parked/stored somewhere and it's not hard to find most of them with HD satellite imagery. If we had some 50/60 sub-launched operational ballistic missiles on 5/6 subs with significant range, and the subs were deployed 24/7 then yes.

1) Have you ever seen HD Satellite imagery?
2) Do you know how easy it is to fool it?
3) Road mobile BM's, or rather TEL's would scatter at the hint of hostilities, they wouldn't wait for bombs to start raining to leave their peace time positions.

It is a very big gamble for an enemy to take them out. One accidentally going of, while being incapacitated, could have have the wrong implication's for the enemy i.e. the defender could use that ,as an excuse and reply in kind. Not a good scenario.

Besides, those TEL's that the enemy does not neutralize, will insure payback = another headache for the attacker.

In short, 10 days is too optimistic a time frame, in my humble opinion, 2 ~3 days, and things would be at nuclear flashpoint, or ceasefire.

I'm not sure about the J-16, but the J-11 is a licensed built Su-27SK.

The Russians disagree with you:

"China's Shengyang J-11 unlicensed derivative of the Russian-developed Su-27 Flanker has become the mainstay of the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF)."
https://sputniknews.com/military/201509181027206197/

 

[Raider 21]

The Russians disagree with you:

"China's Shengyang J-11 unlicensed derivative of the Russian-developed Su-27 Flanker has become the mainstay of the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF)."
https://sputniknews.com/military/201509181027206197/

I meant that the J-11A is the licence-built version of the Su-27SK. The J-11B is the indigenously-produced version of the Su-27. Anything above the A version is a copy. The Russians that you're speaking on behalf of, are talking about the J-11D.

 

[HRK]

You conveniently forgot the day Musharraf agreed to the day the earthquake happened---there was 4 years and approximately 12 days for Paf to have signed a deal for an aircraft--

Even after removal of sanctions in 2001, US did not agreed to sales F-16s

Despite the September 22, 2001 Presidential Determination waiving the Pressler Amendment and other sanctions on India and Pakistan, the Administration’s current five- year, $ 3 billion aid package will reportedly not include the promised F-16s, despite President Musharraf’s request that their sale be approved.

CRS REPORT: ADA454698 page 12

in 2002 when Mushraf was visiting USA there were issues which were sorted out later

Musharraf raised the same issues of longer-term economic and national security concern to Pakistan as he did in November, officials from both countries said. But while Bush repeated that the administration was working on these concerns, progress has been slow.
http://web.archive.org/web/20020222...post.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5427-2002Feb13.html

US reverse their Arms sales policy to Pakistan in MARCH 2005

The Bush administration March 25 announced its willingness to sell advanced fighter aircraft to India and Pakistan, reversing 15 years of U.S. policy to deny Islamabad such arms because of its nuclear weapons ambitions. The decision came shortly after Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice visited South Asia in a bid to further cultivate the two countries.
https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2005_05/FighterJets

So Sir there was no 4 years window was available during the time period you have mentioned as in October 2005 Earth Quake hit Pakistan Northern Areas ...

 

[Tiger Awan]

To discount France so easily would be very naive. Out of the western suppliers, France has more credibility than anyone else, without a doubt.

Sir just saying that France has backed out of agreements in past due to US pressure. So the danger remains ...

 

[ziaulislam]

The PAF does, (and rightly so) that's why I brought it up.



To discount France so easily would be very naive. Out of the western suppliers, France has more credibility than anyone else, without a doubt.

well i think thats wrong expectation, relying on others
i thought we learned our lesson in 1971

 

[volatile]

For another thread - but you have raised a very interesting point, how exactly would China and KSA react to a cold start attack on Pakistan.

What i really meant is we shouldn't wait for them to intervene and build our own forces specially aerial force which is going to be decisive in the battle over land and sea but to rule the sky we need to shift our mindset to offense not defense as we will lose (Just like Pakistani cricket) Give them nothing take everything . J31 is possible contender and PAF can introduce it before anyone in Asia

 

[ziaulislam]

What i really meant is we shouldn't wait for them to intervene and build our own forces specially aerial force which is going to be decisive in the battle over land and sea but to rule the sky we need to shift our mindset to offense not defense as we will lose (Just like Pakistani cricket) Give them nothing take everything . J31 is possible contender and PAF can introduce it before anyone in Asia

army has offensive mindset with two strike cores
navy is going for offensive punch of strong sub
its airforce who is lacking the strength to do so

 

[volatile]

army has offensive mindset with two strike cores
navy is going for offensive punch of strong sub
its air force who is lacking the strength to do so

Without Air Force both forces will not survive as we have learn this during operation Zarb Azab . Air force soften up the targets but in order to do that Air force has to first dominate air space over Pakistan as well as some part of India near border .

 

[araz]

1- (in red) could only be termed as stupidity of epic proportions at best and treason at worst. take your pick.
2- (in blue) What will happen if the enemy gets the required numerical/qualitative advantage while we are still waiting for the parity to "happen" in some future date?
3- (in pink) Wise people hope for the best but prepare for the worst, only idiots rely on the first part only and history is full of their stories.

If anyone can't see that Indians are preparing for a decisive/final war with Pakistan, then nobody can help them.

Can any country in their right mind ever think of going against USA? But they still keep investing billions in military research, keep coming up with super advanced weapons despite possessing the worlds largest stockpile of nukes.

Military and weapons are not a medicine to cure conflicts, they are Vaccines to prevent conflicts from happening. It's not that we want to win our wars with weapons, we want them to deter the enemy from even thinking about it.

