UAE, Pakistan and Mirage 2000-9s

[Muhammad Omar]

If we want M2K9 rather go for J-10C and J-31 and J-11 in future and BLOCK III of JF-17

 

[帅的一匹]

Sir,
Not smoking anything except polluted air.

150-200 Jf-17's are required to replace F-7s. Historically PAF has liked to keep two western and two eastern platforms. If we keep this tradition then JF-17's and F-7PG's would remain till 5th gen is available.

M2K was to replace Mirage III/V and F1's. M2K-9 being the most advanced version bearing most of the technologies of the Rafale would bring a new spectrum to the JF-17 program. Something countries using Mirages would like to see in the JF-17.

Rafales and EFT are out of question. SU-35 and J-11 is also out of question. This leaves F-16's, M2K and Gripen as the single engine options. F-16's and Gripen are out of question this leaves only one option M2K's, now the only problem is price and specification.

PAF would not opt for the J-31 till China guaranties it would also induct it. This new aircraft would mature not before 2025-2030 some thing PAF can not afford with the Indian's rapidly increasing their 4.5++ aircraft.


You want only 290-300 4 - 4.5 gen aircraft? This is no best case scenario.


Even though it is being fast tracked for 2019 but it would not have evolved till 2025-2027 at the earliest.


Sir,
You realize you are talking about PAF. They are using Mirage III/V till now. So the ERA is still there for the M2K.
We have to realize JF-17 and F-16 are not enough for what PAF might face in the near future. J-10's would only give numerical superiority but not the technological edge and diversified weapons. A similar option to the J-10's could be the T-50 Golden Eagle provided PAF gets the ones in use of Korean Air Force.

For Rafales we would require a dedicated air-superiority aircraft probably a western one. However things are not looking bright.
Chinese and western 5th gen options would take time, so why not fight asymetrical

T50 is a training jet（Max speed 1.5 Mach), and J10 is a fighter jet(max speed 2.0 Mach). Completely different.

Correct I am agree



I think you miss out J-10B/C option



Just in case if M2K9 is not accessible for Pakistan. Then what do you think about J-10B/C. and is there any comparison between M2K9 and J-10B/C especially is there any Fly by wire for J-10B/C

J10A/B/C has three axis and four redundant digital fly by wire.

 

[Humble Analyst]

They are still there no body bought them. We need to restart talks. F35 is coming to Europe and all those F16s will be replaced we will twice the number in half the price which India paid for Rafael.


If I oppose Mirage, I become a troll. Come on man get over the idea no Mirages only F16s or JF 17

And what is wrong with considering Mirages. Mirage 2000 is a vey good offensive weapon, more dependable than F16. If you would understand the limitation of F16, would have refrained from this comment. Open minds and positive discussions are hard?

So, here is the bold and brash option. Muster the funds to buy cutting edge technology. Sell an arm and a leg if needed. Eat grass if you must. Take a loan. Impose a new tax. Do what it takes to buy the latest technology to complement JF-17.

I will be even more bold. Use the funds to buy Rafale. India causing problem? Now here is my question: why can't UAE tell France that either we get Rafales as good as UAE, or UAE pulls the plug on their deal. You feel UAE won't do that for us? I ask you: why are we buying their old junk so they can move on to Rafale?

Calling Mirage 2009 junk great, what about M2K9 replacing Mirage V for the strike role. Come on open you mind, if Mirage V are still PAF strike planes after 40 years of flying sure 13 year old Mirage M2K9 have a lot left in them. F16 have a lot of issues in terms of restrictions.

There is nothing false in there it is an assessment and please instead of giving a collective statement try to prove me wrong. Only 22 of the Mirages UAE has are equiped with advanced counter measures and rest are just old ones upgraded.

Buying those Mirages is a waste of money. With the new F 35 coming in almost many countries will be retiring more advanced F16 why not go for them or Australian F18 which are to be retired.

EFF Solah has a lot of restrictions and strings, hope you know that or you are pretending that nothing like this is present.

 

[tarrar]

Bad or Good Idea, it all depends on next 3 to 6 month...forget about F-16s if Trumps plays hardball with Pakistan, even getting the spares for current F-16 fleet will be difficult. But if he plays nice then we might be able to get some more F-16s and that might be a better option than Mirage-2000-9.

F-16 will always be under USA control, can't be modified them without asking USA.

