US committed to boosting Pakistan’s precision strike capability, Congress told

[PakShaheen79]

With Block-III (and IV/V/etc) we would have to adjust what we mean by "high-end". It is possible (if not likely) that some future JF-17 variant (possibly Block-III, likely later block) will incorporate all the following: AESA, IRST, HMD/S, composites, new RD-93 variant (more comparable to GE F414), HOBS AAM, etc all in one fighter. "High-end" in this context means having platforms that offer substantial capability leaps, i.e. 5th gen fighters for strike (FC-31) and markedly more capable 4.5+ gen to fill in key gaps. The latter is where the PAF's reported interest in Su-35 comes in.

Actually all these features like AESA, IRST, HMD/S, composites, new engine, HOBS WVR AAMs, larger payload are the things which makes a plane "high-tech" as they increase the operational scope of PAF. Now if all these things (or most of these) are coming with later blocks of Thunder why PAF would opt for J-10? and as you said PAF is actually eyeing SU-35s. Few days back, a video was shared of Express TV program (Takrrar) where PAF officer revealed that PAF is working on some future project as well apart from JFT. All this means, there is very slim chance if J-10 will actually become part of PAF.

 

[Quwa]

Actually all these features like AESA, IRST, HMD/S, composites, new engine, HOBS WVR AAMs, larger payload are the things which makes a plane "high-tech" as they increase the operational scope of PAF. Now if all these things (or most of these) are coming with later blocks of Thunder why PAF would opt for J-10? and as you said PAF is actually eyeing SU-35s. Few days back, a video was shared of Express TV program (Takrrar) where PAF officer revealed that PAF is working on some future project as well apart from JFT. All this means, there is very slim chance if J-10 will actually become part of PAF.

Absolutely correct.

It's worth remembering that the PAF's aversion to the J-10 isn't the JF-17 Block-III alone, but the fact that it already has the F-16. The J-10 is a medium-weight fighter, and the PAF won't be able to buy very many of them without cutting into the JF-17 and F-16. What are the returns? It would be a marginal jump, so is that worth the cost of inducting a new platform? For a cost-sensitive entity like the PAF, this isn't possible.

The next medium-weight fighter will likely be the FC-31 (or some other next-generation platform). Why? The internal weapons-bay, low observability airframe design, and orientation towards heavy sensor-fusion. This is the opportunity for the PAF to have tomorrow's Super Hornet or Rafale, and will add punch to the PAF's mainstay, especially in terms of strike and beyond-visual-range air-to-air warfare. Now that will offer the PAF significant returns, right from the point-of-induction all the into the very long-term.

 

[araz]

@araz

@rockstar08
Ok so now you have bring Prophet into this , please tell me since when Prophet agreed with Quresh while his fellow Muslims were been butchered ? when he have power he act .. we did not act at all , whatever US said we just agree like a Servant , that we fear US more than Allah ..
there was no US presidential Statement asking for apology for Salala Incident .. at least none i know off .. and again, even if they apologize will they bring those 20-30 men back ? you didn't answer what if Pakistan shoot down a US convoy ? killing 10-20 US soldiers , would they leave you with just one apology ? this is the difference between a Boss mindset and Chaprassi Mindset ..

When should I not bring the prophetSAW into it? I will bring the ProphetSAW into any argument that I can as he is my guide. I have just given you an example of when He SAW negotiated from a relative position of power and you ignored my point altogether. How wise? So sit for another 5 years and get no apology from the president. Sometimes in STATE CRAFT IT IS NECESSARY TO GIVE FACE TO PEOPLE. Or you dont remember how the Prophet granted a valey full of camels to hazrat Abu Sufiyyan(perhaps you dont know your islamic history). If you dont tell me and I will remind you.A comparison between pakistan and US and their relative responses is precisely the point which i am trying to convey to you and you are playing it back to me!!SubhanAllah. This is precisely the point. They would not and in the process you will get mauled.

what have you gain with this 80% of your exports reaching US ? your economy is still worse than Iran ?
we have Coal , Gas , and other resources , Pakistan can be self sustain , money is not required but a will to do so ..
how many Pakistani's died so far in the game US is playing in our neighbor ? a war which does not have any end .. and worse part that no matter what we will do, how many soldiers we sacrifices world will still see us as terrorist sympathizer country and ISI and Army will still be bashed for supporting Haqqani ..

That is not the fault of US or Iran but the fault of your own politicians., The fact remains that 80% of your exports go to US and a strangle on that will send you into the dark ages in no timeas you wont be bale to support your energy bills or repay your loans. You know I am really glad you are not the leader of Pakistan. Otherwise we would be even more doomed.

you are kidding right ? what is happening in Pakistan that you can call it " Islamic " ? and where does the religion comes into this ? i hope you are not talking about Illuminati or Zionist propaganda ?
if our soldiers die protecting their land , than it wont be haram maut .. it will be the true Shaheed .. or should i just accept that our forces are coward to fight with US .. and who say we should fight with US ? i am just saying cut of all diplomatic ties , and stop buying Military hardware from them ..
I would rather live a short life with dignity than living a long life with no respect ...
Why do you think this whole game is being played? Why are your nukes so important to the US that everytime they want to put pressure on you they will tell the world how your nukes are at risk. So you may call it whatever you like I read it my way and I am entitled to it. As yto your assumptions of your soldiers dying in defence of your country, why do you think your army did not respond? And what do you think would have happened if you had ? It would just have been painted as an agressive episode from Pakistan and the US would have achieved its designs of agressive intents on pakistan. You would much live a short life but dying a death of stupidity is not dying it would hacve been a political suicide. I dont know what you are on but really your view point is taking us to very disasterous conclusions. You need to understand the difference between defence in case of sustained agression rather than a case of mistaken identity which incidentally has happened with both US and UK soldiers in the Afghan war. Mistakes happen dont make it worse.


China , Russia ... look at Israel , they sell blue print to China .. you just need to take a stand , you fear US like its controlling the Oxygen in Pakistan and if we cut of diplomatic ties they will suffocate us ..yeah J-10 were recently but do we see any orders from PAF ? NO ..
I told you about the Mirage 2000k if we tried , we could have get them. F-16 in 80's and 90's was fine decision but not anymore, at least for stake of Pakistan .. we can invest in J-10's modify it as per our needs . at least Chinese wont humiliate you , bash your army and kill your citizen ..not to mentioned what US did when PN requested for OHP .. remember that humiliation ?
there were Chinese options but we did not even look for it .. we make 60% JF when we can own J10's which can stand par with Block 52 ...
what if we start negotiating with Russian , do back door diplomacy with China and Russia , maybe something came out of it , what we get from the Friendship of US ? they even refused to give us Drone Tech, which China gives ...

Bhai take a deep breath and think again. With its economy controlled by the jews and owing China a trillion dollars in bonds do you think US is going to do anything in the open against them. You cannot compare apples and oranges. These countries are the apples of US eyes and we are not worth more than an orange pip to thewm except when it matters. Live with it and gain from it to survive. This is the reality not the fantasy world of "we are all equal." Instead "some of us are more equal than others".

there is no evidence which can prove that J10 are 10 years back from F-16's .. J-10 with PODS can take down F-16 , with AESA . JF has less payload , no AESA , no IRST , less range ..

Well I beg to differ with you. have you seen the screen shots of the Goodrich pod and there is nothing in China that can even reeach close to it in clarity. Ask any of the PAF buffs that are here and they will testify to it. Given certain favourable circumstances yes J10 may well take out a 16 but at what ratio. i think it may well be 2-3 /1. But lets ask someone who is current /exPAF to elaborate.

yeah its expensive, but do our Think tanks even know a word " Planning " , we have signed a deal for 8 Subs , which will take around 10 years , we can buy 4 and rest money can bring some Frigates / Sams .. but Mashallah to our Think Tanks .. Chinese HQ-9 is vital solution , and China can easily give you in easy loans ..
All I will say to you is you have had too much of Mastan Khan and there is logic behind getting 8 subs if it will give you the capability of building 4 in house. The capability transfer in itself is worth an arm and a leg . But you guys think the Chinese Government is out there to give you jkhairaat. You just walk in ask and it is given. You do remember that the Chinese at one time did not allow you access on to on of their subs. Sams. How do you know we dont have HQ9 when a previous ACM has already said that we do. The fact still remains that SAMs alone are not the answer and PAF HAS EVALUATED ITS STRATEGY AND THINKS IT WILL STILL NEED PLANES FOR ITS DEFENCE. The frigates will come and I need you to understand that defence deals do not happen overnight and neither do technoical specifications. We have been hearing about the Subs deal since 2012 and it has materialized in the end of 2015. If you have the money then by all means go for frigates as well, but if it is a case of either or I will always go for Subs.


I am not underestimating , you can say F-16 can take down raptor , so what ? technically they are equals ? NO ..
Rafale beating by F-16 is just a satisfying Statement .. nothing more than that .. Rafale is Generation Ahead of F-16's , little google can help you with that ..
and if you think Rafale will be coming alone , against a whole Sqs of F-16 than its foolish , Rafale will be flying with MKI and 2000k's , that will make anything in our inventory RUN FOR ITS MONEY .. the only thing that keep your enemy at bay is NUKE , not your bahadur Army , not your Invincible Generals or anything , its all nukes .. swallow it cause its reality .
and what you think Indian will do surgical strikes knowing Pakistan have nukes and can use it ? US wont let it happen to prevent a full scale Nuclear war ... dont find a escape root ..
yes we are poor nations like many , but we dont have Dignity or respect like every Poor country have ..

If the rafale is such a juicy buy why are the Indians squeeling like stuck pigs at the sight of 8 16s. They are both 4+ generation planes and I stand by my earlier statement PAF with bl52s will give the rafale a run for its money. Where in my posts have I sung the praises of the Army or Air force. It is only as good as the people are. If you are corrupt then why blame your forces if they are corrupt. However, they are the single most organized, educated and patriotic enbtity around and perhaps still much more patriotic than you and me.The Nukes are both a blessing and a curse. But tell me what will happen to this region if you use the Nukes.Even if you were able to annihilate India into dust what will happen to the region? have you even thought about it. All the f16s do is raise your nuclear threshold higher and give you that much more time to seek peace. The other aspect to it is that if it is just Nukes protecting you then why bother with modernization, Arm 20 Shaheens towards india and rest assured of peace.

are we not ? we are begging US to release those F-16's , which no one knows comes with how many strings , another base , more VISA's , and what not ..
buying more used , and than what ? retiring them after what 5-8 years ? world is moving to new Fighters we are stuck with MLU's one, and even on those US humiliate Pakistan anywhere they got chance ..
Not talking about matching in everything , read my posts again ..

This once again is not begging but a process of negotiations. There is no begging form Pakistan. Rather a solution which suits the PAF and the US best. It is a win win situation. You are getting good fighters at subsidized rates and they are getting your co operation in Afghanistan which is vital for both countries. If the US were to vacate Afghanistan tomorrow what do you think will happen to Pakistan. But you havent thought this one through have you.

we have killed AQ members more than US did .. and yet we are called Terrorist nation by US, their military don't trust you .. and not to mentioned who is giving safe passage to TTP in Afghanistan ? whenever we start a huge Operation TTP leadership flee to Afghanistan ,and US and NATO with all military might cant see that .. lol
US is not letting ISIS grow in Afghanistan and once its become a monster US will leave Afghanistan ... mark this post ..Hope is nothing , US still don;t trust Japan and Germany ... and you think they will trust us ? LOL
they will leave this region once ISIS gains its ground

And why ever not. You dont understand the logic behind US policies do you? You have no concept of the great game do you~? The problem is not what they are calling you as they have to find scapegoats for their own failures. On a state level they have openly appreciated your role although by right they have asked you to fulfill what they think will dserve their interests . You on the other hand have poorly projected your narrative and perhaps inspite of your please otherwise the Governement has stuck to its own agenda. As to ISIS we are responsible for the security of our own borders, so if ISIS/ Daesh/other erntities come in to Pakistan and we let them roam around without checking them then it is not ythe US fault it is the fault of our political/ military establishment. Bhai what we have to look after is pakistan and not Afghanistan. As I have said there is a great game being played and like every one else we are trying to survive in a very hostile and difficult environm,ent. It is not ideal but our choices are very few and it is very much a fight for our survival. We will win or lose irrespective of what XY or Z wants depending on our own capabilities to exploit the situation to our advantage aand get the best possible out come from it. It is not ideal but this is how it is. The F16s suit us now, when our job is done just like the US will move on so will we.
A

 

[rockstar08]

@araz
When should I not bring the prophetSAW into it? I will bring the ProphetSAW into any argument that I can as he is my guide. I have just given you an example of when He SAW negotiated from a relative position of power and you ignored my point altogether. How wise? So sit for another 5 years and get no apology from the president. Sometimes in STATE CRAFT IT IS NECESSARY TO GIVE FACE TO PEOPLE. Or you dont remember how the Prophet granted a valey full of camels to hazrat Abu Sufiyyan(perhaps you dont know your islamic history). If you dont tell me and I will remind you.A comparison between pakistan and US and their relative responses is precisely the point which i am trying to convey to you and you are playing it back to me!!SubhanAllah. This is precisely the point. They would not and in the process you will get mauled.

sadqe jao mai apki innocence pe janab . you are lecturing me on Prophet and Islam and yet you are talking like you are afraid to US more than Allah ? since when in History Prophet let his followers died a Haram Maut ? and did nothing ? a allied tribe caravan was attack that initiated the conquest of Mecca and end of Sulah hudabiya . i can humiliate you anytime when it comes to Islam , but i am trying to keep it civil ..
and i don't need to learn Islam from a person who can;t see the basics of Islam . Mashallah .
the question is people like you are also brainwashed to the deepest point of your empty brains . that we can't do anything if US take its hands off .. keep believing that, i am assuming your half of the family is already US national and you are lecturing me on Patriotism lol

That is not the fault of US or Iran but the fault of your own politicians., The fact remains that 80% of your exports go to US and a strangle on that will send you into the dark ages in no timeas you wont be bale to support your energy bills or repay your loans. You know I am really glad you are not the leader of Pakistan. Otherwise we would be even more doomed.

again , you have become a self sufficient country , just like we did when it comes to Sanctions , when US stop F-16's we come up with JF-17 .. just like that if our exports did not reach to US does not mean we cant send it to other countries . we are not going on war with US but cutting off diplomatic ties . there is a difference if you have comprehension issues than i cant teach you ABCD here ..
and i am glad that Pakistan is ruled by such people who will sell their Mother and sister to these American to get Dollar and F-16's .. you are no different to such people . at least i talk about respect and Dignity .and you talk like a vessel .

