US committed to boosting Pakistan’s precision strike capability, Congress told

[Basel]

Why PAF not pushing AIM-9X block-2 missiles in this deal?? Those missiles can be received in disguise of WoT because they can hit ground targets too, which will enhance PAF capabilities. @Windjammer @waz @Horus

Quote:

Raytheon’s AIM-9X Block II would have made Top Gun a very short movie. It’s the USA’s most advanced short range air-air missile, capable of using its datalink, thrust vectoring maneuverability, and advanced imaging infrared seeker to hit targets behind the launching fighter. Unlike previous AIM-9 models, the AIM-9X can even be used against targets on the ground.

These changes will help keep it competitive against foreign missiles like MBDA UK’s AIM-132 ASRAAM, RAFAEL of Israel’s Python 5, the multinational German-led IRIS-T, and Russia’s R73/ AA-11 Archer. So far, only American fighter types can use AIM-9X missiles, but that hasn’t stopped a slew of export requests and sales, especially in the Middle East.

Unquote:

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/aim-9x-block-ii-the-new-sidewinder-missile-011572/

 

[LeGenD]

Please stop worshiping F-16 like a God .. there wont be a bit of concern for your enemy that is India .. they have 250+ Su-30mki , and all set to buy 36 Rafale that outmatched your entire fleet .. 8 F-shola will do nothing ..
and as for my concern, they are not my concern its i know what will happen .. mark my words, US is waiting for ISIS to set ground in Afghanistan , once they let ISIS take over, they will leave the region , leaving Pakistan with all three Terrorist Organization to deal with .. they are asking us to Target Afghan Taliban and make enemies with them, once ISIS and TTP join hands, we will have massive Insurgency at our door steps ..
Every country look for its national interest except for Pakistan .. we praise our Army and ISI , and yet they are slowly Poisoning the roots of Pakistan .

India is a trillion dollar economy. We, honestly, cannot keep up with Indian arms procurement with our current economic situation.

Regarding War on Terror:-

US have killed a large number of terrorists inside Pakistan in a span of years. Several prominent TTP leaders were among them (including the feared Baitullah Mehsud). US killed these prominent TTP leaders to make it easier for Pakistani military forces to accomplish their objectives in the affected regions inside Pakistan.

Problem is that Afghanistan is a messed-up nation. Afghan tribes seldom get along with each other and this is why Afghanistan remains a lost cause. Just recently, a Tribal leader punched another Tribal leader in front of the current Afghan President. Go figure.

Still, we hope that US will not leave Afghanistan and deny ISIS a foothold in the region.

 

[Quwa]

How can you state this ignoring the respective roles of both in PAF. JF-17 is not hi-end of PAF it is ought to be the mainstay of PAF. On the other hand, J-10 was offered in that capacity i.e. high end fighter to pair with F-16 Block52.... PAF was not satisfied with it being it high end fighter of PAF. Rest assure, the long line of Flankers in PLAAF gives one pretty good idea what they are preparing for countering American planes.

After Block-3, there would be v small gap of capabilities between the two so PAF's quest for high-end aircraft continues.

With Block-III (and IV/V/etc) we would have to adjust what we mean by "high-end". It is possible (if not likely) that some future JF-17 variant (possibly Block-III, likely later block) will incorporate all the following: AESA, IRST, HMD/S, composites, new RD-93 variant (more comparable to GE F414), HOBS AAM, etc all in one fighter. "High-end" in this context means having platforms that offer substantial capability leaps, i.e. 5th gen fighters for strike (FC-31) and markedly more capable 4.5+ gen to fill in key gaps. The latter is where the PAF's reported interest in Su-35 comes in.

they will probably want some more missiles/bombs too

Here's hoping they grab AIM-9X, SDB, JDAM-ER and JSOW, and when available, JAGM

Why PAF not pushing AIM-9X block-2 missiles in this deal?? Those missiles can be received in disguise of WoT because they can hit ground targets too, which will enhance PAF capabilities. @Windjammer @waz @Horus

Quote:

Raytheon’s AIM-9X Block II would have made Top Gun a very short movie. It’s the USA’s most advanced short range air-air missile, capable of using its datalink, thrust vectoring maneuverability, and advanced imaging infrared seeker to hit targets behind the launching fighter. Unlike previous AIM-9 models, the AIM-9X can even be used against targets on the ground.

These changes will help keep it competitive against foreign missiles like MBDA UK’s AIM-132 ASRAAM, RAFAEL of Israel’s Python 5, the multinational German-led IRIS-T, and Russia’s R73/ AA-11 Archer. So far, only American fighter types can use AIM-9X missiles, but that hasn’t stopped a slew of export requests and sales, especially in the Middle East.

Unquote:

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/aim-9x-block-ii-the-new-sidewinder-missile-011572/

Honestly it won't be long before the JF-17 picks up a 5th gen HOBS AAM. Once that is done, the U.S would have little incentive to block AIM-9X; South Asia will already be flush with HOBS AAM.

 

[LeGenD]

It seems all Republicans are on sale these days, India has bought them, Israel has bought them. Why can't Pakistan buy them and get F-35 instead?

