US-origin M777 howitzers to add fire power to Indian Army

[jhungary]

M777 has been acquired for the Strike Force. Strike Force is that unit of the IA which will go on the offensive and attack the enemy and take the war into their territory.

For that Bofors' cannot be used since it cannot be airlifted into Tibet. M-777 has been designed and built precisely for this purpose and its proven in battle.

I am going by published figures.

In Kargil FH77 regularly fired ERFB ammo over 35 km. But official range is still 24 km.

Published Figure for M777 is 40+ Km on base bleed round.

The Canadian have a requirement on L/39 Gun on the M777, they require them to hit 40K minimum range....You can go search the Canadian selection on M777.

 

[kakathiya]

Titanium is not a bullion metal. Did you confuse it for Platinum?

i know the difference, i was just stating that IA cannot abandon them in case of emergency as they are expensive, IA should have to safeguard them with lot of men

 

[uparyupari]

Titanium is not a bullion metal. Did you confuse it for Platinum?

Titanium is almost as expensive as Gold.

Published Figure for M777 is 40+ Km on base bleed round.

The Canadian have a requirement on L/39 Gun on the M777, they require them to hit 40K minimum range....You can go search the Canadian selection on M777.

M777 howitzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the current IA requirement for 155mm Guns.

 

[jhungary]

Titanium is almost as expensive as Gold.



M777 howitzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the current IA requirement for 155mm Guns.

Dude..........It said so on the that Wikipedia Page for the Excalibur is 40km

Effective firing range M107: 24 km (14.9 mi)
ERFB: 30km (18.6 mi) base bleed
Excalibur: 40km (25 mi)

M777 howitzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On this Department of Defence Document, it said the Effective range for M982 on L/39 Gun would be 40 Km and 50 Km @ 50 Cal

Characteristics / Description:
•Precision Guided, Extended Range Carrier for a Family of 155mm Cannon Ammunition
•Optimal Terminal Trajectory for Urban/Complex Terrain (Near Vertical Angle of Fall)
• Fin Stabilized Glide Air Frame
• All Weather, Day/Night, Fire & Forget
• 4-Axis Canard Actuation System for Maneuverability
• One Meter Length / 106 pounds
• Objective Maximum Range: 40km (39cal), 50km (50cal)

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2012annual_psr/Milner.pdf - Page 3

Why are you arguing with me lol

 

[uparyupari]

Dude..........It said so on the that Wikipedia Page for the Excalibur is 40km

M777 howitzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On this Department of Defence Document, it said the Effective range for M982 on L/39 Gun would be 40 Km and 50 Km @ 50 Cal

I though ERFB and Base bleed is the same. What is the difference ?

 

[Transhumanist]

I though ERFB and Base bleed is the same. What is the difference ?

ERFB:

The extended range, full bore concept reverses the normal rifling idea by using a projectile with small fins that ride in the grooves, as opposed to using a slightly oversized projectile which is forced into the grooves.

Notice the small spine on either side of the shell? Those are principle to the ERFB concept.

Base Bleed:

Base bleed is one way to reduce this drag without extending the base of the shell. Instead, a small ring of metal extends just past the base, and the area in the rear of the shell is filled with a small gas generator. The gas generator provides little to no thrust, but simply fills the vacuum behind the shell with pressure, dramatically reducing the drag. The only downsides are a small loss of accuracy due to the somewhat more turbulent airflow, and a small loss in explosive payload due to some of the space inside the shell being taken up by this thrust mechanism.

An attachable Base Bleed unit. Also, notice the lack of spine on this shell.

Sometimes you'll find a shell that combines the two concepts, the ERFB-BB:

http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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

 

[uparyupari]

ERFB:

The extended range, full bore concept reverses the normal rifling idea by using a projectile with small fins that ride in the grooves, as opposed to using a slightly oversized projectile which is forced into the grooves.

Notice the small spine on either side of the shell? Those are principle to the ERFB concept.

Base Bleed:

Base bleed is one way to reduce this drag without extending the base of the shell. Instead, a small ring of metal extends just past the base, and the area in the rear of the shell is filled with a small gas generator. The gas generator provides little to no thrust, but simply fills the vacuum behind the shell with pressure, dramatically reducing the drag. The only downsides are a small loss of accuracy due to the somewhat more turbulent airflow, and a small loss in explosive payload due to some of the space inside the shell being taken up by this thrust mechanism.

An attachable Base Bleed unit. Also, notice the lack of spine on this shell.

Sometimes you'll find a shell that combines the two concepts, the ERFB-BB:

http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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

So ERFB has fins that help glide the ordinance towards the enemy thereby increasing the Range.

So its all about the Ammunition, nothing to do with the Gun itself.

 

[Manindra]

But we have just one! The other two have been cannibalized for spare parts!! So this capability is of no use to man or beast!

We need to buy some for our strategic lift capability.

 

[uparyupari]

This is the ERFB India produce with a range of 38 km.

 

[Manindra]

Please, the Kalyani group has ZERO experience in this area, they were at least a decade (probably more0 from having a product ready to go into service. Considering the IA has already wasted 30 years with zero arty inductions, do you want them to wait yet longer?


The M777 deal is a bloody god send to the IA and its MSC.


It sure is but it has its place and the M777 has its.




