US Senate warns Obama on Rouhani in letter signed by 76 lawmakers

[Desert Fox]

The top levels are content with this version of Pakistan. The change must come from the people, history tells us eventually all people rise against their oppressors. Sooner or later the serfs of Pakistan will say enough is enough. It may never happen in any of our lifetimes... but it will happen eventually. As of today Pakistan is still a oppressive serfdom.

Are you implying a "revolution"???

 

[KingMamba]

Are you implying a "revolution"???

Its the only option left for Pakistan.

 

[Desert Fox]

Its the only option left for Pakistan.

True. A large scale purge of all extremist mentality people.

 

[KingMamba]

True. A large scale purge of all extremist mentality people.

Generals, politicians, Talibanies, mullahs, and the far left fascists need to all be lined up and then promptly shot after their assets are drained and added into the state bank of Pakistan.

 

[Desert Fox]

Generals, politicians, Talibanies, mullahs, and the far left fascists need to all be lined up and then promptly shot after their assets are drained and added into the state bank of Pakistan.

It would be costly though.

Fascist and far left doesn't go together BTW. More like Marxist.

 

[KingMamba]

It would be costly though.

Fascist and far left doesn't go together BTW. More like Marxist.

You mean in monetary or what terms? Oh yeah my bad I meant far right but marxists too although idk if Pakistani has any marxists.

 

[al-Hasani]

USA wasn't always a backer of israel.

The more the clock ticks the more it will become difficult to dislodge israel.



I don't expect the Arabs to go to war with india over Kashmir. That is not what i implied. Kashmir is our struggle.

I was merely pointing out to some of my delusional countrymen that just as Arabs do whats in their interest by forming cordial relations with our enemy india, we too should look after our own national interest, even if it isn't in line with Arab agenda.



I guess it depends on the individual perspective. I personally don't think so. But as i said, i don't really expect Arabs to do much for Kashmir anyway as it holds no significance to Arab affairs like say Syria does. Arabs will naturally feel more empathy and affinity towards Palestine and Syria due to cultural and linguistic similarities than they would to a non-Arab country/people.



india's Muslim population does not exceed that of Pakistan. Would appreciate the source of your claim that indian Muslim population is 200,000,000.

And again, i'm not suggesting that Saudi Arabia severe its strong ties with hindu/pagan india for Pakistan's or Kashmir's sake. I'm merely trying to open the eyes of some of my delusional countrymen that just as everyone, including Arabs look after their own interest, so should we.


No doubt.



I disagree with this here. Ally, how so? Did the United States, a NATO member/ally, form a joint defence cooperation agreement with Russia? Arms limitation treaties are not defence agreements BTW.

Neither does the USA appease the enemy of NATO (its ally countries) by extraditing the enemy nations wanted who they can then use against a NATO country.

Even China, a non-Muslim ally of Pakistan, has not made any such agreements with india.

I really can't find another example of any "ally" doing such.



No problem with Arabs. Just waking up a few delusional countrymen, that's all.

Was USA not always a backer of Israel? How so? Israel was basically founded by the West. To be precise the British which were once the greatest Empire on earth. The Balfour declaration and all that. Since that time, especially after WW2 and the guilt the West suddenly felt towards the Jews the support be it political, military, economically etc. has been constant and unconditional. Let us also not forget about the Jewish lobby in USA or across the world, mainly the West. They yield an enormous influence. Oh, and I am not anti-Jewish. I think that quite a few users can confirm this. The Jewish lobby and its influence in USA is just a fact.

Besides Palestine is not merely a Arab-Israeli struggle. Islam plays an enormous role too if not the biggest one. Without that only we Arabs would care and probably not even all but more the immediate neighboring countries such as Lebanon, Jordan, KSA, Iraq, Syria and Egypt. Rest? Not so much. It would also just be another conflict out of the many.

The Arabs cannot go to war with India because firstly the Arab world does not act as one single political body but is made up of 22 countries with their own interests, problems etc. Some bigger than others. Besides India alone has 3 times as big a population as the Arab world, is an atomic power unlike EVERY SINGLE Arab country and is a emerging world power and one single country/body unlike the Arab world.

The Arab relations with India are purely economical. Nothing else really. Unlike that of Pakistan.

Well from what I am aware of then there have been Arabs fighting in Kashmir. More than any other non-Kashmiri/Pakistani people. I also remember political support, pressure on India and financial support. But Kashmir is located several thousands km away from any Arab country. It's not really in our immediate region.