Idea is not bad.

Sir, you should apply for the position of Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Let's target Mr. Trump and Mr. Kerry as well.

Sir ji ...F35 suppose to F16 replacement , but F35 is technology disaster right now. Cost of production is smoothly climbing. And F16 is keep on modifying and still low cost moderate dominating aircraft in the market.

F-35 is not a disaster but a major leap in capability from the F-16 platform. Don't let critics fool you, do your own research.

 

[Piper]

With Block-III (and IV/V/etc) we would have to adjust what we mean by "high-end". It is possible (if not likely) that some future JF-17 variant (possibly Block-III, likely later block) will incorporate all the following: AESA, IRST, HMD/S, composites, new RD-93 variant (more comparable to GE F414), HOBS AAM, etc all in one fighter. "High-end" in this context means having platforms that offer substantial capability leaps, i.e. 5th gen fighters for strike (FC-31) and markedly more capable 4.5+ gen to fill in key gaps. The latter is where the PAF's reported interest in Su-35 comes in.


Here's hoping they grab AIM-9X, SDB, JDAM-ER and JSOW, and when available, JAGM


Honestly it won't be long before the JF-17 picks up a 5th gen HOBS AAM. Once that is done, the U.S would have little incentive to block AIM-9X; South Asia will already be flush with HOBS AAM.

This would require significant structural alterations specially if the propulsion and radar are changed.

If all the quoted suggestions are incorporated then JF-17 will be a unique value proposition and will give tough competition to F-16 (V or Block 60) and Gripen NG, of-course US would have by then have done away with F16 lines.

However to deal with India conclusively and form a effective conventional deterrent Pakistan ought to procure jets with larger payload and reach so that appropriate mix is achieved. F-16 Block 52 complements JF-17 and subsequent orders are the quickest and most cost effective way to achieve this mix. Buying Flankers or their Chinese alternative is tricky as that would require substantial new investment in setting up support and training infrastructure. US is releasing the top hardware to Saudis for hard cash so I think moving forward as Pakistan's economy improves, even Pakistan would get access to latest avionics and weapon system provided it is able to afford them.

 

[Blue Marlin]

With Block-III (and IV/V/etc) we would have to adjust what we mean by "high-end". It is possible (if not likely) that some future JF-17 variant (possibly Block-III, likely later block) will incorporate all the following: AESA, IRST, HMD/S, composites, new RD-93 variant (more comparable to GE F414), HOBS AAM, etc all in one fighter. "High-end" in this context means having platforms that offer substantial capability leaps, i.e. 5th gen fighters for strike (FC-31) and markedly more capable 4.5+ gen to fill in key gaps. The latter is where the PAF's reported interest in Su-35 comes in.


Here's hoping they grab AIM-9X, SDB, JDAM-ER and JSOW, and when available, JAGM


Honestly it won't be long before the JF-17 picks up a 5th gen HOBS AAM. Once that is done, the U.S would have little incentive to block AIM-9X; South Asia will already be flush with HOBS AAM.

what about aim 120-d's or 120 c7's at least. you have 500 c5's

 

[Quwa]

This would require significant structural alterations specially if the propulsion and radar are changed.

If all the quoted suggestions are incorporated then JF-17 will be a unique value proposition and will give tough competition to F-16 (V or Block 60) and Gripen NG, of-course US would have by then have done away with F16 lines.

However to deal with India conclusively and form a effective conventional deterrent Pakistan ought to procure jets with larger payload and reach so that appropriate mix is achieved. F-16 Block 52 complements JF-17 and subsequent orders are the quickest and most cost effective way to achieve this mix. Buying Flankers or their Chinese alternative is tricky as that would require substantial new investment in setting up support and training infrastructure. US is releasing the top hardware to Saudis for hard cash so I think moving forward as Pakistan's economy improves, even Pakistan would get access to latest avionics and weapon system provided it is able to afford them.

Yep but Pakistan invested greatly in the JF-17, I do expect significant structural changes and upgrades (to radar and engine) to be made. Granted, not as early byvBlock-III, but mid-to-late 2020s via a Block-IV or V is a reasonable bet.

 

[araz]

Ok, so we know that one country is working against us and yet we are bowing to them ? isn't that called Begairti ? why consider India as your enemy than ? when we all know the Game of US ? US is than our biggest enemy , propbably bigger than India right ?

Look back at Prophet Mohammad SAW and Sulha e hudaibiyya. We negotiated from a position of power to what apparently was a disgraceful pact. The point is these things are part of statecraft. You point toUS with aggressive designs and you will get mauled. That is not ghairat that is stupidity. Pakistan acted with some skills when we got US to accept our sacrifices and apologize for the mistake.


Iran did survive on its own, we can too .. yeah we don't have Oil but we can make a Alliance with China , ME and Russia .. ME wont be stop selling us Oil cause we Protect them , our forces are there to protect the king ..