Acquiring 24 to 36 modern 4th generation fighter will cost money, between 2 to 4 billions.

In my opinion F16's are done & PAF will rely on Turkey for upgrades & spare parts for its existing fleet. There are no more new F16's for PAF & Trump won't sell them to us thanks to incompetent & corrupt politicians in our country who can't speak for Pakistan in international forums & also can't defend Pakistans interests. Secondly, India will now easily lobby against Pakistan.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir ji Pak not going to get these Mirage, seems this news is very old. Meanwhile, it has emerged that the UAE has deployed Mirage 2000-9 fighters to Eritrea in support of operations in Yemen @Khafee

Hi,

I already know that---. You got to do something to get some excitement on this board---you know---to get the blood circulation going strong---otherwise it gets boring---.

And what is wrong with considering Mirages. Mirage 2000 is a vey good offensive weapon, more dependable than F16. If you would understand the limitation of F16, would have refrained from this comment. Open minds and positive discussions are hard?


Calling Mirage 2009 junk great, what about M2K9 replacing Mirage V for the strike role. Come on open you mind, if Mirage V are still PAF strike planes after 40 years of flying sure 13 year old Mirage M2K9 have a lot left in them. F16 have a lot of issues in terms of restrictions.


EFF Solah has a lot of restrictions and strings, hope you know that or you are pretending that nothing like this is present.

Hi,

Pakistani kids don't realize that the F16 is one flip of a switch away from Electronic sanctions.

Just like the sec. state told the greek envoy---" did you really think that you could use our equipment against each other "---regarding their conflict with Trukey---when the american supplied greek and turkish ships were facing each other?

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

I think you miss out J-10B/C option

It seems you did not read the entire post. There is mention of J-10 and also an alternate.

T50 is a training jet（Max speed 1.5 Mach), and J10 is a fighter jet(max speed 2.0 Mach). Completely different.

My comparison was not based on speed alone. It covered other possibilities like the role that PAF could use these aircraft. PAF would like to deny areal supremacy to the IAF over Pakistan. To fulfill this they would require either Air Superiority aircraft which would have a High RCS.

J-10 B/C having DSI would be in the same speed range as the T-50 and JF-17, however the only advantage is payload and range. This advantage increases the RCS which would be a disadvantage in case of superior range of the BVR's carried on IAF aircraft.

T-50 would give second low cost aircraft and double up as lead in fighter trainer along the JF-17 and JF-17 B. This would significantly reduce the training load on the F-16's, moreover free the F-16's for deep strike missions.

Here is a recent article regarding the T-50FA and how it compares with the F-16blk 52. updated June 2016.

https://rhk111smilitaryandarmspage....e-to-the-f-16c-block-52-viper-september-2013/

 

[帅的一匹]

In no way T50FA can compare itself to F16blk52. Be it radar,engine,aerodynamics, weapons,payload. J10b has IRST, which can track stealthy target within 60km, and with RCS smaller than 1 sqm. Per your saying, J10b/c is even inferior to T50FA. Ok, I better give up in this thread. I'm done. A50 (attacking version of T50FA) installs APG-67(designed for F20, a variant of F5 Tiger), while J10b has a AESA range over 180KM. The Max speed of J10b is 2.0 Mach and only 1.5 Mach for A50. The Russian 99M1 can produce 135KN wet thrust while A50's F404-GE-102 only produce Max 78.7N thrust. If PAF doesn't want J10b doesn't mean it is crap, period.

J10b/c can carry PL12 and PL15, this along will overwhelm A50 in any circumstances.

While A50 only carries AIM-9.

Compare T50FA to J10b/c is completely a humiliation.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

In no way T50FA can compare itself to F16blk52. Be it radar,engine,aerodynamics, weapons,payload. j10b has IRST, which can track stealthy target within 60KM, and with RCS smaller than 1 SQM. Per your saying, J10b/c is even inferior to T50FA. Ok, I better give up in this thread. I'm done. The detection range of A50' APG67 radar is 150 KM, while J10b has a AESA range over 180KM. The Max speed of J10b is 2.0 Mach and only 1.5 Mach for A50. the Russian 99M1 can provide 135KN wet thrust while F404-GE-102 only produce Max 78.7N thrust. If PAF doesn't want J10b doesn't mean it is crap, period.