At the same time Pakistan cannot do more for Palestine than it does and no Arab is bitching about that. Or any other conflict in the Arab world. That goes for all other Muslims. I have no illusion that non-Arabs will help Yemen get rid of the poverty. It's either a job for the Yemenis or their Arab neighbors or Arabs.

Arabs did not stop caring about Bosnia in the 1990's or Chechnya. Both were non-Arabs. You are welcome to do some reading about this.

Which strong KSA ties with India? Care to elaborate?

The population of India is 1.25 BILLION. About 15% are Muslims. That's like 185 million. I rounded it up to 200 million. Pakistan has about 175-180 million Muslims. Very similar numbers.

Elaborate your second last part of your message since I am not sure that I can follow you.

What delusional countrymen?

 

[Pakistanisage]

That is the same time when our "brotherly" countries started exporting their mentality to our region.



There's a lot of Pakistani Shias here in the USA, not one said anything against Pakistan or any other Sunni country, at least not the ones i've met. I wonder what stopped them from talking trash about Sunnis in a non-Muslim secular country?

So we agree that Shias don't bash Sunnis in Public. Yet on Internet I see this venomous campaign to malign KSA which is totally uncalled for. I hate to see Pakistan being pulled in any kind of Proxy wars on behalf of a foreign nation.

 

[Desert Fox]

So we agree that Shias don't bash Sunnis in Public. Yet on Internet I see this venomous campaign to malign KSA which is tatally uncalled for. I hate to see Pakistan be pulled in any kind of Proxy wars on behalf of a foreign nation.

I wouldn't take people who behave in such a manner on the internet seriously. But i would rather have them spew their venom on the internet rather than in real life. We already have enough TTP Taliban and LeJ suicide bombers who would rather blow up innocent Sunni Pakistanis just because they don't two their sectarian, extremist fanatical views. Actions speak louder than words, and those who act are more dangerous than those who bark.

 

[Desert Fox]

You mean in monetary or what terms? Oh yeah my bad I meant far right but marxists too although idk if Pakistani has any marxists.

When i said cost, i meant in more than just monetary. Human cost, infrastructural, etc. We don't need a "revolution", at least not the bloody kinds being witnessed in the ME. We need a revolution of the hearts and minds, a revival of strong Nationalist Sentiments amongst the population. Eventually all of the old guard in the Armed Forces will be replaced with the next generation.

 

[Shapur Zol Aktaf]

The point is that the original Persians were not from the Middle East let alone from the Iranian Plateau but Central Asia/Eurasian Steppe. The Middle East - in ancient times was completely dominated by Semitic people (like it is today) outside of Asia Minor (Anatolia - current day Turkey) and the Iranian Plateau. That region is our ancestral homeland.

I didnt want to go offtopic and I hope my post will not cause that, but I had to mention the following:

Semitic people came from Africa into middle east. They also were not in mesopotamia, Before them there were the Sumerians and before Sumerians there was a period named "Uruk period" and "Ubaid period".

 

[Desert Fox]

Was USA not always a backer of Israel? How so? Israel was basically founded by the West. To be precise the British which were once the greatest Empire on earth. The Balfour declaration and all that. Since that time, especially after WW2 and the guilt the West suddenly felt towards the Jews the support be it political, military, economically etc. has been constant and unconditional. Let us also not forget about the Jewish lobby in USA or across the world, mainly the West. They yield an enormous influence. Oh, and I am not anti-Jewish. I think that quite a few users can confirm this. The Jewish lobby and its influence in USA is just a fact.

Not really. The foundations of israel were laid by none other than the Arabs actually.

Coming to the US, its support to israel was rather miniscule and only increased drastically in the 1960-1970's. Before that Britain and France provided much of the diplomatic and military support to israel, however after WW2 these two countries could barely be considered "super powers".

And no, it does not make you anti-semetic/Jewish for having stated a obvious fact.

Besides Palestine is not merely a Arab-Israeli struggle. Islam plays an enormous role too if not the biggest one. Without that only we Arabs would care and probably not even all but more the immediate neighboring countries such as Lebanon, Jordan, KSA, Iraq, Syria and Egypt. Rest? Not so much. It would also just be another conflict out of the many.

Islam plays an enormous role in every conflict involving Muslims, not just Palestine. But that is the card that a lot of Arabs use: "Oh, but the third holiest Islamic site is in Palestine". In an attempt to make Palestine-israel conflict more Islamic then than rest.