Iran does not have 80 % of its exports sent to the US. WE DO!!! Iran also has oil and enough resources to sustain itself. Embargo on Iraq over 10 years cost the lives of 5 -8 million children and countless men not due to war. Point being there are many ways to play the game and you have very little. choice in the matter.


every sane person knows what US is doing in Afghanistan and Iraq , its just some Patriotic Stupid Americans who believe the Righteousness of US .. if the bigger game is been planned and playing within Pakistan than why not just cut all diplomatic ties with US ? did North Korea Vanish from the earth ? they still exist and continue to stand on what they believed .. our economy been destroyed , our infrastructure been destroyed , our Soldiers died Haram maut at Salala , and yet we are begging for 8 F-16 ? even a beggar at street have more Dignity you know that right ?

North Korea is not a muslim state with nuclear weapons which poses direct threat to US interests. The dynamics of Pakistan are totally different. Tell me how many of our soldiers will die a HARAAM MAUT if you take up aggressive posture against The US.As to Afghanistan the whole world is seeing what is being done. What do you see them doing?NADA. NIET. This is the way of the world . When the big boys play the little boys keep away. Stop thinking with your heart and think with your brain. You are thinking for 160m8llion people . What will you do?

I am not saying to go on all out war with US, but at least stop Buying weapons, stop relying on them , have some respect, are we not moving towards Russia ? can't we do this long ago ? since 1999 US is using Afghanistan to Play its proxies , i cant accept that ISI or Army does not know .. and yet they stay silent ? letting them do whatever they want ..maybe because majority of Generals have already shifted their families in US , their relatives , sons , daughters are all US national .. that's why ? ..

Have those lofty ideas when you have a choice. Who in their right mind will sell you weapons if the US does not want them to. Which single engined fighter of the capabilities are available to you at an affordable price that will give you the capabilites of the 16s. AND PLEASE DONT SAY J10 which was not available till 2006-07. And even nowPAF does not want to buy it. Have you wondered why. People say we aught to have the SU 35 -----how many and what cost implications when your flight per hour cost would quadruple. Would you be able to afford a fleet of 100. NO!!!!Gripen was refused. So any other choice or shall we sit back with the legacy fighters.



J-10's might have some issues , which plane does not have ? Even F-35 is experiencing issues , that mean you wont buy or secure an order ? J-10 is not equal to JF, but better than Thunder, Payload , Range , Radar , Hard points , IRST and what not .. we have F-7pg and Mirage 3, they are crashing like Mig-21's now .. lets say when we retire all of them , than what we will have in inventory ? 150-200 JF , and 90 F-16 ? and you want to counter 300+/- Su-30 MKI and 36 Rafale with this ? IAF will die laughing .. not to mentioned their Mig-29K and Mirage 2000 which are both superior to our Mirage and F-16 A/D blocks . you are talking about 5th generation like its piece of Cake to get ? if you think US will give you F-35 ,than forget it , J-31 is still 5-8 years ahead .. you have to induct a 4++ gen Aircraft ..

J10 has structural issues at least the B version. Two recent crashes have given a clue. Fell free to contradict. What else does it add to your force that JFT does not. 16s bring with them PODS and other capabilities at least 10 yrs ahead of what the 10s offer.

do we have SAM layers like IAF has ? NO ..
this the problem that our PAF is making fool out of the nation that they can counter with their enemies but they know they cant .. IAF , and IN becomes huge , and we remain tiny , not because of our economy but because of our bad decisions .
tell me what if we have 70 J-10's by now , wouldn't that be better than having 60 JF-17 ?.


Do you know the cost of a good long range missile system and its utility. You are looking at 3-4 billion. Where is it going to come up from and who is going to sell you them. The Chinese system are untested,and the russian systems have just been duped in Syria. Give me an affordable answer and we will talk.



do we even have a 4++ Generation Fighter ? only 18 Block 52 cant fight with everything IAF has ..
we have been given this idea that F-16 is GOD .. and can defeat F-22 Raptor right ? PAF is worshiping it ..
you are well knows poster, you must have known that PAF stands nowhere in Air when it comes to battle .. we have no Long range SAMs , nor any heavy Multi-role Fighter . F-16 is our front line , and if it got sanctioned in case of War, which i am sure it will be , we will be left with only 100 JF's , F-7PG , anad mirage 3ROSE , BABA ADAM ke Zamane ke Planes ..
and F-16 block 52 defeating Rafale , i was expecting this from you .. yaar common ...

Firstly I am not your yaar. Secondly you are guilty of seriously underestimating the capabilities of the MLU 16S. THEY WILL GIVE ANY PLANE IN THE REGION ...RAFALE INCLUDED A RUN FOR ITS MONEY. LOSE A RAFALE TO A 16. How will the IAF feel? Those baba Adam kay zamanay kay planes have kept your enemy at bay in 2002. They had their forces on the border for years but did not venture across the border. Nor their lovely Yum kayYAIEEES carry out surgical steikes across our borders . We are a poor nation and have to do with what we can afford not people wish for.

my whole point is why are we begging for just 8 F-16, again and again , if we beg to Russians maybe they will let China export their J-series to PAF which is far more capable than F-16 ( any block ) ..