J10b/c can carry PL12 and PL15, this along will overwhelm A50 in any circumstances.

While A50 only carries AIM-9.

Compare T50FA to J10b/c is completely a humiliation.

Brother,
The comparison was for the role...hence the T-50 can be used. No point in having J-10...
You have to realise PAF would not like to make JF-17 second tier and also China would not like J-10 in such a role. Bad for publicity and moral.

 

[帅的一匹]

Brother,
The comparison was for the role...hence the T-50 can be used. No point in having J-10...
You have to realise PAF would not like to make JF-17 second tier and also China would not like J-10 in such a role. Bad for publicity and moral.

T50FA is not cheap. As a trainer for F16, it's quite capable. The configuration is similar. If someday I have a chance to meet PAF chief, I will ask him to give out a reason why PAF doesn't want J10b/c. I'm a persistent man, I want to know the answer.

 

[Tiger Awan]

T50FA is not cheap. As a trainer for F16, it's quite capable. The configuration is similar. If someday I have a chance to meet PAF chief, I will ask him to give out a reason why PAF doesn't want J10b/c. I'm a persistent man, I want to know the answer.

Same question can be asked about the aircraft on which this thread is based. Both ACs would have added something new to our airforce but I think the time to buy these 4th generation aircrafts is gone. Not because they are outdated or JF-17 is answer to all the problems PAF may face in future but I think its the financial strain. Ideally PAF must be thinking about 5th generation aircraft and they dont come cheap. Spending money on a 4th Generation aircraft now means getting it around 2020 would have left us with little money to spend and our 5th Generation aircraft will be delayed further. So my humble guess is that they are compromising right now to be ready for future. Is this the right strategy ?? I dont know.

 

[royalharris]

Their money,their pilots life,their blood,they can waste whatever they want
Their idea is so ridiculous,let them be

 

[帅的一匹]

Same question can be asked about the aircraft on which this thread is based. Both ACs would have added something new to our airforce but I think the time to buy these 4th generation aircrafts is gone. Not because they are outdated or JF-17 is answer to all the problems PAF may face in future but I think its the financial strain. Ideally PAF must be thinking about 5th generation aircraft and they dont come cheap. Spending money on a 4th Generation aircraft now means getting it around 2020 would have left us with little money to spend and our 5th Generation aircraft will be delayed further. So my humble guess is that they are compromising right now to be ready for future. Is this the right strategy ?? I dont know.

I'm just joking, how can i ask this kind of bold question to PAF chief on person. PAF has its own choice, it shall be respected.

Their money,their pilots life,their blood,they can waste whatever they want

Can't just do it, they are our closest ally.

 

[Khafee]

In my opinion F16's are done & PAF will rely on Turkey for upgrades & spare parts for its existing fleet. There are no more new F16's for PAF & Trump won't sell them to us thanks to incompetent & corrupt politicians in our country who can't speak for Pakistan in international forums & also can't defend Pakistans interests. Secondly, India will now easily lobby against Pakistan.

Without US approval no spares from Turkey or anywhere else (except Israel)

 

[帅的一匹]

Pakistanis relying on f16 in a USA govt led by trump is a huge risk. The man is a red neck isolationist. He I'd more likely to start drone strikes in Pakistan than to give you grant aided fighters.

The thunder at present has had only minor improvements between block one and two.

To make the grade to a real fourth generation fighters that is 4.5 generation standard the level of change needed would be very costly and very significant.

To add a new western engine would require structure changes which will.add weight and need massive testing .you may want a engine that can supercruise China engine technology is way behind the rest .they rely on Russian engines at present.

If you change the airframe to accomdate new engine then you need a better composite airframe as well to go unstable and to put composites materials into airframe.

Then you need to add a hms and irst capability .
all of these options are potentially available but the cost and time to implement will be huge..

You would double the cost of each fighters you would have a gripen level.capability.

You draw backs five to seven years plus to make changes and hundreds of millions of cost.

Its all about money and time

The airframe of JF17 decides it can't make super cruise. The original intention of JF17 project is to develop an affordable 4th gen fighter in large quantity. Every platform has its limit, so as JF17. There won't be any major change in its fuselage, but Radar/EW/avionics/weapon package. JF17'had made tremendous achievement compared to LCA(didn't see volume induction after 30 years). We can say it's a successful project.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

let them (MK2) come in our inventory if they are coming as cost effective option.