The Mi-26s will be out of service within 4 years.





The IAF selected the CH-47F over the Mi-26, end of story.

At present the IAF has,perhaps, 1 Mi-26 in a fly-worthy condition at any given time.


The Mi-26 is unable to operate from the forward positions of the IA (too damn big, its massive downwash is bloody dangerous for a lot of these locations), is a pain in the backside to keep airworthy (Boeing will guarantee an availability rate in excess of 90% for the Chinooks, the Mi-26-T2 would be lucky to get 60%) and has a limited military role.


It is like the argument of the AN-124 vs the C-17. One can lift more but is a hanger queen and expensive to operate, the other carries relatively less cargo but can be operated from nearly anywhere, is a dream to fly and keep airworthy and is far more suited to military operations.

MI 26 is not need 90 % of availibility, even if give 50 % then its very good because it provide us vital strategic lift .
It brings heavy construction equipment, armour or other heavy gears which nobody can deliver including CH-47 Chinook.

 

[Transhumanist]

So ERFB has fins that help glide the ordinance towards the enemy thereby increasing the Range.

So its all about the Ammunition, nothing to do with the Gun itself.

Barrel length and caliber are important too. The larger the caliber, the larger the power charge, and thus the more explosive power that is propelling the shell. Longer barrels retain gas for a greater duration, thus extending the speed at which the shell is propelled (to a point, longer doesn't always mean greater performance). If ammunition was all that mattered, the M777 and the HARP would be similar - they aren't.

M777:

Range - about 40 Km using Excalibur

HARP:

range - well, I'll let this tell the story:

The project was based on a flight range of the Seawell Airport in Barbados, from which shells were fired eastward toward the Atlantic Ocean using an old U.S. Navy 16-inch (410 mm), 50 caliber gun (20 m); it was later extended to 100 caliber (40 m). In 1966 the project installed its third and final 16-inch gun at a new test site in Yuma, Arizona. On November 18, 1966 the Yuma gun fired a 180 kg Martlet 2 projectile at 3,600 m/s (12,000 ft/s) sending it into space briefly and setting an altitude record of 180 km (590,000 ft; 110 mi); that world record still stands as of 2015.

Barrel length and caliber matter to, but so does the type of shell and the quality of the gun's manufacturing and powder charges.

This is the ERFB India produce with a range of 38 km.

Spines and base-bleeder, it looks to be an ERFB-BB - good range too:

PERFORMANCE

Maximum Range 38.4 Km
Maximum Chamber Pressure
345 ± 8 Mpa

Storage Temp.
210C ± 20C

Operating Temp. - 200C to 600C
Shelf Life 10 years

Ordnance Factory Board

 

[uparyupari]

Barrel length and caliber are important too. The larger the caliber, the larger the power charge, and thus the more explosive power is propelling a shell. Longer barrels retain gas for a greater duration, thus extending the speed at which the shell is propelled. If ammunition was all that mattered, the M777 and the HARP would be similar - they aren't.

M777:

Range - about 40 Km using Xcalibure

HARP:

range - well, I'll let this tell the story:

The project was based on a flight range of the Seawell Airport in Barbados, from which shells were fired eastward toward the Atlantic Ocean using an old U.S. Navy 16-inch (410 mm), 50 caliber gun (20 m); it was later extended to 100 caliber (40 m). In 1966 the project installed its third and final 16-inch gun at a new test site in Yuma, Arizona. On November 18, 1966 the Yuma gun fired a 180 kg Martlet 2 projectile at 3,600 m/s (12,000 ft/s) sending it into space briefly and setting an altitude record of 180 km (590,000 ft; 110 mi); that world record still stands as of 2015.

Barrel length and caliber matter to, but so does the type of shell and the quality of the gun's manufacturing and power charges.



Spines and base-bleeder, it looks to be an ERFB-BB - good range too:

PERFORMANCE

Maximum Range 38.4 Km
Maximum Chamber Pressure
345 ± 8 Mpa

Storage Temp.
210C ± 20C

Operating Temp. - 200C to 600C
Shelf Life 10 years

Ordnance Factory Board

M-777 has range of 40 km using ordinance like Excalibur.

Dhanush which is the Indian version of HF77 gives a range of 38 km using regular ERFB-BB.

With specialized ammunition like Excalibur, the range would be around 50 km. Assuming a standard 30% increase in range.

Which was my point all along.

 

[Zarvan]

Well I am having a feeling Pakistan got these quietly from USA from what they used in Afghanistan there were rumours of Pakistan getting M777 and MRLs

 

[Transhumanist]

Well I am having a feeling Pakistan got these quietly from USA from what they used in Afghanistan there were rumours of Pakistan getting M777 and MRLs

The M270 rumor dates back to before 2013 - any movement or just rumors still? It's been rumored that Jordan would act as a conduit and funnel US heavy weapons to Pakistan.

US Pakistan Arms Deal

I've seen no such M777 rumor and nothing to substantiate the M270 one either. Unless you have more up-to-date info?

 

[uparyupari]

I did some digging and It appears ordinance that uses fins to increase sacrifices accuracy for Range. So its useful for saturation bombing, not targeted attack which India would need.

Excalibur needs a GPS to bring back its accuracy to acceptable levels and even improve it considerably.

That makes the ammunition ridiculously expensive. (for India)