We are not begging. They are a necessity for both the parties and the recent notification to Congress is testament to that. Lockmart wants to sell to us. I suspect it is a half way house and will allow us to get some more MLUes which is a very economical way of fleet replenishment and getting rid of our legacy fighters.


there are many things that has no prove my dear but people know .. and just because Public is not giving Taxes does not meant that Generals get justification to sell out the country right .. they get their salaries on time , they get houses , properties and what not .. now don't tell me Army men are poor and hungry fellows ..
I am not against the army , but the people who are making the decision , they think what ? countries prepare for war in peace time .. and it seems to me that PN and PAF just sleep in their bed's thinking that we have Nukes so now we are invincible .. they should be punished, Govt should investigate the PAF And PN Generals and looks for lobbies .. if they are taking bribe , but we all know that its impossible in Pakistan .. because Blasphemy of Prophet is Ok for Pakistani, but say a Word to Army , and people will come out to kill you..


Contentuous at best. The army is a part of this nation. When everybody who can get their hands is looting the country with both hands do you chide the army generals for getting what is a right for their service written in their contract. Dont like it change the terms of their contract so that they do not get anything at the end of 35 yrs of service. I dont mind but needs to be done


No one saying to start a full scale war, but still we can do something , shoot down the chopper , send F-16 to chase or anything .. or at least cut off ties later .. but no .. Shamsi base khali karo bhai ... if you think US regret that incident that i think you are deluded, they did on purpose .. this wasn;t a mistake but a planned attacked .. if someone believe that it was mistake is either a Fool or stupid .. and you know better than me about the Technology and stuff ..
The best solution for Pakistan is for few years cut off all ties with US, no Military buying or anything but you know , we cant do that either .. anyone who take this stand will be put in Jail by Military courts .. isn;t that true ?
F-16's are useless in modern warfare when you are dealing with Rafale , Su-30MKI hundreds of them , 2-3rd layer of SAM ..

I have answered most of your post in the post above read through it . You have no basis for making the lofty statements regarding the 16s that you have. They will remain relevant for another 20 yrs in The region. As to our next procurement it will be Chinese 5th generation fighter in 2020--25. The 16s will most probably get upto 110. Rest is just an opinion and I respect your view point but don't agree with it.
A

 

[rockstar08]

@araz
Look back at Prophet Mohammad SAW and Sulha e hudaibiyya. We negotiated from a position of power to what apparently was a disgraceful pact. The point is these things are part of statecraft. You point toUS with aggressive designs and you will get mauled. That is not ghairat that is stupidity. Pakistan acted with some skills when we got US to accept our sacrifices and apologize for the mistake.

Ok so now you have bring Prophet into this , please tell me since when Prophet agreed with Quresh while his fellow Muslims were been butchered ? when he have power he act .. we did not act at all , whatever US said we just agree like a Servant , that we fear US more than Allah ..
there was no US presidential Statement asking for apology for Salala Incident .. at least none i know off .. and again, even if they apologize will they bring those 20-30 men back ? you didn't answer what if Pakistan shoot down a US convoy ? killing 10-20 US soldiers , would they leave you with just one apology ? this is the difference between a Boss mindset and Chaprassi Mindset ..

Iran does not have 80 % of its exports sent to the US. WE DO!!! Iran also has oil and enough resources to sustain itself. Embargo on Iraq over 10 years cost the lives of 5 -8 million children and countless men not due to war. Point being there are many ways to play the game and you have very little. choice in the matter.

what have you gain with this 80% of your exports reaching US ? your economy is still worse than Iran ?
we have Coal , Gas , and other resources , Pakistan can be self sustain , money is not required but a will to do so ..
how many Pakistani's died so far in the game US is playing in our neighbor ? a war which does not have any end .. and worse part that no matter what we will do, how many soldiers we sacrifices world will still see us as terrorist sympathizer country and ISI and Army will still be bashed for supporting Haqqani ..

North Korea is not a muslim state with nuclear weapons which poses direct threat to US interests. The dynamics of Pakistan are totally different. Tell me how many of our soldiers will die a HARAAM MAUT if you take up aggressive posture against The US.As to Afghanistan the whole world is seeing what is being done. What do you see them doing?NADA. NIET. This is the way of the world . When the big boys play the little boys keep away. Stop thinking with your heart and think with your brain. You are thinking for 160m8llion people . What will you do?

you are kidding right ? what is happening in Pakistan that you can call it " Islamic " ? and where does the religion comes into this ? i hope you are not talking about Illuminati or Zionist propaganda ?
if our soldiers die protecting their land , than it wont be haram maut .. it will be the true Shaheed .. or should i just accept that our forces are coward to fight with US .. and who say we should fight with US ? i am just saying cut of all diplomatic ties , and stop buying Military hardware from them ..
I would rather live a short life with dignity than living a long life with no respect ...

