US Def Sec Ashton Carter Witnesses India's Pakistan Obsession in Delhi

[Stephen Cohen]

I agree that people to people contact will be the game changer in the India-Pak quagmire.

What has India NOT tried in the last SEVENTEEN years

Why dont you see India's efforts starting from 1999 Lahore Bus trip by Vajpayee

to 2015 Modi 's trip to Lahore and SEE the Response

In 1999 we got Kargil and in 2016 we got Pathankot ( within ONE WEEK )

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

US Diplomats have mentioned this even in wikileaks

However, if we look at history of India's stance towards Pakistan it has been the complete opposite.

India's stance with regard to Pakistan has always been reactive rather than being calculated or strategic with the exception of 1971.

This is hangover from Nehruvian policy towards Pakistan. Nehru contemptuously believed Pakistan as a nation will not survive long enough.

And hence began our policy of being reactive to any action of Pakistan and merely seek status quo.

1971 is rare instance where Indian leadership was convinced of not choosing status quo as means to achieve our goals in regard to Pakistan. The only instance where one can say we were obsessed with Pakistan.

 

[Peshwa]

What has India NOT tried in the last SEVENTEEN years

Why dont you see India's efforts starting from 1999 Lahore Bus trip by Vajpayee

to 2015 Modi 's trip to Lahore and SEE the Response

In 1999 we got Kargil and in 2016 we got Pathankot ( within ONE WEEK )

I think you missed my point Broheim..

I'm not saying this is anyone's fault and nothing that India and Pakistan can do to increase people to people contact (unless visa free travel is allowed in both countries which is a long shot)..but the unwarranted hate we see on PDF is just a PDF phenomenon and those hating have hardly to never met anyone accross from their border...because in neutral settings, Indians and Pakistanis get along better than fine.

Lastly, dignitaries and heads of state making official visit does not count as people to people contact.
Only when we from either side meet and interact with each other meaningfully( as we do abroad) will perceptions change and call to end hostilities have an organic root.

 

[xyxmt]

Our concern is with our own security...if that means we are obsessive in eliminating threats, so be it!
I'd rather be obsessive than allow another 26/11 or kargil to take place in the future.

I mean the US implemented the patriot act post 9/11 and spied on every one of its allies in its obsession with its own security...what makes us so different?!
India is but a much less resourced and less powerful nation compared to the US...while dealing with a known troublemaker...we need to be exponentially more careful and alert in addressing our security.
If anything, this news makes me happy..
..

Its funny actually, one throws rocks on his neighbor's house then start fortifying his house to protect from stones. bharat mata ki logic nirally

 

[RiazHaq]

Strangely he doesnt mention Radcliffe line but durand line. why? @RiazHaq

Jaswant Singh does refer to India's territorial disputes with neighbors when he talks about India's still "unsettled borders" after 69 years of independence.

 

[wiseone2]

We are not even near to that level what you guys are at.....8 F16s and elephant starts shouting. What you said in your first post is exactly what India's policy is. We know that. India wants to compete with China alone, may be even if Pakistan wasn't hostile towards India, still India would have want to go for competition with China alone as you guys want whole world's attention towards you, like, a country, having democracy competing/fighting/resisting China and force to reckon with. Thats why you are hell bent on taking Pakistan out of the equation some how...but alas Pakistan spoils the game of India, as usual.

If Pakistan wasn't there, how easy would be for US and west to contain China with the help of India. Again, Pakistan spoils the game...Big time !!! China is going towards Gwadar, Pakistan is going for economic glory it once had and India is going nowhere....

All dressed up but nowhere to go...........This one suits India well....

No offence !!!

to say Americans cannot prop up India's economy is understatement of the century

US Diplomats have mentioned this even in wikileaks

However, if we look at history of India's stance towards Pakistan it has been the complete opposite.

India's stance with regard to Pakistan has always been reactive rather than being calculated or strategic with the exception of 1971.

This is hangover from Nehruvian policy towards Pakistan. Nehru contemptuously believed Pakistan as a nation will not survive long enough.

And hence began our policy of being reactive to any action of Pakistan and merely seek status quo.