Why do you think this whole game is being played? Why are your nukes so important to the US that everytime they want to put pressure on you they will tell the world how your nukes are at risk. So you may call it whatever you like I read it my way and I am entitled to it. As yto your assumptions of your soldiers dying in defence of your country, why do you think your army did not respond? And what do you think would have happened if you had ? It would just have been painted as an agressive episode from Pakistan and the US would have achieved its designs of agressive intents on pakistan. You would much live a short life but dying a death of stupidity is not dying it would hacve been a political suicide. I dont know what you are on but really your view point is taking us to very disasterous conclusions. You need to understand the difference between defence in case of sustained agression rather than a case of mistaken identity which incidentally has happened with both US and UK soldiers in the Afghan war. Mistakes happen dont make it worse.

That is the difference between countries who have Dignity . why our army did not respond , Govt should asked them, People of Pakistan should ask them , bring them into courts but i doubt they will cause they are above the LAW .
and again , please put on your glasses while reading, American choppers first fired on our post , if we take down those choppers that was self-defense act , not aggressiveness .. hope you are not that dumb to understand this simple thing .
Mistakes happens, but they keep firing at post killing our soldiers for more than 30 mins, and you are telling me that they did not get any radio message that its Friendly fire ? if it was a Air strike that will be understandable, but they hit it with attack choppers , and keep it until they kill every single one of them .. you does have some issues understanding simple things .

Bhai take a deep breath and think again. With its economy controlled by the jews and owing China a trillion dollars in bonds do you think US is going to do anything in the open against them. You cannot compare apples and oranges. These countries are the apples of US eyes and we are not worth more than an orange pip to thewm except when it matters. Live with it and gain from it to survive. This is the reality not the fantasy world of "we are all equal." Instead "some of us are more equal than others".

at first you are talking about Prophet and he been your guide , than why not learn from him ? he was not a coward and definitely never sell his people no matter how big the threat was , Muslims were no where near compare to them two power surrounding them the Persians and Byzantines , and yet the Muslims take a stand against them, so should i tell you from the basic, battle of Badr , 300 against 1000, heavily armed and with horses and camel ? and how about uhud ? 1000 against 4000 ? what about battle of Yarmouk ? to win a battle you need a win and proper strategy , but cowards like you will rather die in their beds like a Vessel .at least i talk about living with Dignity .

Well I beg to differ with you. have you seen the screen shots of the Goodrich pod and there is nothing in China that can even reeach close to it in clarity. Ask any of the PAF buffs that are here and they will testify to it. Given certain favourable circumstances yes J10 may well take out a 16 but at what ratio. i think it may well be 2-3 /1. But lets ask someone who is current /exPAF to elaborate.

sure , tag some Chinese members and see what they have to say about your claims ..why not experts from Chinese Air force ? or unless you think PAF experts are also better than their Chinese counter parts ? made in China is not always , 2 number sir ... China is far advance than you think off ..

All I will say to you is you have had too much of Mastan Khan and there is logic behind getting 8 subs if it will give you the capability of building 4 in house. The capability transfer in itself is worth an arm and a leg . But you guys think the Chinese Government is out there to give you jkhairaat. You just walk in ask and it is given. You do remember that the Chinese at one time did not allow you access on to on of their subs. Sams. How do you know we dont have HQ9 when a previous ACM has already said that we do. The fact still remains that SAMs alone are not the answer and PAF HAS EVALUATED ITS STRATEGY AND THINKS IT WILL STILL NEED PLANES FOR ITS DEFENCE. The frigates will come and I need you to understand that defence deals do not happen overnight and neither do technoical specifications. We have been hearing about the Subs deal since 2012 and it has materialized in the end of 2015. If you have the money then by all means go for frigates as well, but if it is a case of either or I will always go for Subs.

well Mastan sahab can agree or disagree with me or you, its his right .. and he a American so freedom of speech is important for him , with 4 Subs 3 build in China and 1 build in Pakistan can work to, look at Arabs, they have Cash and buy anything thrown at them, but they are using their money wisely , just like Pakistan, look at Egypt, and their Army .compare it with Pakistan, we have secured KSA more than Egypt did yet we did not negotiate with KSA on anything , its all about think big .. yeah ACM has said we have HQ-9 , but only 3 batteries ... its enough ? i doubt that ..
did we order more ? i doubt that ... yeah we need Fighters and this what i am talking about we need another 4+ generation fighter , cause both F-7PG and Mirage both are aging and will be retired, what will we have than ? only 150 JF's and 100 F-16 by 2025 ? cause j-31 is nowhere near in our sights ... by 2025, IAF will have 300+ su-30 , and 50+ rafale and their fleet of Mig-29K and M2k's .. you got any idea to counter them ? forget about in real time battle, you cant even counter that in your fantasies ..
we dont have money for frigate , but why ? because we are buying 8 subs .. which can easily be break into two Parts .. 4 subs with 4 Frigates , and than again 4 subs with 4 frigates will cost the same but keep your surface capability and under water capabilities at same levels .

If the rafale is such a juicy buy why are the Indians squeeling like stuck pigs at the sight of 8 16s. They are both 4+ generation planes and I stand by my earlier statement PAF with bl52s will give the rafale a run for its money. Where in my posts have I sung the praises of the Army or Air force. It is only as good as the people are. If you are corrupt then why blame your forces if they are corrupt. However, they are the single most organized, educated and patriotic enbtity around and perhaps still much more patriotic than you and me.The Nukes are both a blessing and a curse. But tell me what will happen to this region if you use the Nukes.Even if you were able to annihilate India into dust what will happen to the region? have you even thought about it. All the f16s do is raise your nuclear threshold higher and give you that much more time to seek peace. The other aspect to it is that if it is just Nukes protecting you then why bother with modernization, Arm 20 Shaheens towards india and rest assured of peace.

they are crying because that's what they are good at .. crying , their IAF does not seems to care for 8 F-16's even if you buy 36 F-16 V this wont do anything .. you think US will give you that ? lots of members here talking about a follow up order of remaining 10 F-shola , you think they will give you that ? lets assume they did, but how long it will take ? they will make sure you and your PAF will stuck with them, by 2020 and get only odd 18 F-16's so you cant go and look for other options ..just look how they play you on Ah-Z1 deal, they rejected it first and later when they see Pakistan is looking for Chinese and Russians for attack heli's they suddenly , out of nowhere accept the deal , that cost you more than if you buy Chinese Z-10's or Russian ... but again i know what you will say, China ka maal 2 number right ? lol
I am not Blind patriotic like you, or any other stupid poster here , nor i have to match my patriotism with Generals who's son's and daughters live in US and Australia .. nor i am corrupt , i never steal tax , electricity , gas or break any law .
no one is talking about using Nukes, but my point was Nukes are the only factor that keeps your enemy at bay, not your Godly F-16's or immortal Generals .

This once again is not begging but a process of negotiations. There is no begging form Pakistan. Rather a solution which suits the PAF and the US best. It is a win win situation. You are getting good fighters at subsidized rates and they are getting your co operation in Afghanistan which is vital for both countries. If the US were to vacate Afghanistan tomorrow what do you think will happen to Pakistan. But you havent thought this one through have you.

negotiation happen between equal Partners and we are not equals as per you right ? they are humiliating us , giving us aid and weapons but their Generals and Congressmen keep blaming Pakistan and our army for every mess they created in region .. and in return we just have to stand like a student who in in punishment by a teacher . and we are not getting any good fighter because we never approach or even try .. if you work on diplomacy with Russian , than wasting time with Americans , you might see 1-2 sqs of su-35 flying in PAF by now ..
i did thought what will happen when and if US leave, and i know ( i am damn sure ) they wont leave Afghanistan unless ISIS gains its ground in Afghanistan, and leave Pakistan between India , TTP , AFghan Taliban and ISIS .. and after all this still you want to polish the boots of US , you are most welcome .

And why ever not. You dont understand the logic behind US policies do you? You have no concept of the great game do you~? The problem is not what they are calling you as they have to find scapegoats for their own failures. On a state level they have openly appreciated your role although by right they have asked you to fulfill what they think will dserve their interests . You on the other hand have poorly projected your narrative and perhaps inspite of your please otherwise the Governement has stuck to its own agenda. As to ISIS we are responsible for the security of our own borders, so if ISIS/ Daesh/other erntities come in to Pakistan and we let them roam around without checking them then it is not ythe US fault it is the fault of our political/ military establishment. Bhai what we have to look after is pakistan and not Afghanistan. As I have said there is a great game being played and like every one else we are trying to survive in a very hostile and difficult environm,ent. It is not ideal but our choices are very few and it is very much a fight for our survival. We will win or lose irrespective of what XY or Z wants depending on our own capabilities to exploit the situation to our advantage aand get the best possible out come from it. It is not ideal but this is how it is. The F16s suit us now, when our job is done just like the US will move on so will we.

i know about the great game, that is why i am saying cut of ties with US . and what you are talking about is , " Aankhon dekhe makhi niglana " , you know your country security is at risk and yet you are up to beg US . why not make new alliance, or why not just surrender your Nukes to US and made a deal with them ? like Japs did ..
there are things that we can do, but thing is we don't want to ..
meri baala se Saare afghanio's ko goli maar do, all i care is for Pakistan people and its blood .. and we have spilled a lot already . because of US .
F-16 does suites us, but not at cost of Pakistan .. i will keep my stand .we should walk away from US

 

[araz]

"rockstar08, post: 8160861, member: 149533"]@araz
Rockstar 08

sadqe jao mai apki innocence pe janab . you are lecturing me on Prophet and Islam and yet you are talking like you are afraid to US more than Allah ? since when in History Prophet let his followers died a Haram Maut ? and did nothing ? a allied tribe caravan was attack that initiated the conquest of Mecca and end of Sulah hudabiya . i can humiliate you anytime when it comes to Islam , but i am trying to keep it civil ..
and i don't need to learn Islam from a person who can;t see the basics of Islam . Mashallah .
the question is people like you are also brainwashed to the deepest point of your empty brains . that we can't do anything if US take its hands off .. keep believing that, i am assuming your half of the family is already US national and you are lecturing me on Patriotism lol
Ah so you do know a bit of islamic history. I ama bit more pragmaticthan you. When you take decisions that affect the whole nation you dont act rashly. Firstly, I take you back to the point which I asked . Did the Prophet SAW not negotiate from a position of power in Sulaha e hudaibiyya or not? What was his attitude towards Banu Nadheer and banu Qainu qaa. Did they not get evicted when they could very easily have been killed. So why. You talk of knowing islamic history.At the time of fathe macca was there not a list of people who were to be executed on sight.Did half of them still not get spared. Or should i start taking names. What about the Munafeqeen of madina. Whom did the Prophet SAW kill inspite of being in power? You guys just read but never contemplate. this is why we have people like you with no understanding purporting your knowledge.



again , you have become a self sufficient country , just like we did when it comes to Sanctions , when US stop F-16's we come up with JF-17 .. just like that if our exports did not reach to US does not mean we cant send it to other countries . we are not going on war with US but cutting off diplomatic ties . there is a difference if you have comprehension issues than i cant teach you ABCD here ..
and i am glad that Pakistan is ruled by such people who will sell their Mother and sister to these American to get Dollar and F-16's .. you are no different to such people . at least i talk about respect and Dignity .and you talk like a vessel .
Self sufficient my foot. You have seen the post of Bilal Khan777 who is Ex PAF. He has just told you that vital support steel for the JFT comes from outside. He asked somebody whether it was ever shown that PAF was milling the parts or getting kits to assmeble things with. I dont deny that JFT is a huge step for PAF and pakistan but if you think we are self sufficient just because we have started assembling 58% of a fightewr then you have to do some soul searching. .As to your delusions regarding sending your exports else where, try doing that with a US embargo. or have you not seen what has happened to Russia and its economy after an embargo. Mairay Bhai have a talk with an exporter sometimes and finsd out how much time it takes to establish a market and build contacts. You say we are not going to wwar just cuutting off diplomatic relations . SubhanAllah , I dont even know whether to laugh or cry at your logic. And then you are trying to teach me how to comprehend a situation. Allahu Akbar!!! Bhai@ taimi khan,@Fatman 17@Web master this brilliant mind is ready to take my position as A think tank.!!! I can leave knowing that you have a good replacement as he says he knows more than me. Bhai ask some Ex PAF why they are so happy to sell their mothers and sisters to the US and buy F16s and tell me what they sa=y, if you come back that is!!