The Arabs cannot go to war with India because firstly the Arab world does not act as one single political body but is made up of 22 countries with their own interests, problems etc. Some bigger than others. Besides India alone has 3 times as big a population as the Arab world, is an atomic power unlike EVERY SINGLE Arab country and is a emerging world power and one single country/body unlike the Arab world.

Arabs don't need to go to war with hindu/pagan india for Pakistan or Kashmir and neither did i state/imply that they should. With the current economic prosperity being enjoyed in Arab countries, why would they?

Secondly, military confrontation is not the only way to put pressure on a certain country.

The Arab relations with India are purely economical. Nothing else really. Unlike that of Pakistan.

Arab relations with india are not just economical, there is now also a military dimension to it as has been proven through recent events (i posted the links a few pages back). Arab relations with india are much stronger than Arab relations with Pakistan i'd have to say if one were to take into account the amount of investment Arabs are putting into india and vice versa. Arabs would not risk their indispensable relations with india over Pakistan or Kashmir, i highly doubt.

Arab policy is strictly Iran centric, meaning Arabs want to isolate Iran through any means possible. This includes reducing Iranian oil customers, amongst the largest of which is india. Arabs would not risk pushing india back towards Iranian oil dependence over Pakistan or Kashmir, this is a fact.

Well from what I am aware of then there have been Arabs fighting in Kashmir. More than any other non-Kashmiri/Pakistani people. I also remember political support, pressure on India and financial support. But Kashmir is located several thousands km away from any Arab country. It's not really in our immediate region.

Actually, i believe Afghans were largest non-Pakistani/Kashmiri group to participate in Kashmir. A few Arabs might have been involved, but not on a scale as in Afghanistan during 1980's and not with official Arab gov.t support as was the case in Afghanistan, or Bosnia, and elsewhere.

Also, i am not aware of any significant Arab financial or political pressure on india with regards to the Kashmir conflict.

At the same time Pakistan cannot do more for Palestine than it does and no Arab is bitching about that. Or any other conflict in the Arab world. That goes for all other Muslims. I have no illusion that non-Arabs will help Yemen get rid of the poverty. It's either a job for the Yemenis or their Arab neighbors or Arabs.

Pakistan lacks the political influence and economic capacity to barely help itself, how can it even help Palestine?

Also, Pakistan isn't signing DEFENCE COOPERATION and Trade agreements with Israel. We don't even recognize that country's existence.

Arabs did not stop caring about Bosnia in the 1990's or Chechnya. Both were non-Arabs. You are welcome to do some reading about this.

Arabs didn't have strong economic/military relations with Serbia and Russia either, at least not the GCC countries who funded the weapons for the Bosnian resistance. So they had nothing to lose.

Which strong KSA ties with India? Care to elaborate?

I've posted a few links in my previous posts. There's more that proves my point. A simple comparison of Saudi relations with the two countries can prove my point.

The population of India is 1.25 BILLION. About 15% are Muslims. That's like 185 million. I rounded it up to 200 million. Pakistan has about 175-180 million Muslims. Very similar numbers.

Different sources state different numbers.

According to the economist, indian Muslim population is 14% (177 million, March, 2013) of the total population of india:

India

While the CIA website states Pakistan's total population is 193 million (July 13 estimate):

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/pk.html

Elaborate your second last part of your message since I am not sure that I can follow you.

What delusional countrymen?

I think its pretty obvious who i'm talkking about.

The ones who try to be more Arab than the Arabs and put Arab interests before those of Pakistan.

 

[Doritos11]

Pakistanage, can you tell me the name of the event when Saudis fought for Pakistan

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

True. Non-Muslim countries tend to be more reliable partners than so called "brotherly" nations. However, fixing our current image would assist in building a good reputation abroad. We should also open up cultural centers in Non-Muslim countries to present a good image of Pakistan. We have a rich history and unique culture, why not use it to our advantage?

Yeah, we have a lot of work ahead of us if we want to fix our reputation abroad, particularly in the UK & Greece. I would also suggest that our government encourage foreign governments to avoid being politically correct when dealing with Pakistani immigrants that cause trouble. That would at least convey the message that we are ashamed of those that cause trouble abroad.