Have those lofty ideas when you have a choice. Who in their right mind will sell you weapons if the US does not want them to. Which single engined fighter of the capabilities are available to you at an affordable price that will give you the capabilites of the 16s. AND PLEASE DONT SAY J10 which was not available till 2006-07. And even nowPAF does not want to buy it. Have you wondered why. People say we aught to have the SU 35 -----how many and what cost implications when your flight per hour cost would quadruple. Would you be able to afford a fleet of 100. NO!!!!Gripen was refused. So any other choice or shall we sit back with the legacy fighters.

China , Russia ... look at Israel , they sell blue print to China .. you just need to take a stand , you fear US like its controlling the Oxygen in Pakistan and if we cut of diplomatic ties they will suffocate us ..yeah J-10 were recently but do we see any orders from PAF ? NO ..
I told you about the Mirage 2000k if we tried , we could have get them. F-16 in 80's and 90's was fine decision but not anymore, at least for stake of Pakistan .. we can invest in J-10's modify it as per our needs . at least Chinese wont humiliate you , bash your army and kill your citizen ..not to mentioned what US did when PN requested for OHP .. remember that humiliation ?
there were Chinese options but we did not even look for it .. we make 60% JF when we can own J10's which can stand par with Block 52 ...
what if we start negotiating with Russian , do back door diplomacy with China and Russia , maybe something came out of it , what we get from the Friendship of US ? they even refused to give us Drone Tech, which China gives ...

J10 has structural issues at least the B version. Two recent crashes have given a clue. Fell free to contradict. What else does it add to your force that JFT does not. 16s bring with them PODS and other capabilities at least 10 yrs ahead of what the 10s offer.

there is no evidence which can prove that J10 are 10 years back from F-16's .. J-10 with PODS can take down F-16 , with AESA . JF has less payload , no AESA , no IRST , less range ..

Do you know the cost of a good long range missile system and its utility. You are looking at 3-4 billion. Where is it going to come up from and who is going to sell you them. The Chinese system are untested,and the russian systems have just been duped in Syria. Give me an affordable answer and we will talk.

yeah its expensive, but do our Think tanks even know a word " Planning " , we have signed a deal for 8 Subs , which will take around 10 years , we can buy 4 and rest money can bring some Frigates / Sams .. but Mashallah to our Think Tanks .. Chinese HQ-9 is vital solution , and China can easily give you in easy loans ..

Firstly I am not your yaar. Secondly you are guilty of seriously underestimating the capabilities of the MLU 16S. THEY WILL GIVE ANY PLANE IN THE REGION ...RAFALE INCLUDED A RUN FOR ITS MONEY. LOSE A RAFALE TO A 16. How will the IAF feel? Those baba Adam kay zamanay kay planes have kept your enemy at bay in 2002. They had their forces on the border for years but did not venture across the border. Nor their lovely Yum kayYAIEEES carry out surgical steikes across our borders . We are a poor nation and have to do with what we can afford not people wish for.

I am not underestimating , you can say F-16 can take down raptor , so what ? technically they are equals ? NO ..
Rafale beating by F-16 is just a satisfying Statement .. nothing more than that .. Rafale is Generation Ahead of F-16's , little google can help you with that ..
and if you think Rafale will be coming alone , against a whole Sqs of F-16 than its foolish , Rafale will be flying with MKI and 2000k's , that will make anything in our inventory RUN FOR ITS MONEY .. the only thing that keep your enemy at bay is NUKE , not your bahadur Army , not your Invincible Generals or anything , its all nukes .. swallow it cause its reality .
and what you think Indian will do surgical strikes knowing Pakistan have nukes and can use it ? US wont let it happen to prevent a full scale Nuclear war ... dont find a escape root ..
yes we are poor nations like many , but we dont have Dignity or respect like every Poor country have ..

We are not begging. They are a necessity for both the parties and the recent notification to Congress is testament to that. Lockmart wants to sell to us. I suspect it is a half way house and will allow us to get some more MLUes which is a very economical way of fleet replenishment and getting rid of our legacy fighters.

are we not ? we are begging US to release those F-16's , which no one knows comes with how many strings , another base , more VISA's , and what not ..
buying more used , and than what ? retiring them after what 5-8 years ? world is moving to new Fighters we are stuck with MLU's one, and even on those US humiliate Pakistan anywhere they got chance ..

India is a trillion dollar economy. We, honestly, cannot keep up with Indian arms procurement with our current economic situation.

Regarding War on Terror:-

US have killed a large number of terrorists inside Pakistan in a span of years. Several prominent TTP leaders were among them (including the feared Baitullah Mehsud). US killed these prominent TTP leaders to make it easier for Pakistani military forces to accomplish their objectives in the affected regions inside Pakistan.

Problem is that Afghanistan is a messed-up nation. Afghan tribes seldom get along with each other and this is why Afghanistan remains a lost cause. Just recently, a Tribal leader punched another Tribal leader in front of the current Afghan President. Go figure.

Still, we hope that US will not leave Afghanistan and deny ISIS a foothold in the region.

Not talking about matching in everything , read my posts again ..

we have killed AQ members more than US did .. and yet we are called Terrorist nation by US, their military don't trust you .. and not to mentioned who is giving safe passage to TTP in Afghanistan ? whenever we start a huge Operation TTP leadership flee to Afghanistan ,and US and NATO with all military might cant see that .. lol
US is not letting ISIS grow in Afghanistan and once its become a monster US will leave Afghanistan ... mark this post ..