1971 is rare instance where Indian leadership was convinced of not choosing status quo as means to achieve our goals in regard to Pakistan. The only instance where one can say we were obsessed with Pakistan.

1971 was a no-brainer. if indian leadership was aggressive they would have Mukti bahini conquer West pakistan.

Indian Media is the biggest hurdle in normal relation's between two countries.. it is a medium which build's the mind of general public and opinion's.. and to be honest the Indian press feed their people with hatred against Pakistan..

I am sure Pakistan is an innocent bystander with respect to Kargil, attack on Indian parliament and Mumbai attacks

I am seen Pakistani writers complain again and again that Pakistan would be fine if they could somehow fix Pakistan's image. What they do not realize is that PR/media efforts reflect underlying reality.

 

[shree835]

@Spring Onion @Horus @Imran Khan @Oscar @SpArK

Please make a note member @RiazHaq is breaking forum rule...

Just by change original headline ...Putting news from other blog.

Please let me know if this fine from your end.

Thanks,
-Shree

 

[Bad Guy]

Pakistanis take it on themselves as
Indian Obsession. It's India's policy to
make sure whose ally is US.
Case of US, China or India, highly
populated countries so large
economies, resulting more investment in
technical development, higher defense
budgets and so strong influence.
Russia has technology, China has
economic power, both came together
for mutual interests.
China can further develop more
advance things by performing R&D on
Russian Weapons.
US falls short of population, so when
China turns itself in a high income
economy, US will be in trouble. So,
decided tackle with help of a partner.
India falls short of economy and will
take at least 2-3 decades to catch up in
league US, China or Russia. But India
really wants to catch up, it needs
security and maintain growth. So, it
decided to play as a swinger.
Interests of both lied in common. So,
decided to come together.
Things go critical in Indo US ties is in
"foundational agreements" demanded by
US to make India permanent ally of
NATO.
LEMoA
CISOMA
BECA
Though the reactions from Indian
Politics are childish statements, it won't
affect sovereignty as we're getting
equal access to US equipment, but
stationing US weapons in our bases is
obviously a security threat.
LEMoA and CISOMA may be signed but
BECA is rare.
That'll also be interesting to see how
US and India behave with each other
after India matches where it wanna be.
Or switches between the path.
Currently, India is seeking for somehow
ToT, to attain capability of making basic
military equipment and further master
tech to make it's own akin to China
model.
US has no problem but never supports
India over development of powerful
strategic weapons like SLBMs etc. and
expresses concerns. Let's see what
would be their reaction on Indian
Hypersonic vehicle test or Agni-6 etc..
Coming 15-20 years will also see
changes in developing nations.
Russia (almost turned) and China will
turn in developed countries, India will
get in"highly developed" and an upper
middle income country( somewhere,
where Brazil or China are counted
today).
Our Pakistani friends will also become
more important us given their strategic
position, location between oil and gas
giants and two largest potential
consumers. Pakistan will come in G20
too in a period of time.
Hope we resolve our all issues.
Coming 50 years gonna be quite
interesting for world order,
1. Rise of China as the superior force
followed by US, India or India US.
2. Emergence of more great and
regional powers like Brazil, Indonesia
and Nigeria etc.
3. Decline of Russian power and
hegemony due to weakness of
economic nerve.
4. A technologically more advanced
Japan but still dependent on foreign
countries for security.
Scenario will be more tense because
even today more and more countries
are involving in regional disputes.
Too many of them possess either
nuclear weapon or are nuclear threshold
States.
For nature,China, US, India, Japan etc.
will be producing most of energy from
non conventional
World will be a better place for living
but sitting on a bigger heap of gun
powder.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Jaswant Singh does refer to India's territorial disputes with neighbors when he talks about India's still "unsettled borders" after 69 years of independence.

yeah but why durand line, why not redcliff line? i still fail to comprehend that. Or that guy is another hindu fanatic who dreams of Akhand Bharat.

 

[somebozo]

Sooner or later US will get sick of India...US has no replacement against Pakistan and Saudi Arabia...both are bitter truth allies..

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

How exactly has Pakistan spoiled India's game?
What damage has Pakistan done to India except being an irritant?