I agree, we do need to do more to present our culture & history to the world. Before that though, we need to establish when our history actually begins. Because many Pakistanis think our history begins in the era Muhammad bin Qasim conquered Sindh, & the Harappans were just a bunch of infidels that will burn in hell for eternity. Our culture is predominantly Indo-Aryan/Iranian, yet nobody knows who the Vedic Aryans were. I have even heard ridiculous claims like Balochis descend from Syrians, & the Kashmiris & Pashtuns descend from or are mixed with the lost tribes of Israel. Both those claims are invalidated by genetic, linguistic, cultural, & historical evidence. This implies that we have to educate children to be proud of both their pre-Islamic & Islamic past like any other sensible people, & to avoid dividing the world on the basis of religion.

Apart from that, I think our culture, music, dramas, et cetera are still pretty darn good. Compared to many other cultures, we still retain certain good or traditional values that could end up being a positive influence on others to an extent. For instance, many Pakistani television shows are still clean enough to be watched by the whole family without censorship or a parental advisory.

Brilliantly put!

I never really expected Arabs to do anything in favor of the Kashmir cause. They can't even liberate an inch of Palestine despite there being 400,000,000 of them with all of there resources. In the end we will liberate the rest of Kashmir, just as we have liberated half of it already.

Insha Allah we will, & we shall drink in the gardens of Kashmir when that day comes!

By bringing up Kashmir i just merely wanted to point out their hypocrisy and double standards. They claim to champion the Sunni cause and bash Iran and its "puppet" Assad for massacring Sunnis in Syria but yet have no qualms in making DEFENCE COOPERATION and trade agreements with a Hindu/Pagan/idol worshiping country which has butchered and continues to butcher SUNNI Muslims in Kashmir.

We don't need such "brothers". A enemy is better than such brothers.

I understood your point bro. I think Pakistan's obsession with its religious identity is the reason she gets her heart broken when other Muslims don't support her cause. There is nothing wrong with being proud of Islam, but our primary identity should be based on our magnificent roots. I feel like vomiting whenever I see others regardless of their nationality or race grovel for someone else's love. It's alright to like, respect or consider another nation brotherly, but it's never a good idea to love them.

While Islam is used to gather support from other Muslims in the Palestine versus Israel cause, the fact remains that it is primarily an Arab cause. Since the Palestinians are Arabs, it's only natural for other Arabs to feel remorse over the suffering of their own people & not other people. As I mentioned earlier, some people consider the Kashmir issue a battle for land, & it's difficult to convince them otherwise because many Muslims do kind off live peaceful lives in India. No amount of news or facts regarding the suffering of those in occupied Kashmir can change that. It's just something we have to face on our own.

Also, Pakistan isn't signing DEFENCE COOPERATION and Trade agreements with Israel. We don't even recognize that country's existence.

Speaking of Israel, I am not against recognizing her, because lets face it, ignoring Israel's existence doesn't really cause it to disappear. They do have some good agricultural technology that a country like Pakistan could benefit from, even though that in itself isn't a good reason to recognize them. However, if we were to ever recognize them, I would advise dealing with them very cautiously. One of my Maldivian friends told me that after Maldives established diplomatic relations with them, the Israelis asked their government to add a chapter regarding the holocaust in their schools' history textbooks. There is absolutely nothing wrong with studying the holocaust, but we both know that the reason they asked for that particular subject to be included isn't for the sake of improving pupils' knowledge of history.

They will leave no opportunity to gain sympathy from the world by presenting themselves as angels surrounded by demonic Gentiles. They love gaining influence in whichever society they reside in or interact with, & if Pakistan was to ever concede to such a demand; I would suggest adding a few verses from the Pentateuch too. The verses I am referring to are the ones in which the God of Israel sets the rules for His relationship with them. The rules were pretty simple; honor the covenant & Israel will be blessed, dishonor it & Israel will get fuked. The point is that if we were to allow them to let's say invest in our media after establishing diplomatic relations, the government is going to have to monitor every message they use it to promote, & ensure that the message doesn't lead to degeneracy. I just don't think our government can handle that.

 

[Kompromat]

Say Pakistan got in war with Iran, a dream for many Arabs. How many Arab countries would send their state armies to help and spill blood ? none. They will however throw some oil money around.

We are not getting into war with anyone except India. What you have implied is way too hypothetical for being true, as we have a very close working relationship with the Iranians, in the areas of trade, economics, cultural exchanges and counter terrorism.

For the protection of Pakistan? My friend a lot of your countrymen and other Arabs spilled blood for our clandestine war against Soviet Union. Not just, that Egypt was the 2nd largest source of Arms supply to the Mujahideen.