Hope is nothing , US still don;t trust Japan and Germany ... and you think they will trust us ? LOL
they will leave this region once ISIS gains its ground .

 

[HAIDER]

Hi,

Really----this piece of sh-it JF 17 made in china is a super stud---.
And the J10 made by china to fight against the american aircraft is a piece of tu-rd?

lolzz............Sir ji itna ghussa.....lolzzz

 

[MastanKhan]

lolzz............Sir ji itna ghussa.....lolzzz

Hi,

It is not 'ghussa'---it is just basics---.

 

[HAIDER]

Hi,

It is not 'ghussa'---it is just basics---.

Sir ji give you little idea about PAF, few months ago meet a ExPAF a top notch aero nautical engineer a CEO of GE engineering segment.....now guess, how Pakistan waste its talent . Just because no proper allocation of resources in arm forces.

 

[Piper]

Yep but Pakistan invested greatly in the JF-17, I do expect significant structural changes and upgrades (to radar and engine) to be made. Granted, not as early byvBlock-III, but mid-to-late 2020s via a Block-IV or V is a reasonable bet.

Well one great thing about JF-17 is that it is a JV hence you have entire Chinese infrastructure for testing and validation at your disposal in addition to the significant insights which Chinese have gained through their other ongoing projects like Flanker derivatives, The stealth jets and J-10c etc. This way quicker updates can be incorporated in the JF-17 platform when it comes to structural mods required.

 

[LeGenD]

Not talking about matching in everything , read my posts again ..

we have killed AQ members more than US did .. and yet we are called Terrorist nation by US, their military don't trust you .. and not to mentioned who is giving safe passage to TTP in Afghanistan ? whenever we start a huge Operation TTP leadership flee to Afghanistan ,and US and NATO with all military might cant see that .. lol
US is not letting ISIS grow in Afghanistan and once its become a monster US will leave Afghanistan ... mark this post ..

Hope is nothing , US still don;t trust Japan and Germany ... and you think they will trust us ? LOL
they will leave this region once ISIS gains its ground .

Brother,

Your concerns are duly noted but you are overlooking some ground realities. I will elaborate my point-of-view in following parts:-

1. Importance of diplomacy in the matters of foreign affairs
2. Sponsoring terrorism?
3. Mistrust
4. The way forward

1. Importance of diplomacy in the matters of foreign affairs

Foreign affairs should not be largely emotionally-driven, period. Look no further then the example of Cuban Missile Crises to understand my point. If both USSR and USA had not shown willingness to address such a serious matter through diplomacy; the world would have been a much different (and virtually inhospitable) place to inhabit afterwards.

FYI: Cuban Missile Crisis - Cold War - HISTORY.com

Lesson: Diplomacy can achieve wonders even in the most dire circumstances.

2. Sponsoring terrorism?

Some Americans might perceive Pakistan as a sponsor of terrorism but same is true on our end; Pakistani individuals do not accuse the US of clandestinely supporting ISIS, TTP and even Al-Qaeda affiliates at times?

Such views are shortsighted and spread confusion, mistrust and disconnect among both camps.

Thankfully, some semblance of sanity still prevails in both camps and 'voice of reason' continues to influence the official stance of the US and Pakistan [for each other].

This is how the US perceives Pakistan officially: Pakistan (No hostile intent apparent)

In reality, both the US and Pakistan are victims of terrorism. However, there's more to this story than meets the eye. Sadly, both nations are guilty of adopting a foreign policy of intervention in the matters of other nations and terrorism is an unwitting consequence of it.

At some point in history, a (communist) Afghanistan was not acceptable to both the US and Pakistan and both countries intervened to defeat communist forces in Afghanistan. However, this [shortsighted] intervention eventually backfired and came back to haunt both nations. The so-called jihad against communist forces in Afghanistan was sponsored by CIA and led by Zia administration; even the word 'ironic' is put to shame in this case.

There are additional ground realities to discuss but this would significantly lengthen my post, so I will refrain from highlighting them. Meanwhile, check this excellent assessment: index

3. Mistrust

Mistrust between the US and Pakistan is not a one-sided issue but a mutual problem. Mistrust is the 'root cause' of all issues between the two countries and prevents both to connect on cultural and economic levels. Mistrust (evidently) led to one of the most tumultuous and embarrassing developments for both Pakistan and the US in their history in 2011.