That is the difference between countries who have Dignity . why our army did not respond , Govt should asked them, People of Pakistan should ask them , bring them into courts but i doubt they will cause they are above the LAW .
and again , please put on your glasses while reading, American choppers first fired on our post , if we take down those choppers that was self-defense act , not aggressiveness .. hope you are not that dumb to understand this simple thing .
Mistakes happens, but they keep firing at post killing our soldiers for more than 30 mins, and you are telling me that they did not get any radio message that its Friendly fire ? if it was a Air strike that will be understandable, but they hit it with attack choppers , and keep it until they kill every single one of them .. you does have some issues understanding simple things .
Arey mairay Bhai. Do you think those choppers were not supported or you have not read the report from PAF . You have very conveniently forgotten about the the backup f18s that were there. You take their choppers down they take your f16s down and some more, what do you do next, Nuke the Afghan US base? You have to take things in context. This wasa mishap, a case of mistaken identity, There were certain issues with military personnel who were not sober on the US side but at the end of the day when did the US not accept that it was a mishap. The problem was with an apology which you did recieve although much later than it should have come. At least have the courtesy to acknowledge the PA for taking a stand over the issue.


at first you are talking about Prophet and he been your guide , than why not learn from him ? he was not a coward and definitely never sell his people no matter how big the threat was , Muslims were no where near compare to them two power surrounding them the Persians and Byzantines , and yet the Muslims take a stand against them, so should i tell you from the basic, battle of Badr , 300 against 1000, heavily armed and with horses and camel ? and how about uhud ? 1000 against 4000 ? what about battle of Yarmouk ? to win a battle you need a win and proper strategy , but cowards like you will rather die in their beds like a Vessel .at least i talk about living with Dignity .
No my HaadiSAW was not a coward, but he also has shown you through out his life that if there are 2 routes to take He SAW will always persue peace. This is my understanding of the situation. Look at what happened at khaibar,how many did we kill there ? How many did we evict from Khaibar? You understand mnumbers---Hurray!! But are you foolish enough to compare those muslims with the muslims of the state of Pakistan. No deen No iman, No leadership. And you compare them with the Sahaba who were trained and tutored by rasool Allah SAW aand who led them. You say towin a battle one "needs a win and proper strategy". And your strategy is to start a war in response to a mistake. Subhan Allah!! I will not respond to personal insults so let us leave the discussion of who is a coward to one who can best judge amongst us. By the way there were people even in the time of Rasool AllahSAW regarding whom he asked that even if there are two people they should noy be made in charge of those two. You wonder why????? And I now see the logic of it looking at your posts


sure , tag some Chinese members and see what they have to say about your claims ..why not experts from Chinese Air force ? or unless you think PAF experts are also better than their Chinese counter parts ? made in China is not always , 2 number sir ... China is far advance than you think off ..
And why not PAF? What good will the Chinese add to what is a matter concenring the Goodrich pod. Perhaps @Oscar or @Taim Khan Or @Bilal Khan 777 will be more relevant. Let us see what they have to say.



well Mastan sahab can agree or disagree with me or you, its his right .. and he a American so freedom of speech is important for him , with 4 Subs 3 build in China and 1 build in Pakistan can work to, look at Arabs, they have Cash and buy anything thrown at them, but they are using their money wisely , just like Pakistan, look at Egypt, and their Army .compare it with Pakistan, we have secured KSA more than Egypt did yet we did not negotiate with KSA on anything , its all about think big .. yeah ACM has said we have HQ-9 , but only 3 batteries ... its enough ? i doubt that ..
Subhan Allah!!! I am dumb founded! I have no answer to the stupidity of these lines. Firstly you think that the Chinese will just hand over technology when you buy 4 subs. Secondly you think PN is just buying for the fun of it and they dont have any sense. Ands most hilariously you think the Arabs buy with sense. You quote Egypt which is buying with money granted to it by Saudi Arabia. How do you know what we negotiated with Saudis and what we or for that matter the Egyptians have had to do for the money that they secured? Procurements from foreign countries are done on a need basis not on the whims of an arm chair general like you or me. So first come out with specifics of HQ9s , the cost of it and tell me how many we need and what element of cover will they provide you. As I mentioned the LRSAM cover did not protect Syria, how do you think it will protect you. What is the kill ratio of HQ9? You dont know do you and neither will you ansswer except "we need More". For your information the money for the szubs has been dverted towards the acquisition of the Nuclear reactors which is why things have gone quiet on that front as well.

did we order more ? i doubt that ... yeah we need Fighters and this what i am talking about we need another 4+ generation fighter , cause both F-7PG and Mirage both are aging and will be retired, what will we have than ? only 150 JF's and 100 F-16 by 2025 ? cause j-31 is nowhere near in our sights ... by 2025, IAF will have 300+ su-30 , and 50+ rafale and their fleet of Mig-29K and M2k's .. you got any idea to counter them ? forget about in real time battle, you cant even counter that in your fantasies ..
we dont have money for frigate , but why ? because we are buying 8 subs .. which can easily be break into two Parts .. 4 subs with 4 Frigates , and than again 4 subs with 4 frigates will cost the same but keep your surface capability and under water capabilities at same levels .
Right!! So tell me where is the money going to come from for these acquisitions which you want to acquire. In the case of the 16s they are partly subsidized by the FMS funds . By the time we acquire them the rest may also be subsidized. China may well give you a soft loan but it needs to be paid back. You have just read that upto 70% of our budget will go inb loan repayment. How is that a feasible situation. Top it all off , you take on a panga with the US and you wont get kicked in the goolies for that ? Indians did not attack us in 2002 when we had non upgraded f16s and some legacy fighters. Do you think they are going to take a risk now when most of our fleet in 2020 will be BVR capable and we will be working a network centric environment. PLEASE Have some mercy on your intellect!!!!



they are crying because that's what they are good at .. crying , their IAF does not seems to care for 8 F-16's even if you buy 36 F-16 V this wont do anything .. you think US will give you that ? lots of members here talking about a follow up order of remaining 10 F-shola , you think they will give you that ? lets assume they did, but how long it will take ? they will make sure you and your PAF will stuck with them, by 2020 and get only odd 18 F-16's so you cant go and look for other options ..just look how they play you on Ah-Z1 deal, they rejected it first and later when they see Pakistan is looking for Chinese and Russians for attack heli's they suddenly , out of nowhere accept the deal , that cost you more than if you buy Chinese Z-10's or Russian ... but again i know what you will say, China ka maal 2 number right ? lol
I am not Blind patriotic like you, or any other stupid poster here , nor i have to match my patriotism with Generals who's son's and daughters live in US and Australia .. nor i am corrupt , i never steal tax , electricity , gas or break any law .
no one is talking about using Nukes, but my point was Nukes are the only factor that keeps your enemy at bay, not your Godly F-16's or immortal Generals .
The US needs to keep lockmart afloat as well. The 16s are technology we own so there is very little that they now have to hide. Why do you think they will not give it to us. The other factor you have ommited from my post is the factor of getting esecond hand planes for MLU. We will get them only if we buy some new ones which is one of the reasons why we are buying these planes. They have played you just like any other company will play you. Pay the cash get the commodity. No cash No commodity. The reason we are having problems with AH1Zs was we could not afford the price. So we had to find the money. Your lovely Z10s have had issues with heating and have now been returned to China and a lot of changes are demanded whoich I am sure will be carried out by the Chinese. Once the product is mature it will be bought.

negotiation happen between equal Partners and we are not equals as per you right ? they are humiliating us , giving us aid and weapons but their Generals and Congressmen keep blaming Pakistan and our army for every mess they created in region .. and in return we just have to stand like a student who in in punishment by a teacher . and we are not getting any good fighter because we never approach or even try .. if you work on diplomacy with Russian , than wasting time with Americans , you might see 1-2 sqs of su-35 flying in PAF by now ..
i did thought what will happen when and if US leave, and i know ( i am damn sure ) they wont leave Afghanistan unless ISIS gains its ground in Afghanistan, and leave Pakistan between India , TTP , AFghan Taliban and ISIS .. and after all this still you want to polish the boots of US , you are most welcome .
Wrong even two unequal partners still negotiate!!! It is a matter of exerting influence based on your buying power or something else you bring to the table. We have our own value which is important to US which is why it deals with us. We know it and they know it . You Obviously dont which is a case of being uninformed. I cnat help it if you think you know everything when you blatantly dont. You talk about "other fighters". I have along wit hother people spoken about why this is the wrong time to get other fighters of the same generation. We are on the verge of change of generation. If you buy now , it will be a part of your inventory for another 30yrs. Then 5 yrs down the line 5th generation fighters will make an entry into the arena but you wont have the funds to buy them as you have spent most of them buying, and setting up infrastructure and training your pilots on their use. Looking at the financial situation of PAF/GOP you wont be able to afford another fighter if you make a big buy now. You obviously dont know that PAF has recently had a meeting with PLAAF regarding its next generation offers and expectations. talks are already a foot, but you want to go out and get fighters which add nothing more than numbers to our inventory

i know about the great game, that is why i am saying cut of ties with US . and what you are talking about is , " Aankhon dekhe makhi niglana " , you know your country security is at risk and yet you are up to beg US . why not make new alliance, or why not just surrender your Nukes to US and made a deal with them ? like Japs did ..
there are things that we can do, but thing is we don't want to ..
meri baala se Saare afghanio's ko goli maar do, all i care is for Pakistan people and its blood .. and we have spilled a lot already . because of US .
F-16 does suites us, but not at cost of Pakistan .. i will keep my stand .we should walk away from US
Good that you know of the great game.You also know of the addage" Keep your friends close and enemies closer". Unfortunately in todays world we no longer have friends but common vested interests. If you think China is helping you just because China Loves pakistan , then you have another thing coming. You negotiate with China and offer themn deals which appeals to them they agree, What is the difference between doing that and dealing with US. I dont want to say it any more openly on an internet forum, but a lot of that which goes on at state level is unknown to most people so one has to have a bit of faith in our politicians and the army( much as I hate myself for saying it). F16s are the best thing you can get at this time and there is nothing better and more economical for us which is why we are going for it. You dont like it complain to the ACM .
A

 

[rockstar08]

Ah so you do know a bit of islamic history. I ama bit more pragmaticthan you. When you take decisions that affect the whole nation you dont act rashly. Firstly, I take you back to the point which I asked . Did the Prophet SAW not negotiate from a position of power in Sulaha e hudaibiyya or not? What was his attitude towards Banu Nadheer and banu Qainu qaa. Did they not get evicted when they could very easily have been killed. So why. You talk of knowing islamic history.At the time of fathe macca was there not a list of people who were to be executed on sight.Did half of them still not get spared. Or should i start taking names. What about the Munafeqeen of madina. Whom did the Prophet SAW kill inspite of being in power? You guys just read but never contemplate. this is why we have people like you with no understanding purporting your knowledge.

well i know better than you, and i can see that from your post, you are circling around on rants and missing all the questions i raised, so i take it a face saving nothing more .
No , Prophet did not done Sulah-e-Hudabia from the position of Power, he was forced to accept ,when he wants to go for Hajj, and Quresh send its Calvary as i say, you need to learn more kid before making your personal opinion and present as Fatwa's . remember banu Qureza ? i am sure you done .. lets leave the religious talk cause i know you will be ignoring and keeping your rants ..

Self sufficient my foot. You have seen the post of Bilal Khan777 who is Ex PAF. He has just told you that vital support steel for the JFT comes from outside. He asked somebody whether it was ever shown that PAF was milling the parts or getting kits to assmeble things with. I dont deny that JFT is a huge step for PAF and pakistan but if you think we are self sufficient just because we have started assembling 58% of a fightewr then you have to do some soul searching. .As to your delusions regarding sending your exports else where, try doing that with a US embargo. or have you not seen what has happened to Russia and its economy after an embargo. Mairay Bhai have a talk with an exporter sometimes and finsd out how much time it takes to establish a market and build contacts. You say we are not going to wwar just cuutting off diplomatic relations . SubhanAllah , I dont even know whether to laugh or cry at your logic. And then you are trying to teach me how to comprehend a situation. Allahu Akbar!!! Bhai@ taimi khan,@Fatman 17@Web master this brilliant mind is ready to take my position as A think tank.!!! I can leave knowing that you have a good replacement as he says he knows more than me. Bhai ask some Ex PAF why they are so happy to sell their mothers and sisters to the US and buy F16s and tell me what they sa=y, if you come back that is!!

and who is bilal khan ? i didn't know Project director of JF is among us lol , and what if we are exporting it ? you think just because you cut of diplomatic ties with US you can do anything ? i feel pity on your intelligence , assuming you are kid recently playing COD .. nothing more .
self sufficiency does not mean that you do everything yourself, it means you make new alliance , you have China , EU and Russian to do business with , but you think US is God and cant do anything without them .
you don't have to call other retards like you here, cause one is enough for me to deal with ..
i sh!t on to be TT here lol , i consider this a insult to be TT on a forum where any stupid can be one ..
LOL i wont ask them why they are selling their women, cause selling women is part of many Ethnicity in Pakistan which are in number in armed forces ..