You know it well, don't you? Pakistan has spoiled India's credibility regarding terrorism. World is seeing and hearing what your monkeys do in Pakistan. Jhadev bhai ne humey sab batadiya hai aur ab hum wo dunya ko bata rahey hain.

From now, Jhadev will ride Pakistan-India relations. You shouldn't have had sent your naval officer for terrorist activities in Pakistan. I feel sorry for Indian navy.

@RiazHaq
We are enemies ; everything is fair in war

Don't you feel any sympathy for your soldiers? Ap tou laroge nahi.......marenge ap k ghareeb soldiers, wo bichare pehle se hi suicide kar rahe hain.........Don't use soldiers as tissue paper....I know India has a lot men but still it is not justified.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ears-government-says/articleshow/38873826.cms

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

But I guess Pakistan gets bad media coverage or indians are better at propaganda.

I can't agree with you more. Indian are master in propaganda. They have polluted every forum with their anti Pakistan feelings. They write intentionally so that foreigners like you fall under it and start thinking about Pakistan as a dangerous terror state. Which is not true. Lets see a bigger picture. Indians officially attacked East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) in 1971 and helped them become independent, resulting in Pakistan's division. They supported Tamil tigers (separation force) in Sri Lanka in 1980s which caused too much bloodshed and destruction in that island country, however insurgency got overcome by Sri Lankans with the help of Pakistan and they are still grateful to us. Now regarding China, Indians attacked China in 1962 and get defeated by China. They interfere in Bangladesh's politics, many people in BD, some of Bengalis on this forum, don't like it at all and criticize it. Regarding Nepal, India has just recently did such horrible blockade that even Nepalese infants, along with families, went into trouble given all supplies in that poor Nepal come from India, the reason of blockade was Nepal's constitution, India wanted Nepal to make its constitution suitable with India's demands but Nepal rejected, so hence faced terrible blockade.

I mean, Indians have irked and inflicted pain on each and every country in their neighborhood. The only neighboring countries of India that can give India a dose of its own medicine are Pakistan and China. Rest of them are too small and lack will, geography and manpower. Hence, you see how Indians make their frustration and anger lose on Chinese in general and on Pakistanis in particular. It is India who forced Pakistan to go nuclear, Indian nuke tests forced Pakistan to do the same to maintain strategic balance in region.

We are 3-5 times smaller nation than India still we act more mature, individually and collectively than Indians.

Hope you're not get tired or bored after reading such long post.

to say Americans cannot prop up India's economy is understatement of the century

Where did i mention in my post Americans can't prop up or help Indians economically? what did you perceived from post?

 

[risingsinga]

I can't agree with you more. Indian are master in propaganda. They have polluted every forum with their anti Pakistan feelings. They write intentionally so that foreigners like you fall under it and start thinking about Pakistan as a dangerous terror state. Which is not true. Lets see a bigger picture. Indians officially attacked East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) in 1971 and helped them become independent, resulting in Pakistan's division. They supported Tamil tigers (separation force) in Sri Lanka in 1980s which caused too much bloodshed and destruction in that island country, however insurgency got overcome by Sri Lankans with the help of Pakistan and they are still grateful to us. Now regarding China, Indians attacked China in 1962 and get defeated by China. They interfere in Bangladesh's politics, many people in BD, some of Bengalis on this forum, don't like it at all and criticize it. Regarding Nepal, India has just recently did such horrible blockade that even Nepalese infants, along with families, went into trouble given all supplies in that poor Nepal come from India, the reason of blockade was Nepal's constitution, India wanted Nepal to make its constitution suitable with India's demands but Nepal rejected, so hence faced terrible blockade.

I mean, Indians have irked and inflicted pain on each and every country in their neighborhood. The only neighboring countries of India that can give India a dose of its own medicine are Pakistan and China. Rest of them are too small and lack will, geography and manpower. Hence, you see how Indians make their frustration and anger lose on Chinese in general and on Pakistanis in particular. It is India who forced Pakistan to go nuclear, Indian nuke tests forced Pakistan to do the same to maintain strategic balance in region.

We are 3-5 times smaller nation than India still we act more mature, individually and collectively than Indians.