If you think that the decision to buy the 16s was stupid take it up with the PAF officials.As to the logic of repeat buy I merely pointed out the reasoning behind the repeat buy. Perhaps you are oblivious of the financial difficulties which Our country faces. The sort of decsions you want are on the books but there is no money to back it with. So rather than sitting on your lofty seat and pontificating come out with how you will organize the finances to buy the planes which are needed.
One of the reason why we buy the 16s is the ease in embedding a plane within the established infrastructure. If you think this is treasonous take it up with the Rulers and money managers of our country.
Wiser people than you have prepared and read the scenario much better than you and are aware of our needs. If you think you can do better then come out with solid facts as to how.
Alot of countries buy from the US and for very good reasons. You get the best bang for the buck. We have internet warriors harping on ad nauseum abourt kill switches and how they will cripple the fleet of 16s which PAF has in a war against india. I have alluded at length what the sanctions are going to be and why I feel the kill switches will not be utilized by US in a war against India where the US armoury goes up against the French and the Russians. Do you guys honestly think the US will let go of its biggest advertisement campaign on earth to shoot itself in its own foot.
Has anyone ever considered that the PAF is not aware of these alleged kill switches and might not have taken steps to remedy the cause if any??? I already know you have not alluded to them but the stupidity that you point out of buying repeatedly from them makes me allude to it.
Also while you are at irt ask yourself whom will you buy the next 4.5 generation platform from and how you will pay for it? In our wave of condemnation perhaps the Gurus and their followers would like to point out which 4.5 generation platform is available and at a cost we can afford. Why do the followers of the Sage condemning PAF of treason and criminal negligence not consider the options that we have to hand NOW and then reanalyze the situation and see why PAF sits quietly and waits. What do we wait for ?
There is a lot in her e for you to think about and ponder on. Please contemplate and then formulate a reasonable response and then we can debate further.
regards
A

J11 & J16's are unlicensed copies of the Su-27. Russia, has made it very clear, that these should not be exported, China has agreed, and that is that. China is still reliant on Russia for things like aircraft engines, S400, etc. it will not risk irritating Russia.

Now as you would agree that the PAF has been looking for a long range deep strike aircraft, lets focus on what that could be, and will a new platform come, before the 5th Gen's or not.

Secondly, these new EDA Vipers present a new challenge, to be, or not to be.


Agree on all points, except one. When Pentagon steps in, Congress steps out.

As to the last point it did not do so regarding the decision to finance the 16s sale subsidised with FMF. This is where the problems came in.
The EDA falcos ar e a bonus and a carrot which is dangled in front of us. They are needed but perhaps not as badly as before sothe green rabbit is not biting itas quickly as before. We will go for it but only at the right price( the price being monetary as well as other behind the scene demands). This is where the game is in my humble opinion
A

 

[Khafee]

Never denied the need. The point raised was regarding tbe humility of buying from Israel. Anyways I still think for what it is worth that J10 brings nothing to the table for PAF. IF we are going down the 4.5 genration way then we either need a twin engined heavy aircraft or an interim solution which is probably the reason for PAF going for 2nd hand 16s. The risks are there for all to see however it is a perception of how long the war will last or how good is our capability to maintain our fleet. You may know this that PAF was offered 2nd hand block 32/42 which it refused. I think the problem remains one of fleet maintenance/ usage long enough for victory to become too expensive to the adversary.
My brother was in the civil engg section of UAE armed forces and over a 30 yr period helped design / construct both the M2k and the F16 facilities. There is a squash court in the M2K facility which owes its origins to an argument that he had with the French supervisor. He tells me the UAE armed forces have come a long way from being half baked to a decent air arm and fighter force. I wish our brothers all the best and hope they never have to give an ccount of their skills but if the time comes they do honour to their nation.
Regards

1) Was your brothers last name "Awan"
2) If he was at DMW, ask him who was "Bhagwan"

 

[MastanKhan]

How do we know India can't fight more than 10 days? What guarantees India would stop after 10 days and not finish the problem once and forever (or for a long time)?

Hi,

Pakistanis are assumingof a nuc war with india---. It won't happen---.

Pakistanis---the upper / ruling class is filthy rich---. They won't allow the nuc strike---.

Only saving grace is the conventional strength. Those americans with free no holds barred visas---that is what their job was and is to locate those nuc sites---.

Even after removal of sanctions in 2001, US did not agreed to sales F-16s

in 2002 when Mushraf was visiting USA there were issues which were sorted out later

US reverse their Arms sales policy to Pakistan in MARCH 2005

So Sir there was no 4 years window was available during the time period you have mentioned as in October 2005 Earth Quake hit Pakistan Northern Areas ...

Hi,

M2K and Rafale were readily available---. Rafale should have been the primary choice---.

As for the F16's---if the nation had stood as one and not worried about the islamic brotherhood---or the americans have done the 9 / 11 themselves and focussed on their national goals---F16's would have been sitting on the pakistani tarmac in the first week of Nov / Dec 2001---.

It is pakistan's own failure.

The U S did not have a choice of disagreeing on the issue---. Pakistanis never knew how to ask and what to ask---.

You guys do not know the depth of the deceit in the Paf.

Even General Collin Powell was surprised at the extremely weak demands of the Pakistanis---.

Who gave a fck if americans had sanctions---that was the time to force them OFF---. If the american president can declare war without getting permission from the congress---in his presidential powers---during war---he can do many other things---.