Arey mairay Bhai. Do you think those choppers were not supported or you have not read the report from PAF . You have very conveniently forgotten about the the backup f18s that were there. You take their choppers down they take your f16s down and some more, what do you do next, Nuke the Afghan US base? You have to take things in context. This wasa mishap, a case of mistaken identity, There were certain issues with military personnel who were not sober on the US side but at the end of the day when did the US not accept that it was a mishap. The problem was with an apology which you did recieve although much later than it should have come. At least have the courtesy to acknowledge the PA for taking a stand over the issue.

I am not your bhai .. The back up of F-18's were at the time of OBL raid .. you gotta be kidding me ?. i have talked to a person who live in that area , and what he told me is something i cant share here ..Salala and OBL raid are two different raids.. and why would they take our F-16's? when they are breaching our air space and shooting on our Soldiers Post ? do you a iota of sense ? ? and now you are exaggerating my point . i did not say nuke them but you can take down choppers easily without the situation been escalated .. cause they were in hostile territory , they knew the consequences can be like that if they are attacking a Army post . use some brain if you have ..

No my HaadiSAW was not a coward, but he also has shown you through out his life that if there are 2 routes to take He SAW will always persue peace. This is my understanding of the situation. Look at what happened at khaibar,how many did we kill there ? How many did we evict from Khaibar? You understand mnumbers---Hurray!! But are you foolish enough to compare those muslims with the muslims of the state of Pakistan. No deen No iman, No leadership. And you compare them with the Sahaba who were trained and tutored by rasool Allah SAW aand who led them. You say towin a battle one "needs a win and proper strategy". And your strategy is to start a war in response to a mistake. Subhan Allah!! I will not respond to personal insults so let us leave the discussion of who is a coward to one who can best judge amongst us. By the way there were people even in the time of Rasool AllahSAW regarding whom he asked that even if there are two people they should noy be made in charge of those two. You wonder why????? And I now see the logic of it looking at your posts

but you are talking like a coward .. he shown us to use diplomacy but not on the price of his followers been killed , again i give you example how meccans loot a caravan that leads to conquest of mecca , but your basic IQ skills are lesser than a retard person ... or i can write in Urdu for you ..
its called strategy , in Khaiber or any battle you take .. examine and use it for study , they use battle stretagies , i wonder if people back than are like you , and get heart attack when they the numbers of Byzantine when battles of Yarmouk happen ..those Muslims are not sent down from heaven or have drink extra Milo to have Superman power, they were humans like you and me , they die with they get cut or pierce by an arrow .
and people like you also exists in Prophets times called " Abu jahl " and Sufiyan , who always look to create a fitna , and among battles lots of muslims runs away that might be your ancestors not mine .
i am not surprised people like you live a long life, because cowards do have long life ..

Subhan Allah!!! I am dumb founded! I have no answer to the stupidity of these lines. Firstly you think that the Chinese will just hand over technology when you buy 4 subs. Secondly you think PN is just buying for the fun of it and they dont have any sense. Ands most hilariously you think the Arabs buy with sense. You quote Egypt which is buying with money granted to it by Saudi Arabia. How do you know what we negotiated with Saudis and what we or for that matter the Egyptians have had to do for the money that they secured? Procurements from foreign countries are done on a need basis not on the whims of an arm chair general like you or me. So first come out with specifics of HQ9s , the cost of it and tell me how many we need and what element of cover will they provide you. As I mentioned the LRSAM cover did not protect Syria, how do you think it will protect you. What is the kill ratio of HQ9? You dont know do you and neither will you ansswer except "we need More". For your information the money for the szubs has been dverted towards the acquisition of the Nuclear reactors which is why things have gone quiet on that front as well.

you think 4 subs order is small one ? we have experience in Sub building Augusta 90B ? remember ? dude you are amusing me with your stupidity. i nnever claim they are buying these for Fun , all i am saying they can break the deal into 2 parts, 4 subs + 4 Frigates , than again 4 subs and 4 frigates .. its called common sense which isn;t very common these days, and you are living prove of that .
you are kidding me right ? what about SPADA ? FM-90 ? do they have 101% kill ratio ? why you buy them ? F-16 ? BM , CM do they have 200% hit ratio ? next time try not to post while drink desi Tharraa .. no technology is 100% ratio , but still people buy to protect the land .. can you say for sure , that 1 F-16 can win against 1 Su-30 MKI for 100% surety ? stop embarrassing yourself . Indians who read your post will die laughing ..or any profession .
you buy SAMS to cover as much ground as Possible, to counter big threats like IAF .

Right!! So tell me where is the money going to come from for these acquisitions which you want to acquire. In the case of the 16s they are partly subsidized by the FMS funds . By the time we acquire them the rest may also be subsidized. China may well give you a soft loan but it needs to be paid back. You have just read that upto 70% of our budget will go inb loan repayment. How is that a feasible situation. Top it all off , you take on a panga with the US and you wont get kicked in the goolies for that ? Indians did not attack us in 2002 when we had non upgraded f16s and some legacy fighters. Do you think they are going to take a risk now when most of our fleet in 2020 will be BVR capable and we will be working a network centric environment. PLEASE Have some mercy on your intellect!!!!

yeah we have to pay back to China but at least we dont have to " DO more " for china, give their intelligence agency more bases, hearing comments like our army is supporting terrorism ,or people like Ramond davis easily slipping away, and yet your ally give shelter to a traitor like HH , and who lives and admired there . yet you are ready to lick the boots of US, i am assuming you are a Punjabi .. cause i can expect this from them ..
I told you this before, and again, 2002 or 2008 , India did not attack you only because you got Nukes nukes, Period . no matter what you think , or your other super duper TT's but truth is that nukes are the only thing keeping your enemy at bay .. and you know how many BVR capable fighter IAF will have ? lol
300+/- Su-30 is more than enough .. let alone M2k's and Rafale .. if you think with some off 150 JF and 100 F-16's you can defend your Air space against a Enemy that big, than you are deluded sir , go and take a shower and come out of this fanboy fantasy , and stop watching Youtube Video haha ..
have some mercy on yourself , not me

Wrong even two unequal partners still negotiate!!! It is a matter of exerting influence based on your buying power or something else you bring to the table. We have our own value which is important to US which is why it deals with us. We know it and they know it . You Obviously dont which is a case of being uninformed. I cnat help it if you think you know everything when you blatantly dont. You talk about "other fighters". I have along wit hother people spoken about why this is the wrong time to get other fighters of the same generation. We are on the verge of change of generation. If you buy now , it will be a part of your inventory for another 30yrs. Then 5 yrs down the line 5th generation fighters will make an entry into the arena but you wont have the funds to buy them as you have spent most of them buying, and setting up infrastructure and training your pilots on their use. Looking at the financial situation of PAF/GOP you wont be able to afford another fighter if you make a big buy now. You obviously dont know that PAF has recently had a meeting with PLAAF regarding its next generation offers and expectations. talks are already a foot, but you want to go out and get fighters which add nothing more than numbers to our inventory

you don't understand your own point, buy used and outdated fighters , what after 10 years ? you will be stuck with 150 JF and 100 F-16 ? what else ? do you have any 5th Gen on your list ? you are talking like a kid , who see a 5th gen plane on a shop and start saving up money to buy it next month , now call your TT's and ask them about 5th gen fighters specially J-31 and how much time it will take to fly ..
use some sense if you have any ..

Good that you know of the great game.You also know of the addage" Keep your friends close and enemies closer". Unfortunately in todays world we no longer have friends but common vested interests. If you think China is helping you just because China Loves pakistan , then you have another thing coming. You negotiate with China and offer themn deals which appeals to them they agree, What is the difference between doing that and dealing with US. I dont want to say it any more openly on an internet forum, but a lot of that which goes on at state level is unknown to most people so one has to have a bit of faith in our politicians and the army( much as I hate myself for saying it). F16s are the best thing you can get at this time and there is nothing better and more economical for us which is why we are going for it. You dont like it complain to the ACM .

yeah we Islam ka Qilla and our final battle will be with Israel right ?what else BS you want write here?
we have no friends, we cant make any , we cant buy any weapons , we are isolated, blah blah blah ..man you sounds like a mentally retarded person ..
I am talking about making new alliance, urdu mai " mai naye dost banane ki baat ker raha hun " , good that State listen to you , and i am not surprised why they are making such chawal decisions .
faith ? so just faith can win you battles ? why buying F-16's ? buy a sword and shout Allah ho akber , your enemies will surrender lol ,F-16 maybe the best thing for us, but not a necessary that we have to sell our respect to buy 8 Fighters which you and i both don't know will be able to fly in times of war .. whenever US want they can strangle you with sanctions and yet you want to do this, its called suicidal ..
complain to ACM ? lol

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Please stop worshiping F-16 like a God .. there wont be a bit of concern for your enemy that is India .. they have 250+ Su-30mki , and all set to buy 36 Rafale that outmatched your entire fleet .. 8 F-shola will do nothing ..
and as for my concern, they are not my concern its i know what will happen .. mark my words, US is waiting for ISIS to set ground in Afghanistan , once they let ISIS take over, they will leave the region , leaving Pakistan with all three Terrorist Organization to deal with .. they are asking us to Target Afghan Taliban and make enemies with them, once ISIS and TTP join hands, we will have massive Insurgency at our door steps ..
Every country look for its national interest except for Pakistan .. we praise our Army and ISI , and yet they are slowly Poisoning the roots of Pakistan .

8 F-16s are just the beginning honestly; its the start of much more defense sales to Pakistan.

 

[rockstar08]

8 F-16s are just the beginning honestly; its the start of much more defense sales to Pakistan.

yeah the follow up order will be on 10 more , completing a Sqs .. but US will drag you to buy these 18 F-16 , the delivery will mark till 2020 ... so by 2020 , you will get only 18 nothing more .

 

[SQ8]

@araz
When should I not bring the prophetSAW into it? I will bring the ProphetSAW into any argument that I can as he is my guide. I have just given you an example of when He SAW negotiated from a relative position of power and you ignored my point altogether. How wise? So sit for another 5 years and get no apology from the president. Sometimes in STATE CRAFT IT IS NECESSARY TO GIVE FACE TO PEOPLE. Or you dont remember how the Prophet granted a valey full of camels to hazrat Abu Sufiyyan(perhaps you dont know your islamic history). If you dont tell me and I will remind you.A comparison between pakistan and US and their relative responses is precisely the point which i am trying to convey to you and you are playing it back to me!!SubhanAllah. This is precisely the point. They would not and in the process you will get mauled.

sadqe jao mai apki innocence pe janab . you are lecturing me on Prophet and Islam and yet you are talking like you are afraid to US more than Allah ? since when in History Prophet let his followers died a Haram Maut ? and did nothing ? a allied tribe caravan was attack that initiated the conquest of Mecca and end of Sulah hudabiya . i can humiliate you anytime when it comes to Islam , but i am trying to keep it civil ..
and i don't need to learn Islam from a person who can;t see the basics of Islam . Mashallah .
the question is people like you are also brainwashed to the deepest point of your empty brains . that we can't do anything if US take its hands off .. keep believing that, i am assuming your half of the family is already US national and you are lecturing me on Patriotism lol

That is not the fault of US or Iran but the fault of your own politicians., The fact remains that 80% of your exports go to US and a strangle on that will send you into the dark ages in no timeas you wont be bale to support your energy bills or repay your loans. You know I am really glad you are not the leader of Pakistan. Otherwise we would be even more doomed.

again , you have become a self sufficient country , just like we did when it comes to Sanctions , when US stop F-16's we come up with JF-17 .. just like that if our exports did not reach to US does not mean we cant send it to other countries . we are not going on war with US but cutting off diplomatic ties . there is a difference if you have comprehension issues than i cant teach you ABCD here ..
and i am glad that Pakistan is ruled by such people who will sell their Mother and sister to these American to get Dollar and F-16's .. you are no different to such people . at least i talk about respect and Dignity .and you talk like a vessel .

Why do you think this whole game is being played? Why are your nukes so important to the US that everytime they want to put pressure on you they will tell the world how your nukes are at risk. So you may call it whatever you like I read it my way and I am entitled to it. As yto your assumptions of your soldiers dying in defence of your country, why do you think your army did not respond? And what do you think would have happened if you had ? It would just have been painted as an agressive episode from Pakistan and the US would have achieved its designs of agressive intents on pakistan. You would much live a short life but dying a death of stupidity is not dying it would hacve been a political suicide. I dont know what you are on but really your view point is taking us to very disasterous conclusions. You need to understand the difference between defence in case of sustained agression rather than a case of mistaken identity which incidentally has happened with both US and UK soldiers in the Afghan war. Mistakes happen dont make it worse.

That is the difference between countries who have Dignity . why our army did not respond , Govt should asked them, People of Pakistan should ask them , bring them into courts but i doubt they will cause they are above the LAW .
and again , please put on your glasses while reading, American choppers first fired on our post , if we take down those choppers that was self-defense act , not aggressiveness .. hope you are not that dumb to understand this simple thing .
Mistakes happens, but they keep firing at post killing our soldiers for more than 30 mins, and you are telling me that they did not get any radio message that its Friendly fire ? if it was a Air strike that will be understandable, but they hit it with attack choppers , and keep it until they kill every single one of them .. you does have some issues understanding simple things .

