United we stand, divided we fall

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sir i am not saying that military is Enemy of Pakistan. but i said about the leadership. can u tell me any leader in past made any serious effort to provide education to the poor part of the country. they dont want, if people got education then they will be able to raise their voice against their corruption. the people go to USA to get Govt. so what we can expect from them.

You are correct about that. I inferred more than I should have from your post (which I seem to be doing frequently nowadays, and my apologies to all again). The political leadership has failed this country and its people time and time again.

However, in todays situation, I find the threat from religious extremism to be greater than any other. Unfortunately it seems we will be stuck with the same political leadership that has failed us before, to solve this existential threat we face.

 

[rana]

religious extremism can be handled if we think ourselves, formulate or own policies, dont accept dictation from abroad and dont accept US stamped people.
but all these needed education and majority of population is Illiterate and most of the educated people have no interest in it.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

but all these needed education and majority of population is Illiterate and most of the educated people have no interest in it.

That is true of all middle classes of all countries.

The majority of foot soldiers to fight for causes (right or wrong) is invariably from the lower strata of society.

The middle class is too concerned about rising from their current existence, grabbing the economic benefits, and rising higher, and all on the back of the lower strata, whose battles with the govt benefit not those who battle, but the middle class.

So why should they bother when others are their to improve their existence?

 

[IceCold]

THOSE were created and trained by the Pakistan to fight in Afghanistan and Kashmir then. Now they are enemies of Pakistan?

Why blame them? Instead of providing education, your government trained them to use Ak-47 and make bombs. You exploited their poverty and religious belief. You preached them the version of Islam that they practice now. You preached them the jihad culture. You need mercenaries to fight in Afghanistan.

Why don't I see people from Punjab province being sent to fight in Afghanistan and Kashmir? Why didn't the Pakistan government used the Punjabis to fight those wars?

So, its only the responsibility of these tribal to liberate Kashmir and Afghanistan. Only these people are bound to the religious duty and to die to please the GOD.




You mean the army?

Post your BS somewhere else. Punjab was equally involved in the conflict. Preaching Jihad is not wrong, the training of PA is also done on the same bases means their training is also based on Jihad. You cannot compare these people with the ones who blow themselves. Did u ever heard that a suecide attack took place against the soviets. No it was never done and the same was with kashmir. Those were freedom fighters and rose their weapons against the occupied force and they embrace shahadaat while fighting enemy not by blowing themselves up.

 

[airian]

i would just like to say that political leaders can never be united they are in reality all mean people who just want to be in power to enjoy a luxurious life and they do not care about the people of pakistan if they would have then leaders like benazir and nawaz sharif were given a chance to deliver twice and what they did everything for themselves. As for President Musharraf when Musharraf came to power he had correct strategies but then the sort of supporters he gathered to rule are all those corrupt people who were once supporters of benazir and nawaz sharif what loyalty can they show to musharraf. Actually the bomb blasts that happened in benazir rally are ofcourse a big failure of the law and order enforcement agencies but it is also because of the ill natured people who call themselves 'supporters of musharraf' and who have advised wrongly president musharraf on many occassions what happened on 12th may and what about the lal masjid crisis it is all the failure of policies musharraf's government has made. It is the time that leaders like benazir and nawaz sharif even those so called supporters of musharraf should quit politics and find other means to earn money any young leadership should be given a chance who can make better policies so that such incidents in which innocent lives are wasted do not happen in our country. its very sad to see that our country has to face such crisis today instead of moving on we are heading back...

 

[dabong1]

Rana and Awaaz:



Who is using Islam to take over children's libraries? Who is using Islam to issue threats of suicide bombings against innocent civilians? Who is using Islam to blow up people's businesses and shops? Who is using Islam to blow up, threaten and shut down schools run by Christian missionaries, and those that girls are educated in? Who is using Islam to behead unarmed captured soldiers who should be treated as POW's? Who is distributing videos of beheadings?

Who is preventing Pakistan from progressing? Who is threatening away NGO's providing essential health and educational services? Who is disrupting investment and economic activity by carrying out bombing campaigns against businesses and threatening and harassing people? Who is insisting on continuing with a medieval system, where the rule of Gun applies, women are prevented from being educated and voting, terrorists are given safe haven and allowed to conduct terrorist attacks both within Pakistan and in other sovereign nations?