Hope you're not get tired or bored after reading such long post.

I appreciate your response because it echoes with my experience. As a Singaporean, I'm neutral and did not know about Pakistan before my entry to NUS where I met a lot Indian friends and through them I got know about Pakistan and over like 6 months unconsciously, I developed the feeling that Pakistanis very extremely religious people who are trouble makers for the region and even for much bigger india...they told me incident after incident and showed me international news reports. But a year ago two Pakistani students came to live in the same corridor as mine, initially I was not so open towards them and avoided them but I saw they were gentle and fun-loving people and passionate about studies and fun. When I started questioning them I got some clarifications and got some sort of similar picture as you portrayed. But they only talked about India when asked otherwise their talk was focussed on studies and fun and cricket (which I learned to play with my Indian friends) and yeah I came to know a lot about Pakistani culture and internal politics and how politicians corrupted your economy and system.

But despite what Indians do, I think there are some lack of will or something missing on Pakistan's part that you are not able to present at governmental level. I'm lucky that I got nice Pakistani friends but it is not the case with everyone and thus people rely on media and not many are bothered to do research on foreign affairs and think what the mass media saying is true.
I will visit Pakistan at end of this year as one of my friends is getting married

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

I appreciate your response because it echoes with my experience. As a Singaporean, I'm neutral and did not know about Pakistan before my entry to NUS where I met a lot Indian friends and through them I got know about Pakistan and over like 6 months unconsciously, I developed the feeling that Pakistanis very extremely religious people who are trouble makers for the region and even for much bigger india...they told me incident after incident and showed me international news reports. But a year ago two Pakistani students came to live in the same corridor as mine, initially I was not so open towards them and avoided them but I saw they were gentle and fun-loving people and passionate about studies and fun. When I started questioning them I got some clarifications and got some sort of similar picture as you portrayed. But they only talked about India when asked otherwise their talk was focussed on studies and fun and cricket (which I learned to play with my Indian friends) and yeah I came to know a lot about Pakistani culture and internal politics and how politicians corrupted your economy and system.

But despite what Indians do, I think there are some lack of will or something missing on Pakistan's part that you are not able to present at governmental level. I'm lucky that I got nice Pakistani friends but it is not the case with everyone and thus people rely on media and not many are bothered to do research on foreign affairs and think what the mass media saying is true.
I will visit Pakistan at end of this year as one of my friends is getting married

Hmm. I know there are a lot of Indians in Singapore so how can it be possible that they don't corrupt local minds regarding Pakistan. I won't blame you for your initial feelings, in fact, i and other Pakistanis will respect you that at least you bothered to check out the other side of coin.

So you're visiting Pakistan for wedding...congratulations/greetings to you and your friend. I hope you'll enjoy your stay in Pakistan. If possible, try to explore Pakistan as much as possible, especially northern areas ( Gilgit Baltistan and other valleys) and also cities like Karachi, Islamabad etc. You'll love it. I promise. We have a lot of history, culture and traditions as we have been at the crossroads of different civilizations.

Check out one of my favorite video about my city Karachi.......

 

[EAK]

to say Americans cannot prop up India's economy is understatement of the century



1971 was a no-brainer. if indian leadership was aggressive they would have Mukti bahini conquer West pakistan.



I am sure Pakistan is an innocent bystander with respect to Kargil, attack on Indian parliament and Mumbai attacks

I am seen Pakistani writers complain again and again that Pakistan would be fine if they could somehow fix Pakistan's image. What they do not realize is that PR/media efforts reflect underlying reality.

Well that's exactly what i mean and you proved my point...

Kargil ; Do you know what happened in siachin ..it's the same case but media fed you establishment story
Indian Parliament and mumbai ; how many people have died max 300 ..Pakistan lost 40000+ to stooges like yadav and their institutions funded terrorists.. in response you guys ignore these reality in media and talk about snakes biting back.. well then when they bit back US some years back then where were your media why it couldn't say that snakes they funded and given weapons are biting back..

My point was media is a tool which makes up peoples mind .. it has to show the positive rather then negativity all the time..and your media has to get out of establishment control to perform that role..