Bhai take a deep breath and think again. With its economy controlled by the jews and owing China a trillion dollars in bonds do you think US is going to do anything in the open against them. You cannot compare apples and oranges. These countries are the apples of US eyes and we are not worth more than an orange pip to thewm except when it matters. Live with it and gain from it to survive. This is the reality not the fantasy world of "we are all equal." Instead "some of us are more equal than others".

at first you are talking about Prophet and he been your guide , than why not learn from him ? he was not a coward and definitely never sell his people no matter how big the threat was , Muslims were no where near compare to them two power surrounding them the Persians and Byzantines , and yet the Muslims take a stand against them, so should i tell you from the basic, battle of Badr , 300 against 1000, heavily armed and with horses and camel ? and how about uhud ? 1000 against 4000 ? what about battle of Yarmouk ? to win a battle you need a win and proper strategy , but cowards like you will rather die in their beds like a Vessel .at least i talk about living with Dignity .

Well I beg to differ with you. have you seen the screen shots of the Goodrich pod and there is nothing in China that can even reeach close to it in clarity. Ask any of the PAF buffs that are here and they will testify to it. Given certain favourable circumstances yes J10 may well take out a 16 but at what ratio. i think it may well be 2-3 /1. But lets ask someone who is current /exPAF to elaborate.

sure , tag some Chinese members and see what they have to say about your claims ..why not experts from Chinese Air force ? or unless you think PAF experts are also better than their Chinese counter parts ? made in China is not always , 2 number sir ... China is far advance than you think off ..

All I will say to you is you have had too much of Mastan Khan and there is logic behind getting 8 subs if it will give you the capability of building 4 in house. The capability transfer in itself is worth an arm and a leg . But you guys think the Chinese Government is out there to give you jkhairaat. You just walk in ask and it is given. You do remember that the Chinese at one time did not allow you access on to on of their subs. Sams. How do you know we dont have HQ9 when a previous ACM has already said that we do. The fact still remains that SAMs alone are not the answer and PAF HAS EVALUATED ITS STRATEGY AND THINKS IT WILL STILL NEED PLANES FOR ITS DEFENCE. The frigates will come and I need you to understand that defence deals do not happen overnight and neither do technoical specifications. We have been hearing about the Subs deal since 2012 and it has materialized in the end of 2015. If you have the money then by all means go for frigates as well, but if it is a case of either or I will always go for Subs.

well Mastan sahab can agree or disagree with me or you, its his right .. and he a American so freedom of speech is important for him , with 4 Subs 3 build in China and 1 build in Pakistan can work to, look at Arabs, they have Cash and buy anything thrown at them, but they are using their money wisely , just like Pakistan, look at Egypt, and their Army .compare it with Pakistan, we have secured KSA more than Egypt did yet we did not negotiate with KSA on anything , its all about think big .. yeah ACM has said we have HQ-9 , but only 3 batteries ... its enough ? i doubt that ..
did we order more ? i doubt that ... yeah we need Fighters and this what i am talking about we need another 4+ generation fighter , cause both F-7PG and Mirage both are aging and will be retired, what will we have than ? only 150 JF's and 100 F-16 by 2025 ? cause j-31 is nowhere near in our sights ... by 2025, IAF will have 300+ su-30 , and 50+ rafale and their fleet of Mig-29K and M2k's .. you got any idea to counter them ? forget about in real time battle, you cant even counter that in your fantasies ..
we dont have money for frigate , but why ? because we are buying 8 subs .. which can easily be break into two Parts .. 4 subs with 4 Frigates , and than again 4 subs with 4 frigates will cost the same but keep your surface capability and under water capabilities at same levels .

If the rafale is such a juicy buy why are the Indians squeeling like stuck pigs at the sight of 8 16s. They are both 4+ generation planes and I stand by my earlier statement PAF with bl52s will give the rafale a run for its money. Where in my posts have I sung the praises of the Army or Air force. It is only as good as the people are. If you are corrupt then why blame your forces if they are corrupt. However, they are the single most organized, educated and patriotic enbtity around and perhaps still much more patriotic than you and me.The Nukes are both a blessing and a curse. But tell me what will happen to this region if you use the Nukes.Even if you were able to annihilate India into dust what will happen to the region? have you even thought about it. All the f16s do is raise your nuclear threshold higher and give you that much more time to seek peace. The other aspect to it is that if it is just Nukes protecting you then why bother with modernization, Arm 20 Shaheens towards india and rest assured of peace.

they are crying because that's what they are good at .. crying , their IAF does not seems to care for 8 F-16's even if you buy 36 F-16 V this wont do anything .. you think US will give you that ? lots of members here talking about a follow up order of remaining 10 F-shola , you think they will give you that ? lets assume they did, but how long it will take ? they will make sure you and your PAF will stuck with them, by 2020 and get only odd 18 F-16's so you cant go and look for other options ..just look how they play you on Ah-Z1 deal, they rejected it first and later when they see Pakistan is looking for Chinese and Russians for attack heli's they suddenly , out of nowhere accept the deal , that cost you more than if you buy Chinese Z-10's or Russian ... but again i know what you will say, China ka maal 2 number right ? lol
I am not Blind patriotic like you, or any other stupid poster here , nor i have to match my patriotism with Generals who's son's and daughters live in US and Australia .. nor i am corrupt , i never steal tax , electricity , gas or break any law .
no one is talking about using Nukes, but my point was Nukes are the only factor that keeps your enemy at bay, not your Godly F-16's or immortal Generals .

This once again is not begging but a process of negotiations. There is no begging form Pakistan. Rather a solution which suits the PAF and the US best. It is a win win situation. You are getting good fighters at subsidized rates and they are getting your co operation in Afghanistan which is vital for both countries. If the US were to vacate Afghanistan tomorrow what do you think will happen to Pakistan. But you havent thought this one through have you.

negotiation happen between equal Partners and we are not equals as per you right ? they are humiliating us , giving us aid and weapons but their Generals and Congressmen keep blaming Pakistan and our army for every mess they created in region .. and in return we just have to stand like a student who in in punishment by a teacher . and we are not getting any good fighter because we never approach or even try .. if you work on diplomacy with Russian , than wasting time with Americans , you might see 1-2 sqs of su-35 flying in PAF by now ..
i did thought what will happen when and if US leave, and i know ( i am damn sure ) they wont leave Afghanistan unless ISIS gains its ground in Afghanistan, and leave Pakistan between India , TTP , AFghan Taliban and ISIS .. and after all this still you want to polish the boots of US , you are most welcome .

And why ever not. You dont understand the logic behind US policies do you? You have no concept of the great game do you~? The problem is not what they are calling you as they have to find scapegoats for their own failures. On a state level they have openly appreciated your role although by right they have asked you to fulfill what they think will dserve their interests . You on the other hand have poorly projected your narrative and perhaps inspite of your please otherwise the Governement has stuck to its own agenda. As to ISIS we are responsible for the security of our own borders, so if ISIS/ Daesh/other erntities come in to Pakistan and we let them roam around without checking them then it is not ythe US fault it is the fault of our political/ military establishment. Bhai what we have to look after is pakistan and not Afghanistan. As I have said there is a great game being played and like every one else we are trying to survive in a very hostile and difficult environm,ent. It is not ideal but our choices are very few and it is very much a fight for our survival. We will win or lose irrespective of what XY or Z wants depending on our own capabilities to exploit the situation to our advantage aand get the best possible out come from it. It is not ideal but this is how it is. The F16s suit us now, when our job is done just like the US will move on so will we.

i know about the great game, that is why i am saying cut of ties with US . and what you are talking about is , " Aankhon dekhe makhi niglana " , you know your country security is at risk and yet you are up to beg US . why not make new alliance, or why not just surrender your Nukes to US and made a deal with them ? like Japs did ..
there are things that we can do, but thing is we don't want to ..
meri baala se Saare afghanio's ko goli maar do, all i care is for Pakistan people and its blood .. and we have spilled a lot already . because of US .
F-16 does suites us, but not at cost of Pakistan .. i will keep my stand .we should walk away from US

Lets keep religion out of it, because at the end you are trying to personify history with religion. You seem to be trying to equate living in the world with some divine presence being able to prevent anything without you making an effort. Had the whole idea of divinity been the course of God then there was no need for a man to be appointed prophet, all that was needed was to flash the Quran across the sky or bring down the ten commandments again.

However, the Prophet was an example so that other humans could aspire to follow him using humanly ideas. I am not sure what you mean by allied attack? Muslims were technically the ones who initiated the events Badr and the reason behind it was to reduce the capability of the Quraysh in Mecca.
This did not mean that the Meccan Pagans were not the one that started prosecuting the Muslims or that they tried to diplomatically isolate the newly created Muslim presence in Medina; but that in terms of a initiating conflict after the migration it was the Muslims who hit first.
That hit wasn't some blind jump into the foray but a well planned and well thought out attack carried out after months of reconnaissance and not because Allah revealed some Ayat with latitude and longitude along with a caravan timetable. It was a calculated and thought out move over months to create an impact in the Quraysh that the Muslims will not take it sitting down from their diplomatic and economic strangling.It was also probably aimed at making the Quraysh bleed and keeping them from gaining strength that they could have used against the Muslims. It was thought up by the prophet due to the tactical intelligence he had as a man and not as a revelation.

There is no cost of Pakistan for F-16's. Infact if anything, these F-16s are the US paying us for letting them keep the peace in Afghanistan and keep a leash on those elements of the Afghan Taliban we do have influence on since they know that come spring 2016 the snow will disappear and the Taliban will launch another offensive. For Pakistan, these F-16s help reach its required goal of having 80 F-16s which I sort of told everybody was always the case since 2010.

Please realize that world diplomacy is not as simple as your joint family where issues over turf in a house are settled by tantrums and going to court for equal shares. The state of Texas alone is more economically powerful and nearly as powerful in terms of its share in military to defeat Pakistan, let alone the US. Moreover, not just by its economic and military clout, but by its sheer diplomatic leverage both around Pakistan and in the world.

The prophet engaged the Quraysh at Badr not because he wished to but because he had no choice, they had originally planned to attack the caravan and retreat to Medina well before the Quraysh came to the rescue of their Caravan. Now would you tell me that anaouzubillah, the Prophet was a coward?
Or rather that he knew that militarily he would have a very difficult task in surviving an engagement with the Quraysh. What transpired at Badr was a tactical blunder on part of the Quraysh which included them being demoralized after the defeat of their champions at the hand of those from the Muslim side.

But coming back to the US and Pakistan, at no point has the US displayed complete open hostility or complete open friendship, much like the relationship with the Jews in medina with whom trade was carried out and weapons purchased as well. Each side had its interests to protect and in this case where the align we work together and where they dont we dont. At no point will Pakistan ever survive an engagement with the United states and neither is there any dearth of Muslims in the world in my opinion that angels might be tasked to intervene on what is only an Islamic country by name. The US can and would easily send us back to the stone age if needed. If you want to look at what is the stone age, take a look at Afghanistan. They are essentially living the same lives as they did in the 7th century and suffering the same issues. Their only use is the location and the presence of certain natural resource and strategic routes. As such, today the Afghanis are one of the least relevant people in the world with nothing besides some fascinating tribal customs to promote.

Additionally, when trying to talk on religion... getting personal is a sure fire sign of frustration and not of intelligence. If you cannot convince the other person, agree to disagree instead of going on an insult tirade because that will leave you thrown out of the thread. The TT's have been around much longer and so far despite your claims I have to see how you are at any point fit to replace any of them.

I am trying to figure out exactly what we are self sufficient on apart from blabbering media shows and religious nutjobs?
Because everything from food items to textiles to even toilets we have to import something from somewhere to make on a regular basis. Please find me ONE single item in Pakistan that from start to finish uses only stuff found in Pakistan in every little aspect of its creation? Be it material items or intangible ideas such as new knowledge and information.
Please use tangible examples and not go on an accusation parade since you brought this example up.

On the diplomatic front I cannot disagree on teh sheer idiocy we display but that is due to a lack of intellect and widerr thinking on part of the establishment both in civilian and military circles.
However, despite the massive corruption in the military.. they have managed to do much better than our prime enemy in terms of how and where to spend the cash.
Had they not been doing so, you might have seen a much more different result in 1999, 2001 & 2008.
Still not sure how Mastan Khan's freedom of speech has anything to do with his ability to provide sound analysis and judgement on a situation. If freedom of speech is all it took to say the factually correct ideas, then Donald Trump should also inspire your ideas.

Somewhere in that rant I kept looking for actual tangible facts regarding the capabilities vs cost of the various examples given and how each of them works with our existing military hardware and setup to minimize costs. But since you clearly arent aware of these things, i expect too much.

The F-16 V would have been a welcome requirement but that would not only increase costs but also lead to greater opposition within the Indian lobby in Congress as the greatest advantage AESA brings is in Air Combat while the entire PAF F-16 purchase is being pushed as a precision strike capability against the Taliban. Which coincidently the US IS FINANCING to a certain extent.

well i know better than you, and i can see that from your post, you are circling around on rants and missing all the questions i raised, so i take it a face saving nothing more .
No , Prophet did not done Sulah-e-Hudabia from the position of Power, he was forced to accept ,when he wants to go for Hajj, and Quresh send its Calvary as i say, you need to learn more kid before making your personal opinion and present as Fatwa's . remember banu Qureza ? i am sure you done .. lets leave the religious talk cause i know you will be ignoring and keeping your rants ..



and who is bilal khan ? i didn't know Project director of JF is among us lol , and what if we are exporting it ? you think just because you cut of diplomatic ties with US you can do anything ? i feel pity on your intelligence , assuming you are kid recently playing COD .. nothing more .
self sufficiency does not mean that you do everything yourself, it means you make new alliance , you have China , EU and Russian to do business with , but you think US is God and cant do anything without them .
you don't have to call other retards like you here, cause one is enough for me to deal with ..
i sh!t on to be TT here lol , i consider this a insult to be TT on a forum where any stupid can be one ..
LOL i wont ask them why they are selling their women, cause selling women is part of many Ethnicity in Pakistan which are in number in armed forces ..