Who wants to take away the individual freedoms and liberty of Pakistanis by forcing their version of "morality" upon them under the guise of Shariah?

I would like to know how you gentleman came to the conclusion that those who do the above are not the enemies of Pakistan, but Musharraf and the military are.

Who gave these people training and weapons?
Who overthrew an elected government?
Who is bombing his own countrymen?
Who ignored a supreme court judgment to allow nawaaz to stay in pakistan?
Who ordered the masaacre of lal masjid?
Who is selling the country assets to foreigners?
Who has dropped all corruption cases against benazir?
Who is handing over pakistani citizens to foreign countries without no proof of a crime taking place.....I could go on and on.

All the above in the name of moderate islam.

 

[dabong1]

If the division within society is that between those who condone violence and oppression and those who choose moderation and freedom, then there is nothing to do but embrace this division, and work to rout out those who subscribe to the former by every means possible - education, development, and if need be, military action.

The United States had its civil war, those that supported slavery, racism and oppression were defeated - we may need to have ours.

These secular politicians and generals have been running the country not the mullahs.

Get rid of the people that have been running the country for the past 60 years....all the ones you support,and maybe we might progress to a better future.

I agree with you lets have a revolution and usher in a true islamic welfare state and get rid of those people that have given no education/healthcare to the people...the army,PML,PPP.

 

[roadrunner]

Sir i am not saying that military is Enemy of Pakistan. but i said about the leadership. can u tell me any leader in past made any serious effort to provide education to the poor part of the country.
they dont want, if people got education then they will be able to raise their voice against their corruption. the people go to USA to get Govt. so what we can expect from them.

i dont think you can blame this on leaders or any government. Colonialism is what caused Pakistan's poor literacy. Not the leaders. They have improved it (as well as being highly corrupt and could have done a better job like Musharraf).

 

[roadrunner]

Doesn't work like that. You have to be able to look at the context of each

Who gave these people training and weapons?

To fight the Soviets occupation (good reason)

Who overthrew an elected government?

To get rid of NS who had taken the country to default (good reason)

Who is bombing his own countrymen?

To get rid of Al Qaeda and stabilize Pakistan (good reason)

Who ignored a supreme court judgment to allow nawaaz to stay in pakistan?

You want NS to stay?

Who ordered the masaacre of lal masjid?

To get rid of kidnappers and murderers in the name of Islam and stabilize Pakistan (good reason)

Who is selling the country assets to foreigners?

Dude, learn some economics. Privatization increases corruption, fdi will decrease it. It's obvious why Bhutto and NS wanted to privatize. This is one of the worst arguments/reasons you've come out with (and you've made some pretty bad ones). So there is a good reason to increase FDI.

Who has dropped all corruption cases against benazir?

This noone agrees with, but on the one hand you want NS allowed in (one corrupt man) on the other you want BB to be prosecuted. Every argument needs consistence, of which you have none. The reason for dropping corruption charges against BB, was so that Musharraf could form a majority with a party other than the MMA. The MMA is a backward, idiot filled party who have managed to put the NWFP back 5 years with their moronic laws. The best interests of Pakistan lie in a Musharraf led, Bhutto-leashed (so she is accountable to Musharraf), government. I support this coalition. So I guess the corruption charges must be dropped (good reason again).

Who is handing over pakistani citizens to foreign countries without no proof of a crime taking place.....I could go on and on.

Pakistan ISI does not randomly select people and hand them to foreign countries. This must be another one of those things your "friends" in the army/ISI told you sitting in your armchair at home. (false argument)

All the above in the name of moderate islam.

Now can you go through the list provided for you, and give the same reasons for the extremist's actions? I doubt it. There's a reason for everything. ALL of Musharraf's actions have been for the best interests of Pakistan. Go through AM's list or my list, and tell me how those actions have been in the best interests of Pakistan (for example trying to blow up hotels where foreigners visit).

 

[Awaaz]

THOSE were created and trained by the Pakistan to fight in Afghanistan and Kashmir then. Now they are enemies of Pakistan?

Why blame them? Instead of providing education, your government trained them to use Ak-47 and make bombs. You exploited their poverty and religious belief. You preached them the version of Islam that they practice now. You preached them the jihad culture. You need mercenaries to fight in Afghanistan.