Here is a recap:

The last calendar year was by far the most tumultuous in a decade of tense and mistrustful relations between Pakistan and the United States. It began with CIA contractor Raymond Davis shooting and killing two Pakistanis in broad daylight in Lahore, then only worsened in May when Osama bin Laden was found and killed in a US raid at a compound near the Pakistan Military Academy in Abbottabad (an episode that severely angered Pakistanis and embarrassed the Army, which was domestically seen as unable to secure the homeland against foreign intrusion and internationally suspected of providing refuge to America’s worst enemy). Tensions escalated further as the US began pressuring Pakistan to attack the Haqqani Network (HN), a Taliban group with safe havens in North Waziristan. Pakistan refused, and crisis hit when the HN launched a twenty-two hour assault on the US Embassy and NATO headquarters in Kabul. An infuriated Admiral Mike Mullen, outgoing chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, lashed out against Pakistan, saying the HN was a “veritable arm” of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency. Weeks of diplomatic efforts finally thawed relations, but just as the situation stabilized, a NATO attack on a Pakistani checkpoint in Salala in late November threw the relationship into a tailspin. Twenty-four Pakistani soldiers died in the two-hour assault. Pakistan was furious, immediately suspending NATO supply lines and boycotting the Bonn conference on Afghanistan held in early December.

The crises of 2011 prompted debates in both countries over how to move forward. In Washington, several administration officials and members of Congress have argued for sidelining Pakistan and giving India a larger stake in Afghanistan. Others insist that it is important to tread carefully and that Pakistan cannot just be dumped. In Pakistan, many are arguing for complete disengagement while others are pushing for new rules of engagement.

Source: US-Pakistan Relations: Common and Clashing Interests | World Affairs Journal

Irony never gets old for both camps.

---

Then [COAS] Raheel Sharif came and the situation on the ground [Af-Pak region] suddenly changed for the better for Pakistan. Raheel Sharif seems to understand the entire game much better then his predecessor and what would be at stake for the country in the long-run if the US and Pakistan become increasingly hostile to each other due to mistrust factor. The (true) enemies of Pakistan stand to gain considerably from the enmity between the US and Pakistan in the long-run; these are India, hostile Taliban factions and their affiliates, ISIS and strictly Anti-American extremist Pakistani elements.

The (true) enemies of Pakistan are much more likely to drag it down to a virtually endless state of war with the US and entire Western bloc as a consequence. Even Iran can exploit this situation to its advantage. Moreover, China cannot rescue Pakistan from this quagmire by itself.

In the end, only Pakistani individuals can save Pakistan from great harm through sane decisions. Former [COAS] Pervez Musharraf attempted to enlighten the country with this ground reality since the 9/11 event.

4. The way forward

So what is the best way forward for Pakistan?

DIPLOMACY

Here is an excellent assessment, co-authored by a Pakistani and American expert: U.S.-Pakistan Relations Must Rebalance for Today's World | The National Interest

Historically, the U.S.-Pakistan relationship has served the two countries’ critical interests, but not without a cost to each. The trade-off was acceptable until America’s post-9/11 re-engagement with Pakistan became entangled with a grinding, unpopular war that created problems, contrary interests and distrust on both sides. The relationship came to rest on the narrowest of common interests and public support. Since Prime Minister Sharif’s first visit to Washington in October 2013, there has been a slow but positive reversal in relations. And now, with the second visit of General Sharif, there are grounds for optimism.

In a town where foreign policy is a ceaseless work in progress, and where Pakistan’s friends seem temporary and its enemies permanent, only time will tell if we have heard the last word on the General’s visit. But for now, the signs are positive.

It is very difficult to develop a nation but relatively much easier to destroy it.

Pakistan's future should be prosperous or destructive? Make your choice, people.

 

[rockstar08]

Brother,

Your concerns are duly noted but you are overlooking some ground realities. I will elaborate my point-of-view in following parts:-

1. Importance of diplomacy in the matters of foreign affairs
2. Sponsoring terrorism?
3. Mistrust
4. The way forward

1. Importance of diplomacy in the matters of foreign affairs

Foreign affairs should not be largely emotionally-driven, period. Look no further then the example of Cuban Missile Crises to understand my point. If both USSR and USA had not shown willingness to address such a serious matter through diplomacy; the world would have been a much different (and virtually inhospitable) place to inhabit afterwards.

FYI: Cuban Missile Crisis - Cold War - HISTORY.com

Lesson: Diplomacy can achieve wonders even in the most dire circumstances.

2. Sponsoring terrorism?

Some Americans might perceive Pakistan as a sponsor of terrorism but same is true on our end; Pakistani individuals do not accuse the US of clandestinely supporting ISIS, TTP and even Al-Qaeda affiliates at times?

Such views are shortsighted and spread confusion, mistrust and disconnect among both camps.

Thankfully, some semblance of sanity still prevails in both camps and 'voice of reason' continues to influence the official stance of the US and Pakistan [for each other].

This is how the US perceives Pakistan officially: Pakistan (No hostile intent apparent)

In reality, both the US and Pakistan are victims of terrorism. However, there's more to this story than meets the eye. Sadly, both nations are guilty of adopting a foreign policy of intervention in the matters of other nations and terrorism is an unwitting consequence of it.

At some point in history, a (communist) Afghanistan was not acceptable to both the US and Pakistan and both countries intervened to defeat communist forces in Afghanistan. However, this [shortsighted] intervention eventually backfired and came back to haunt both nations. The so-called jihad against communist forces in Afghanistan was sponsored by CIA and led by Zia administration; even the word 'ironic' is put to shame in this case.