I am not your bhai .. The back up of F-18's were at the time of OBL raid .. you gotta be kidding me ?. i have talked to a person who live in that area , and what he told me is something i cant share here ..Salala and OBL raid are two different raids.. and why would they take our F-16's? when they are breaching our air space and shooting on our Soldiers Post ? do you a iota of sense ? ? and now you are exaggerating my point . i did not say nuke them but you can take down choppers easily without the situation been escalated .. cause they were in hostile territory , they knew the consequences can be like that if they are attacking a Army post . use some brain if you have ..



but you are talking like a coward .. he shown us to use diplomacy but not on the price of his followers been killed , again i give you example how meccans loot a caravan that leads to conquest of mecca , but your basic IQ skills are lesser than a retard person ... or i can write in Urdu for you ..
its called strategy , in Khaiber or any battle you take .. examine and use it for study , they use battle stretagies , i wonder if people back than are like you , and get heart attack when they the numbers of Byzantine when battles of Yarmouk happen ..those Muslims are not sent down from heaven or have drink extra Milo to have Superman power, they were humans like you and me , they die with they get cut or pierce by an arrow .
and people like you also exists in Prophets times called " Abu jahl " and Sufiyan , who always look to create a fitna , and among battles lots of muslims runs away that might be your ancestors not mine .
i am not surprised people like you live a long life, because cowards do have long life ..



you think 4 subs order is small one ? we have experience in Sub building Augusta 90B ? remember ? dude you are amusing me with your stupidity. i nnever claim they are buying these for Fun , all i am saying they can break the deal into 2 parts, 4 subs + 4 Frigates , than again 4 subs and 4 frigates .. its called common sense which isn;t very common these days, and you are living prove of that .
you are kidding me right ? what about SPADA ? FM-90 ? do they have 101% kill ratio ? why you buy them ? F-16 ? BM , CM do they have 200% hit ratio ? next time try not to post while drink desi Tharraa .. no technology is 100% ratio , but still people buy to protect the land .. can you say for sure , that 1 F-16 can win against 1 Su-30 MKI for 100% surety ? stop embarrassing yourself . Indians who read your post will die laughing ..or any profession .
you buy SAMS to cover as much ground as Possible, to counter big threats like IAF .



yeah we have to pay back to China but at least we dont have to " DO more " for china, give their intelligence agency more bases, hearing comments like our army is supporting terrorism ,or people like Ramond davis easily slipping away, and yet your ally give shelter to a traitor like HH , and who lives and admired there . yet you are ready to lick the boots of US, i am assuming you are a Punjabi .. cause i can expect this from them ..
I told you this before, and again, 2002 or 2008 , India did not attack you only because you got Nukes nukes, Period . no matter what you think , or your other super duper TT's but truth is that nukes are the only thing keeping your enemy at bay .. and you know how many BVR capable fighter IAF will have ? lol
300+/- Su-30 is more than enough .. let alone M2k's and Rafale .. if you think with some off 150 JF and 100 F-16's you can defend your Air space against a Enemy that big, than you are deluded sir , go and take a shower and come out of this fanboy fantasy , and stop watching Youtube Video haha ..
have some mercy on yourself , not me



you don't understand your own point, buy used and outdated fighters , what after 10 years ? you will be stuck with 150 JF and 100 F-16 ? what else ? do you have any 5th Gen on your list ? you are talking like a kid , who see a 5th gen plane on a shop and start saving up money to buy it next month , now call your TT's and ask them about 5th gen fighters specially J-31 and how much time it will take to fly ..
use some sense if you have any ..



yeah we Islam ka Qilla and our final battle will be with Israel right ?what else BS you want write here?
we have no friends, we cant make any , we cant buy any weapons , we are isolated, blah blah blah ..man you sounds like a mentally retarded person ..
I am talking about making new alliance, urdu mai " mai naye dost banane ki baat ker raha hun " , good that State listen to you , and i am not surprised why they are making such chawal decisions .
faith ? so just faith can win you battles ? why buying F-16's ? buy a sword and shout Allah ho akber , your enemies will surrender lol ,F-16 maybe the best thing for us, but not a necessary that we have to sell our respect to buy 8 Fighters which you and i both don't know will be able to fly in times of war .. whenever US want they can strangle you with sanctions and yet you want to do this, its called suicidal ..
complain to ACM ? lol

From the tone of your post, you are one who is ranting. Please go through this fine publication once to have a fairly genuine look at the history of early Islam. Unless you can find another publication that has numerous awards from multiple recognized Islamic education institutions.
http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Life-Based-Earliest-Sources/dp/1594771537

Hudaybia had not only to do with just the Prophet but also the Quraysh, who despite hating the Muslims were not going to risk their reputation as men of honor by slaughtering all of them, moreover..they had failed to supress the Muslim state from growing and as such were militarily incapable of destroying the now expanding Muslim population since many of their allies refused to participate in attack upon pilgrims to Mecca which was a regular occurrence even before laat or uzza ever got in there.

So while the Quraysh were in a superior position, they were not in a position to completely win; hence their terms.
The same goes for the US in a way even though we are not the same as the Muslims of those times nor is the US the Quraysh. Please find me a period in history during our relationship with the United states which shows only us giving up our supposed "respect" and "money" and the us not contributing without wasting my or your time in what are rants and attempts to save ego.

Considering that pre- 9/11 the ISI had worked very hard and almost succeded in making the Afghan Taliban state dependent on us and had massive infuence on their leadership, and was essentially focused on the greater strategic goal of "Koh kaaf" (which I will leave only for the more astute of mind to understand); we were not going to abandon those assets because the US was essentially invading our "ally" whom we were betraying out of the need to ensure our survival. Yet, since then we continued to ensure that the Afghan Taliban arent totally defeated since we need them to ensure that the very pro-Indian NA doesnt take over and create two fronts for us to fight on as they have currently.

At the same time, the US needed to defeat the Taliban and plant an Afghan government that it can count on for providing future bases for any offensive against China and/or our nuclear assets.
both sides played their game and this isnt a childs game where you can walk away crying that you wont play after someone cheats. Both have their interests which as stated previously; can coincide or diverge. Those 60000 we have dead in our land has a lot more to do with our love for keeping nutjob extremist assets rather than just the US invasion of Afghanistan.
Infact,especially in the Musharraf years and in certain Kayani times; our generals led our troops to certain slaughter with decisions that would seem like they wanted the troops dead or that they were strategically inept(heaven forbid if they had led us to a total war with India) due to them mostly being appointed via nepotism.

The US is not only to blame for the 60000 dead as Mr Tabdeeli likes to harp on.

I am not sure who bilal Khan is but considering all the interviews so far with those involved with the JF-17 which are posted here are testament to it still being quasi Pakistan sufficient.
There is a lot in the JF-17 that depends upon China, Europe and even the US as of yet. If only wild rants and bravado would keep us safe I am sure the well educated professionals with years of experience in air warfare & engineering would not be still looking for alternative sources in the market as of 2/16/2016 for many items.

As for China, lets not consider the many soft loans that carry the "softly" spoken requirement of handing over certain key contracts elsewhere to them even if they arent qualified for it. But because we are a national of emotionally charged ignorant fools, we consider the world in terms of angels or devils and not in terms of who is screwing us less in which area at what time. The best we have achieved is usually one of the three important considerations; so its either Who or Why or Where and never the three together.

The rest of the Qilla e Islam is irrelevant but at no point have you shown that any of the supposed alternatives which you seem to be ranting about and by comparison are much less calm, controlled and polite about than @araz (I can post this entire argument on the members club and have a poll about who is more polite and controlled in their post in the two of you if you believe somehow that you are being "civil")about it is both financially,diplomatically and time wise viable.

So until you can post concrete arguments as to why the F-16 is NOT the most cost effective solution (where cost is money and time) both in the short and long term to ensure the PAF maintains its required capability levels. I see nothing more here than a rant.

 

[Paksanity]

@araz

Good arguments but I'm afraid the emotional ones won't get it.

 

[rockstar08]

Lets keep religion out of it, because at the end you are trying to personify history with religion. You seem to be trying to equate living in the world with some divine presence being able to prevent anything without you making an effort. Had the whole idea of divinity been the course of God then there was no need for a man to be appointed prophet, all that was needed was to flash the Quran across the sky or bring down the ten commandments again.

Start with bold part, you are either confused or just to desperate to come into this that you dont even realize that you bring Religion and not just that you are just stating your OWN personal view point .. i hope you are informed of that, if not that show me a wall to smash my head on ..
Please don't talk about Prophet been the Appointed men, yet how many of you here actually does follow him , or do ? isn't that our so called Liberal minds of PAF who have been denying the rules Shariah .. ( i don't like it but still, not a bigot ) .
Quran is not just to put in covers and put in on the highest ground possible , its for guidance , not just people in Pakistan, but for wanna be American to ..

However, the Prophet was an example so that other humans could aspire to follow him using humanly ideas. I am not sure what you mean by allied attack? Muslims were technically the ones who initiated the events Badr and the reason behind it was to reduce the capability of the Quraysh in Mecca.
This did not mean that the Meccan Pagans were not the one that started prosecuting the Muslims or that they tried to diplomatically isolate the newly created Muslim presence in Medina; but that in terms of a initiating conflict after the migration it was the Muslims who hit first.
That hit wasn't some blind jump into the foray but a well planned and well thought out attack carried out after months of reconnaissance and not because Allah revealed some Ayat with latitude and longitude along with a caravan timetable. It was a calculated and thought out move over months to create an impact in the Quraysh that the Muslims will not take it sitting down from their diplomatic and economic strangling.It was also probably aimed at making the Quraysh bleed and keeping them from gaining strength that they could have used against the Muslims. It was thought up by the prophet due to the tactical intelligence he had as a man and not as a revelation.

I see you based your entire Post by taking point and quote out of the context, read again i said the Conquest of Mecca was imitated by a attack of Allied Tribe ,later on Abu sufiyan try his best to extend the Sulah in which he was failed . again not here to read you history . Muslims were in Exile living in territory controlled by Jews and Christians, and yet when Muslims went in, they did not live like Servants but they made terms on equality, go and read Constitution Madina for that .. i am not in mood to provide you link , you are old enough to find it .

in second para there is nothing to answer .. just plain statements nothing more , with some fansy words on top .

There is no cost of Pakistan for F-16's. Infact if anything, these F-16s are the US paying us for letting them keep the peace in Afghanistan and keep a leash on those elements of the Afghan Taliban we do have influence on since they know that come spring 2016 the snow will disappear and the Taliban will launch another offensive. For Pakistan, these F-16s help reach its required goal of having 80 F-16s which I sort of told everybody was always the case since 2010.

I said it 2-3 times , if you read it .. if they are coming for Free Fine , but i know there will be stuff which we will be presenting to US like Visa's , Shamsi base and what not .. it will not come clear now, but in coming decade and than it will be you with your buddy TT's criticizing Army for that .. LOL
what my point which you and Araz failed that US will and they are humiliating us for begging for these 8 F-16's that worth very less in modern warfare .. and even if they are capable but for how long ? after 2020 PAF will be retiring F-7 and Mirage III, and we will left with 150 JF and 80 F-16's ... please don't bring up the J-31 cause its far ahead and no other country will sell you anything ..

The prophet engaged the Quraysh at Badr not because he wished to but because he had no choice, they had originally planned to attack the caravan and retreat to Medina well before the Quraysh came to the rescue of their Caravan. Now would you tell me that anaouzubillah, the Prophet was a coward?
Or rather that he knew that militarily he would have a very difficult task in surviving an engagement with the Quraysh. What transpired at Badr was a tactical blunder on part of the Quraysh which included them being demoralized after the defeat of their champions at the hand of those from the Muslim side.

as you are keep bringing Religion , but in your personal views so i have my privillage to respond you ( my views ) , there wasn't anything about been Coward or brave, its called Strategy , to defeat or weaken your enemy at least . despite half of Prophet followers were somehow related to Mecca's yet they did not bow , or did anything from a weaker position , that i wont be called a decision of Coward , that called leadership .. and when you know that what you are doing is HAQ, than no matter what comes next ..
from the side of Quresh it wasn't a blunder, janab.. they did the best they can , they bring the finest warriors except Khalid which maybe Allah himself did not let him go by some ( maslehat ) that he still remains a undefeated General in Islamic history . the factors of humiliation of Meccans include ..
-Over confidence
-Personal Disputes
- blood factor
-and lack of Iman ( for religious people ) .

the Muslims include Prophet and Allah knew its a do and die situation , things were already escalated to the point on no return, now the decision has to be made by Allah , that either to help those 300 or leave them Prophet alone, with his few followers and that will mark the end of Small religion . remember the Dua Prophet made right before the battle started ? i can quote if you want ..