Why don't I see people from Punjab province being sent to fight in Afghanistan and Kashmir? Why didn't the Pakistan government used the Punjabis to fight those wars?

So, its only the responsibility of these tribal to liberate Kashmir and Afghanistan. Only these people are bound to the religious duty and to die to please the GOD.




You mean the army?

There is no difference in pathan punjabi sindhi baloch when it involves external matters, we always have our differnces but what unites us is that we know other nations have bad intentions towards us such as india etc and this unites us together to face the common enemy.

 

[IceCold]

There is no difference in pathan punjabi sindhi baloch when it involves external matters, we always have our differnces but what unites us is that we know other nations have bad intentions towards us such as india etc and this unites us together to face the common enemy.

Finally something encouraging from you Awaaz. As people we are one and we will remain one, differences are created by the enemies of pakistan and due to our pathetic politicans who have always used people of pakistan regardless of their ethnic as they political toys and created differences.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

wait and watch!

 

[dabong1]

Doesn't work like that. You have to be able to look at the context of each.

To fight the Soviets occupation (good reason).

The question was "who gave them the training"....not "why they where given training".
At least answer the question!

To get rid of NS who had taken the country to default (good reason) .

"Doesn't work like that. You have to be able to look at the context of each."

10 years of military/economic sanctions/penalties/restrictions on the civilian govt and then the nuclear test took the country to the economic situation to it what was under NS.

To get rid of Al Qaeda and stabilize Pakistan (good reason) .

So you think the tribesman are members of Al Qaeda?.....only a handful of people must think pakistan is more stable now then what it was under the previous leadership.

You want NS to stay? .

YES......

To get rid of kidnappers and murderers in the name of Islam and stabilize Pakistan (good reason) .

lol

Dude, learn some economics. Privatization increases corruption, fdi will decrease it. It's obvious why Bhutto and NS wanted to privatize. This is one of the worst arguments/reasons you've come out with (and you've made some pretty bad ones). So there is a good reason to increase FDI. .

Are you sure its me that has to learn economics or you?

This noone agrees with, but on the one hand you want NS allowed in (one corrupt man) on the other you want BB to be prosecuted. Every argument needs consistence, of which you have none. The reason for dropping corruption charges against BB, was so that Musharraf could form a majority with a party other than the MMA. The MMA is a backward, idiot filled party who have managed to put the NWFP back 5 years with their moronic laws. The best interests of Pakistan lie in a Musharraf led, Bhutto-leashed (so she is accountable to Musharraf), government. I support this coalition. So I guess the corruption charges must be dropped (good reason again)..

What are you talking about?
Let BB and NS into the country....when did i say dont press charges against NS?
Is that you jumping to your own conclusions again.

"Every argument needs consistence, of which you have none"
So i guess the MMA where also a "backward, idiot filled party" when they where supporting mushy.

Pakistan ISI does not randomly select people and hand them to foreign countries. This must be another one of those things your "friends" in the army/ISI told you sitting in your armchair at home. (false argument)..

Have started dreaming again?
I have had friends that have fought for the taliban and family members that have been fighting in kashmir.
I have been to the NWFP and afghanistan.
I have been "on the ground" unlike yourself.
Armchair academics ,and i use the word "academic" in the most liberal sense like yourself have seen the taliban/mujahdeen on tv or read something on website somewhere about them and you think your experts.....go meet some and then talk about them.

It reminds me of the top HAMAS expert in the USA has never met a HAMAS member......sounds very familiar.

Now can you go through the list provided for you, and give the same reasons for the extremist's actions? I doubt it. There's a reason for everything. ALL of Musharraf's actions have been for the best interests of Pakistan. Go through AM's list or my list, and tell me how those actions have been in the best interests of Pakistan (for example trying to blow up hotels where foreigners visit).

Practice what you preach.

 

[F.O.X]

wait and watch!

Yes Wait & Watch, but then it will be to late for you!


Regards
Wilco

 

[dabong1]

wait and watch!

Salim how you wish there was a punjabi/sindhi/baluchi/pahtaan split.
Sorry to dash your silly little wet dream but the only people that will be splitting up will be the indians............allah willing into little states that pakistan can have peace with.