There are additional ground realities to discuss but this would significantly lengthen my post, so I will refrain from highlighting them. Meanwhile, check this excellent assessment: index

3. Mistrust

Mistrust between the US and Pakistan is not a one-sided issue but a mutual problem. Mistrust is the 'root cause' of all issues between the two countries and prevents both to connect on cultural and economic levels. Mistrust (evidently) led to one of the most tumultuous and embarrassing developments for both Pakistan and the US in their history in 2011.

Here is a recap:

The last calendar year was by far the most tumultuous in a decade of tense and mistrustful relations between Pakistan and the United States. It began with CIA contractor Raymond Davis shooting and killing two Pakistanis in broad daylight in Lahore, then only worsened in May when Osama bin Laden was found and killed in a US raid at a compound near the Pakistan Military Academy in Abbottabad (an episode that severely angered Pakistanis and embarrassed the Army, which was domestically seen as unable to secure the homeland against foreign intrusion and internationally suspected of providing refuge to America’s worst enemy). Tensions escalated further as the US began pressuring Pakistan to attack the Haqqani Network (HN), a Taliban group with safe havens in North Waziristan. Pakistan refused, and crisis hit when the HN launched a twenty-two hour assault on the US Embassy and NATO headquarters in Kabul. An infuriated Admiral Mike Mullen, outgoing chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, lashed out against Pakistan, saying the HN was a “veritable arm” of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency. Weeks of diplomatic efforts finally thawed relations, but just as the situation stabilized, a NATO attack on a Pakistani checkpoint in Salala in late November threw the relationship into a tailspin. Twenty-four Pakistani soldiers died in the two-hour assault. Pakistan was furious, immediately suspending NATO supply lines and boycotting the Bonn conference on Afghanistan held in early December.

The crises of 2011 prompted debates in both countries over how to move forward. In Washington, several administration officials and members of Congress have argued for sidelining Pakistan and giving India a larger stake in Afghanistan. Others insist that it is important to tread carefully and that Pakistan cannot just be dumped. In Pakistan, many are arguing for complete disengagement while others are pushing for new rules of engagement.

Source: US-Pakistan Relations: Common and Clashing Interests | World Affairs Journal

Irony never gets old for both camps.

---

Then [COAS] Raheel Sharif came and the situation on the ground [Af-Pak region] suddenly changed for the better for Pakistan. Raheel Sharif seems to understand the entire game much better then his predecessor and what would be at stake for the country in the long-run if the US and Pakistan become increasingly hostile to each other due to mistrust factor. The (true) enemies of Pakistan stand to gain considerably from the enmity between the US and Pakistan in the long-run; these are India, hostile Taliban factions and their affiliates, ISIS and strictly Anti-American extremist Pakistani elements.

The (true) enemies of Pakistan are much more likely to drag it down to a virtually endless state of war with the US and entire Western bloc as a consequence. Even Iran can exploit this situation to its advantage. Moreover, China cannot rescue Pakistan from this quagmire by itself.

In the end, only Pakistani individuals can save Pakistan from great harm through sane decisions. Former [COAS] Pervez Musharraf attempted to enlighten the country with this ground reality since the 9/11 event.

4. The way forward

So what is the best way forward for Pakistan?

DIPLOMACY

Here is an excellent assessment, co-authored by a Pakistani and American expert: U.S.-Pakistan Relations Must Rebalance for Today's World | The National Interest

Historically, the U.S.-Pakistan relationship has served the two countries’ critical interests, but not without a cost to each. The trade-off was acceptable until America’s post-9/11 re-engagement with Pakistan became entangled with a grinding, unpopular war that created problems, contrary interests and distrust on both sides. The relationship came to rest on the narrowest of common interests and public support. Since Prime Minister Sharif’s first visit to Washington in October 2013, there has been a slow but positive reversal in relations. And now, with the second visit of General Sharif, there are grounds for optimism.

In a town where foreign policy is a ceaseless work in progress, and where Pakistan’s friends seem temporary and its enemies permanent, only time will tell if we have heard the last word on the General’s visit. But for now, the signs are positive.

It is very difficult to develop a nation but relatively much easier to destroy it.

Pakistan's future should be prosperous or destructive? Make your choice, people.

whatever you said , about diplomacy and other points you raised , are useless in Pak-US relationship, thinking about Cuban missile crisis, the Diplomacy works cause neither Russia nor US were in Position to stand a nuclear war .. the world will go extinct . if US has the power to wipe out Russia , so did Russia ..
Diplomacy works only in equal partners ..

Pakistan was always considers a servant nation and through history we were treated like one ..the best way to move forward is to leave US for few years, just keep the relationship limited to lowest levels of Diplomacy , Dont buy any military hardware, no alliance nothing .. keep your country away from there battles , their proxies their products ..
the effort we are doing on these 8 F-16's if we did put half of the effort on Russian they will agree to sell Su-35's which is far capable than F-16 any block ..

these stupid decision from our Corrupt generals , think tanks , and lobbiest they are eating Pakistan like " Khatmaal " .
no one can do anything against them, cause they consider themselves unanswered to anyone , and above all law