Please realize that world diplomacy is not as simple as your joint family where issues over turf in a house are settled by tantrums and going to court for equal shares. The state of Texas alone is more economically powerful and nearly as powerful in terms of its share in military to defeat Pakistan, let alone the US. Moreover, not just by its economic and military clout, but by its sheer diplomatic leverage both around Pakistan and in the world.

we don't have Family dispute as i belong to a educated family background .. worry about your's and keep my family out of it .. cause if i start bring in your's might cause some problem for you . again, you haven't read the post and yet you jump in like Sunny deol to fight Araz battle ? lol great khoob jami gi jab ml bethen do ............... forget it .
i say cut of diplomatic ties, stop buying military hardware, and you can do it politely without going to kick their A$$'s which we cant .. when there is a will there is way . you just have to create a strong reason and that was given to you by American as gift by attacking and killing Pakistani soldiers at Salala .. when that happen i knew US will never Apologize cause what they did was according to them was right , and it wasn't a mistake, any learned man with little sense can know .
my words seems to be drop of Deaf ears ..

But coming back to the US and Pakistan, at no point has the US displayed complete open hostility or complete open friendship, much like the relationship with the Jews in medina with whom trade was carried out and weapons purchased as well. Each side had its interests to protect and in this case where the align we work together and where they dont we dont. At no point will Pakistan ever survive an engagement with the United states and neither is there any dearth of Muslims in the world in my opinion that angels might be tasked to intervene on what is only an Islamic country by name. The US can and would easily send us back to the stone age if needed. If you want to look at what is the stone age, take a look at Afghanistan. They are essentially living the same lives as they did in the 7th century and suffering the same issues. Their only use is the location and the presence of certain natural resource and strategic routes. As such, today the Afghanis are one of the least relevant people in the world with nothing besides some fascinating tribal customs to promote.

Additionally, when trying to talk on religion... getting personal is a sure fire sign of frustration and not of intelligence. If you cannot convince the other person, agree to disagree instead of going on an insult tirade because that will leave you thrown out of the thread. The TT's have been around much longer and so far despite your claims I have to see how you are at any point fit to replace any of them.

they did show full hostility when they kill your soldiers, that was our chance to keep our ties limit to just embassy and shaking hands .. but we did't do that didn't we ? i still remember the statements from Hawaldar Kiyani and i was laughing at his sorry A$$ .. you are giving me the example of Jews living in Madina, and you forget that they are conspiring against the Muslims and what was they end result ? remember what happen after kayber ? Banu Qureza might ring some bells for you.. told you not here to teach you history, you are picking things to prove your point .. which is amazing

Yeah US can send us back to Stone age, but are we not living in Stone age ? have you ever visited FATA , Interior sindh or Areas in Karachi where basic needs are far from the reach of Humans .. and have you ever think before people like you type , US will attack us ? why ? are they crazy ? we are choosing for ourselves, US wont chose our friends and foes . if we want to keep relationship with someone that should be our decision , not some fear that US will do this and that.. and US will not directly attack Pakistan unless they are so sure that Proxies cant work for them anymore .

Frustrated, trust me i laugh when i read such posts i have much bigger problems to stress about . well i am not here to convince anyone, i am just presenting my point , just like Araz did .. but when it comes personal attacks , i reply to people in way they deserve

I am trying to figure out exactly what we are self sufficient on apart from blabbering media shows and religious nutjobs?
Because everything from food items to textiles to even toilets we have to import something from somewhere to make on a regular basis. Please find me ONE single item in Pakistan that from start to finish uses only stuff found in Pakistan in every little aspect of its creation? Be it material items or intangible ideas such as new knowledge and information.
Please use tangible examples and not go on an accusation parade since you brought this example up.

Its hard to reply cause you cherry pick from my posts .. Seriously man ..
yeah i get it, i know we are dependent but again when did i say go to war with US for no reason ? all i am saying stop buying military hardware as they embarrass and humiliate you before giving you a single bullet ..
and if we are exporting something today that does not mean we can't produce it tomorrow .. if you think that i rest my case here and for free i will pray for you

Somewhere in that rant I kept looking for actual tangible facts regarding the capabilities vs cost of the various examples given and how each of them works with our existing military hardware and setup to minimize costs. But since you clearly arent aware of these things, i expect too much.

does it only about VS ? what about we are compromising on our national security to have those 8 F-16 ? and where is the surety that US will not sanction us again ? on the very last moment of any future war ? you can trust them but i cant .
F-16 coming for free , most welcome but even if US did not stop putting all blame of Pakistan of their own failures i'd say , Thank you , you can keep your 8 F-shola .

The F-16 V would have been a welcome requirement but that would not only increase costs but also lead to greater opposition within the Indian lobby in Congress as the greatest advantage AESA brings is in Air Combat while the entire PAF F-16 purchase is being pushed as a precision strike capability against the Taliban. Which coincidently the US IS FINANCING to a certain extent.

You really think they will give us F-16V ? in numbers ? i doubt that .. when it comes to that, than we'll talk .
F-shola block 52's are under US watch .. because of any reason , but still they are . and how many block 52's we have so far ? been Allied of US for 14 years in WOT , what we get ? destroyed Economy , 60K+ deaths, Army scattered around the land fighting war , no win in sight .. .i'd say we'd be better without US .
you answer your own Question, we are asking such planes to fight the mess US created in our background yet we have to present our A$$;s like a cheap call girl every time we have to make move to protect our land .. that's irony

 

[araz]

Lets keep religion out of it, because at the end you are trying to personify history with religion. You seem to be trying to equate living in the world with some divine presence being able to prevent anything without you making an effort. Had the whole idea of divinity been the course of God then there was no need for a man to be appointed prophet, all that was needed was to flash the Quran across the sky or bring down the ten commandments again.

However, the Prophet was an example so that other humans could aspire to follow him using humanly ideas. I am not sure what you mean by allied attack? Muslims were technically the ones who initiated the events Badr and the reason behind it was to reduce the capability of the Quraysh in Mecca.
This did not mean that the Meccan Pagans were not the one that started prosecuting the Muslims or that they tried to diplomatically isolate the newly created Muslim presence in Medina; but that in terms of a initiating conflict after the migration it was the Muslims who hit first.
That hit wasn't some blind jump into the foray but a well planned and well thought out attack carried out after months of reconnaissance and not because Allah revealed some Ayat with latitude and longitude along with a caravan timetable. It was a calculated and thought out move over months to create an impact in the Quraysh that the Muslims will not take it sitting down from their diplomatic and economic strangling.It was also probably aimed at making the Quraysh bleed and keeping them from gaining strength that they could have used against the Muslims. It was thought up by the prophet due to the tactical intelligence he had as a man and not as a revelation.

There is no cost of Pakistan for F-16's. Infact if anything, these F-16s are the US paying us for letting them keep the peace in Afghanistan and keep a leash on those elements of the Afghan Taliban we do have influence on since they know that come spring 2016 the snow will disappear and the Taliban will launch another offensive. For Pakistan, these F-16s help reach its required goal of having 80 F-16s which I sort of told everybody was always the case since 2010.

Please realize that world diplomacy is not as simple as your joint family where issues over turf in a house are settled by tantrums and going to court for equal shares. The state of Texas alone is more economically powerful and nearly as powerful in terms of its share in military to defeat Pakistan, let alone the US. Moreover, not just by its economic and military clout, but by its sheer diplomatic leverage both around Pakistan and in the world.

The prophet engaged the Quraysh at Badr not because he wished to but because he had no choice, they had originally planned to attack the caravan and retreat to Medina well before the Quraysh came to the rescue of their Caravan. Now would you tell me that anaouzubillah, the Prophet was a coward?
Or rather that he knew that militarily he would have a very difficult task in surviving an engagement with the Quraysh. What transpired at Badr was a tactical blunder on part of the Quraysh which included them being demoralized after the defeat of their champions at the hand of those from the Muslim side.

But coming back to the US and Pakistan, at no point has the US displayed complete open hostility or complete open friendship, much like the relationship with the Jews in medina with whom trade was carried out and weapons purchased as well. Each side had its interests to protect and in this case where the align we work together and where they dont we dont. At no point will Pakistan ever survive an engagement with the United states and neither is there any dearth of Muslims in the world in my opinion that angels might be tasked to intervene on what is only an Islamic country by name. The US can and would easily send us back to the stone age if needed. If you want to look at what is the stone age, take a look at Afghanistan. They are essentially living the same lives as they did in the 7th century and suffering the same issues. Their only use is the location and the presence of certain natural resource and strategic routes. As such, today the Afghanis are one of the least relevant people in the world with nothing besides some fascinating tribal customs to promote.

Additionally, when trying to talk on religion... getting personal is a sure fire sign of frustration and not of intelligence. If you cannot convince the other person, agree to disagree instead of going on an insult tirade because that will leave you thrown out of the thread. The TT's have been around much longer and so far despite your claims I have to see how you are at any point fit to replace any of them.

I am trying to figure out exactly what we are self sufficient on apart from blabbering media shows and religious nutjobs?
Because everything from food items to textiles to even toilets we have to import something from somewhere to make on a regular basis. Please find me ONE single item in Pakistan that from start to finish uses only stuff found in Pakistan in every little aspect of its creation? Be it material items or intangible ideas such as new knowledge and information.
Please use tangible examples and not go on an accusation parade since you brought this example up.

On the diplomatic front I cannot disagree on teh sheer idiocy we display but that is due to a lack of intellect and widerr thinking on part of the establishment both in civilian and military circles.
However, despite the massive corruption in the military.. they have managed to do much better than our prime enemy in terms of how and where to spend the cash.
Had they not been doing so, you might have seen a much more different result in 1999, 2001 & 2008.
Still not sure how Mastan Khan's freedom of speech has anything to do with his ability to provide sound analysis and judgement on a situation. If freedom of speech is all it took to say the factually correct ideas, then Donald Trump should also inspire your ideas.

Somewhere in that rant I kept looking for actual tangible facts regarding the capabilities vs cost of the various examples given and how each of them works with our existing military hardware and setup to minimize costs. But since you clearly arent aware of these things, i expect too much.

The F-16 V would have been a welcome requirement but that would not only increase costs but also lead to greater opposition within the Indian lobby in Congress as the greatest advantage AESA brings is in Air Combat while the entire PAF F-16 purchase is being pushed as a precision strike capability against the Taliban. Which coincidently the US IS FINANCING to a certain extent.


From the tone of your post, you are one who is ranting. Please go through this fine publication once to have a fairly genuine look at the history of early Islam. Unless you can find another publication that has numerous awards from multiple recognized Islamic education institutions.
Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources: Martin Lings: 9781594771538: Amazon.com: Books

Hudaybia had not only to do with just the Prophet but also the Quraysh, who despite hating the Muslims were not going to risk their reputation as men of honor by slaughtering all of them, moreover..they had failed to supress the Muslim state from growing and as such were militarily incapable of destroying the now expanding Muslim population since many of their allies refused to participate in attack upon pilgrims to Mecca which was a regular occurrence even before laat or uzza ever got in there.

So while the Quraysh were in a superior position, they were not in a position to completely win; hence their terms.
The same goes for the US in a way even though we are not the same as the Muslims of those times nor is the US the Quraysh. Please find me a period in history during our relationship with the United states which shows only us giving up our supposed "respect" and "money" and the us not contributing without wasting my or your time in what are rants and attempts to save ego.

Considering that pre- 9/11 the ISI had worked very hard and almost succeded in making the Afghan Taliban state dependent on us and had massive infuence on their leadership, and was essentially focused on the greater strategic goal of "Koh kaaf" (which I will leave only for the more astute of mind to understand); we were not going to abandon those assets because the US was essentially invading our "ally" whom we were betraying out of the need to ensure our survival. Yet, since then we continued to ensure that the Afghan Taliban arent totally defeated since we need them to ensure that the very pro-Indian NA doesnt take over and create two fronts for us to fight on as they have currently.

At the same time, the US needed to defeat the Taliban and plant an Afghan government that it can count on for providing future bases for any offensive against China and/or our nuclear assets.
both sides played their game and this isnt a childs game where you can walk away crying that you wont play after someone cheats. Both have their interests which as stated previously; can coincide or diverge. Those 60000 we have dead in our land has a lot more to do with our love for keeping nutjob extremist assets rather than just the US invasion of Afghanistan.
Infact,especially in the Musharraf years and in certain Kayani times; our generals led our troops to certain slaughter with decisions that would seem like they wanted the troops dead or that they were strategically inept(heaven forbid if they had led us to a total war with India) due to them mostly being appointed via nepotism.

The US is not only to blame for the 60000 dead as Mr Tabdeeli likes to harp on.

I am not sure who bilal Khan is but considering all the interviews so far with those involved with the JF-17 which are posted here are testament to it still being quasi Pakistan sufficient.
There is a lot in the JF-17 that depends upon China, Europe and even the US as of yet. If only wild rants and bravado would keep us safe I am sure the well educated professionals with years of experience in air warfare & engineering would not be still looking for alternative sources in the market as of 2/16/2016 for many items.

As for China, lets not consider the many soft loans that carry the "softly" spoken requirement of handing over certain key contracts elsewhere to them even if they arent qualified for it. But because we are a national of emotionally charged ignorant fools, we consider the world in terms of angels or devils and not in terms of who is screwing us less in which area at what time. The best we have achieved is usually one of the three important considerations; so its either Who or Why or Where and never the three together.

The rest of the Qilla e Islam is irrelevant but at no point have you shown that any of the supposed alternatives which you seem to be ranting about and by comparison are much less calm, controlled and polite about than @araz (I can post this entire argument on the members club and have a poll about who is more polite and controlled in their post in the two of you if you believe somehow that you are being "civil")about it is both financially,diplomatically and time wise viable.

So until you can post concrete arguments as to why the F-16 is NOT the most cost effective solution (where cost is money and time) both in the short and long term to ensure the PAF maintains its required capability levels. I see nothing more here than a rant.

Thank you for saving me another half an hour responding. It was a debate without any end. While you are at it please take a look at post #86. I would have rated it negatively but for the fact that it would be considered Bias and I am not one to sharpen my knife on someones bruised ego.
Regards
A

 

[rockstar08]

From the tone of your post, you are one who is ranting. Please go through this fine publication once to have a fairly genuine look at the history of early Islam. Unless you can find another publication that has numerous awards from multiple recognized Islamic education institutions.
http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Life-Based-Earliest-Sources/dp/1594771537

you are entitled to your opinion like me , from what i read your last post nothing more than self-Opinioned arguments and statements nothing more you did not provide with some divine revelations or Gospel truths .. so before pointing fingers at me, lets see in our own Baniyaan's .

Hudaybia had not only to do with just the Prophet but also the Quraysh, who despite hating the Muslims were not going to risk their reputation as men of honor by slaughtering all of them, moreover..they had failed to supress the Muslim state from growing and as such were militarily incapable of destroying the now expanding Muslim population since many of their allies refused to participate in attack upon pilgrims to Mecca which was a regular occurrence even before laat or uzza ever got in there.

Again religion @Oscar .. haha ..
Talking about Honor here ,which i was trying hard to put some in Araz , if Quresh and their leaders can have it than why can't we ? read my posts again, my only point is been Equals, live with Dignity and respect.. Honor .
and just as you mentioned , most of the tribes refused to attack the coming Muslims to Visit Kaaba, shows that if you are nation or people of Honor , you will be treated like one ..

So while the Quraysh were in a superior position, they were not in a position to completely win; hence their terms.
The same goes for the US in a way even though we are not the same as the Muslims of those times nor is the US the Quraysh. Please find me a period in history during our relationship with the United states which shows only us giving up our supposed "respect" and "money" and the us not contributing without wasting my or your time in what are rants and attempts to save ego.

Quresh Think they are in Superior positing , it wasn't the ground realities .. there is a different Janab . Over confidence mostly lead you to perish nothing more ..Pakistan is weak , small and no where near capable to take on US .. but standing against the US , on things which are wrong done by US , by the world Standards, ( salala incident ) we can at least take a stand , not go for fight but at least cut of ties , stop dealing with them militarily . that was possible .
creating new Alliance harm you nothing , look are we not moving towards Russia now ? yeah its a long way to go but at least we did take a step.. what if we take this step around 5-6 years ago .. its not rants .. what i am saying is to stand for your country... what if i told you to lick the boots of Russians , they got more nukes than you, they can wipe out US too .but why would people of a nation bow ? when their own people lives are on stake ..

Considering that pre- 9/11 the ISI had worked very hard and almost succeded in making the Afghan Taliban state dependent on us and had massive infuence on their leadership, and was essentially focused on the greater strategic goal of "Koh kaaf" (which I will leave only for the more astute of mind to understand); we were not going to abandon those assets because the US was essentially invading our "ally" whom we were betraying out of the need to ensure our survival. Yet, since then we continued to ensure that the Afghan Taliban arent totally defeated since we need them to ensure that the very pro-Indian NA doesnt take over and create two fronts for us to fight on as they have currently.

Janab Post 9/11 , lots of things were happening , care to mentioned others ? or its just Evil ISI stuff ? make your mind clear , am i talking to a neutral person or just another blind Patriot from US of Big A's .

At the same time, the US needed to defeat the Taliban and plant an Afghan government that it can count on for providing future bases for any offensive against China and/or our nuclear assets.
both sides played their game and this isnt a childs game where you can walk away crying that you wont play after someone cheats. Both have their interests which as stated previously; can coincide or diverge. Those 60000 we have dead in our land has a lot more to do with our love for keeping nutjob extremist assets rather than just the US invasion of Afghanistan.
Infact,especially in the Musharraf years and in certain Kayani times; our generals led our troops to certain slaughter with decisions that would seem like they wanted the troops dead or that they were strategically inept(heaven forbid if they had led us to a total war with India) due to them mostly being appointed via nepotism.

Common people like you and me, know what US real intention is , and yet what you are proposing to bow down ? and keep Pakistan in a state of continuous destruction ? that's stupid don't you think ? yeah separating from US will harm us in every way but that does not make us wipe out , we will survive, there are many countries that survive .. Iran and NK are examples, when i see world map even today, i see NK and Iran there .. nor they are bombed back to stone stage .

Extremist have their own Quota of killing , but you cant just walk away from the fact that post 9/11 , there wasn't such stuff going on , on this magnitude in Pakistan.. look how your beloved America topple govts in ME and left them die and crushed between ISIS and Crazy dictators .
what mushi or kiyani did, you can ask them .. everyone do what they see fits.. just like you write what fits your point ..

As for China, lets not consider the many soft loans that carry the "softly" spoken requirement of handing over certain key contracts elsewhere to them even if they arent qualified for it. But because we are a national of emotionally charged ignorant fools, we consider the world in terms of angels or devils and not in terms of who is screwing us less in which area at what time. The best we have achieved is usually one of the three important considerations; so its either Who or Why or Where and never the three together.

yeah it does, just like we pay the price with US didn't we ? don;t we have to give Shamsi base ? give safe passage to Ramond davis ? HH ? and OBL raid ? getting away with salala ..
US throws Pakistan a bone and we catch like a good Dog .. what i am saying , gifting certain contracts to Chinese who are not Qualified as per you ..what's the difference ? at least Chinese are not blowing our soldiers to pieces . why not you send your kid to Army in Pakistan and let him to get position near Pak-Afghan Border ? No , you probably want your kids to be Doctor , Engineer or maybe live American Dream aye ?
we are not Emotionally fools , its just we want to believe that US is our friend and ally which he was never be .

The rest of the Qilla e Islam is irrelevant but at no point have you shown that any of the supposed alternatives which you seem to be ranting about and by comparison are much less calm, controlled and polite about than @araz (I can post this entire argument on the members club and have a poll about who is more polite and controlled in their post in the two of you if you believe somehow that you are being "civil")about it is both financially,diplomatically and time wise viable.

have you ever heard of the word " Peti bhai " , that word speaks a lot

Hope to see your reply soon... if i am not Banned by than LOL

 

[SQ8]

Start with bold part, you are either confused or just to desperate to come into this that you dont even realize that you bring Religion and not just that you are just stating your OWN personal view point .. i hope you are informed of that, if not that show me a wall to smash my head on ..
Please don't talk about Prophet been the Appointed men, yet how many of you here actually does follow him , or do ? isn't that our so called Liberal minds of PAF who have been denying the rules Shariah .. ( i don't like it but still, not a bigot ) .
Quran is not just to put in covers and put in on the highest ground possible , its for guidance , not just people in Pakistan, but for wanna be American to ..



I see you based your entire Post by taking point and quote out of the context, read again i said the Conquest of Mecca was imitated by a attack of Allied Tribe ,later on Abu sufiyan try his best to extend the Sulah in which he was failed . again not here to read you history . Muslims were in Exile living in territory controlled by Jews and Christians, and yet when Muslims went in, they did not live like Servants but they made terms on equality, go and read Constitution Madina for that .. i am not in mood to provide you link , you are old enough to find it .

in second para there is nothing to answer .. just plain statements nothing more , with some fansy words on top .



I said it 2-3 times , if you read it .. if they are coming for Free Fine , but i know there will be stuff which we will be presenting to US like Visa's , Shamsi base and what not .. it will not come clear now, but in coming decade and than it will be you with your buddy TT's criticizing Army for that .. LOL
what my point which you and Araz failed that US will and they are humiliating us for begging for these 8 F-16's that worth very less in modern warfare .. and even if they are capable but for how long ? after 2020 PAF will be retiring F-7 and Mirage III, and we will left with 150 JF and 80 F-16's ... please don't bring up the J-31 cause its far ahead and no other country will sell you anything ..



as you are keep bringing Religion , but in your personal views so i have my privillage to respond you ( my views ) , there wasn't anything about been Coward or brave, its called Strategy , to defeat or weaken your enemy at least . despite half of Prophet followers were somehow related to Mecca's yet they did not bow , or did anything from a weaker position , that i wont be called a decision of Coward , that called leadership .. and when you know that what you are doing is HAQ, than no matter what comes next ..
from the side of Quresh it wasn't a blunder, janab.. they did the best they can , they bring the finest warriors except Khalid which maybe Allah himself did not let him go by some ( maslehat ) that he still remains a undefeated General in Islamic history . the factors of humiliation of Meccans include ..
-Over confidence
-Personal Disputes
- blood factor
-and lack of Iman ( for religious people ) .

the Muslims include Prophet and Allah knew its a do and die situation , things were already escalated to the point on no return, now the decision has to be made by Allah , that either to help those 300 or leave them Prophet alone, with his few followers and that will mark the end of Small religion . remember the Dua Prophet made right before the battle started ? i can quote if you want ..



we don't have Family dispute as i belong to a educated family background .. worry about your's and keep my family out of it .. cause if i start bring in your's might cause some problem for you . again, you haven't read the post and yet you jump in like Sunny deol to fight Araz battle ? lol great khoob jami gi jab ml bethen do ............... forget it .
i say cut of diplomatic ties, stop buying military hardware, and you can do it politely without going to kick their A$$'s which we cant .. when there is a will there is way . you just have to create a strong reason and that was given to you by American as gift by attacking and killing Pakistani soldiers at Salala .. when that happen i knew US will never Apologize cause what they did was according to them was right , and it wasn't a mistake, any learned man with little sense can know .
my words seems to be drop of Deaf ears ..



they did show full hostility when they kill your soldiers, that was our chance to keep our ties limit to just embassy and shaking hands .. but we did't do that didn't we ? i still remember the statements from Hawaldar Kiyani and i was laughing at his sorry A$$ .. you are giving me the example of Jews living in Madina, and you forget that they are conspiring against the Muslims and what was they end result ? remember what happen after kayber ? Banu Qureza might ring some bells for you.. told you not here to teach you history, you are picking things to prove your point .. which is amazing

Yeah US can send us back to Stone age, but are we not living in Stone age ? have you ever visited FATA , Interior sindh or Areas in Karachi where basic needs are far from the reach of Humans .. and have you ever think before people like you type , US will attack us ? why ? are they crazy ? we are choosing for ourselves, US wont chose our friends and foes . if we want to keep relationship with someone that should be our decision , not some fear that US will do this and that.. and US will not directly attack Pakistan unless they are so sure that Proxies cant work for them anymore .

Frustrated, trust me i laugh when i read such posts i have much bigger problems to stress about . well i am not here to convince anyone, i am just presenting my point , just like Araz did .. but when it comes personal attacks , i reply to people in way they deserve



Its hard to reply cause you cherry pick from my posts .. Seriously man ..
yeah i get it, i know we are dependent but again when did i say go to war with US for no reason ? all i am saying stop buying military hardware as they embarrass and humiliate you before giving you a single bullet ..
and if we are exporting something today that does not mean we can't produce it tomorrow .. if you think that i rest my case here and for free i will pray for you



does it only about VS ? what about we are compromising on our national security to have those 8 F-16 ? and where is the surety that US will not sanction us again ? on the very last moment of any future war ? you can trust them but i cant .
F-16 coming for free , most welcome but even if US did not stop putting all blame of Pakistan of their own failures i'd say , Thank you , you can keep your 8 F-shola .



You really think they will give us F-16V ? in numbers ? i doubt that .. when it comes to that, than we'll talk .
F-shola block 52's are under US watch .. because of any reason , but still they are . and how many block 52's we have so far ? been Allied of US for 14 years in WOT , what we get ? destroyed Economy , 60K+ deaths, Army scattered around the land fighting war , no win in sight .. .i'd say we'd be better without US .
you answer your own Question, we are asking such planes to fight the mess US created in our background yet we have to present our A$$;s like a cheap call girl every time we have to make move to protect our land .. that's irony

Your own religious tirade seems to fall upon your deaf ears. It seems that in your own rant you continuously ignore that you are being hypocritical when accusing others of the same thing.

But I would humour you because first the point has to be proven to other posters than one person is ranting and the other is arguing with logic, and secondly because seeing you froth at your mouth in frustration is too much fun to ignore. However, I would advise keeping your emotions in check since clearly banning you is the easiest for me to do and not a single person in the administration and many in the forum will ever miss your presence.

Ill leave all your self-defeating arguments on the early muslim history aside since not a single line of your posts seems to refer to any phrased intelligent argument, and instead sounds like this guy speaking.

So , yes

Unless you can restate your reply in the same tone me and Araz have it in. You will find yourself in trouble.

 

[M.AsfandYar]

well i know better than you, and i can see that from your post, you are circling around on rants and missing all the questions i raised, so i take it a face saving nothing more .
No , Prophet did not done Sulah-e-Hudabia from the position of Power, he was forced to accept ,when he wants to go for Hajj, and Quresh send its Calvary as i say, you need to learn more kid before making your personal opinion and present as Fatwa's . remember banu Qureza ? i am sure you done .. lets leave the religious talk cause i know you will be ignoring and keeping your rants ..

Well respect for him would nice as he is elder and more senior. And sir i do think it is you here that needs to do some research.