UAE Mirage to PAF and SH to IAF Extract

[Super Falcon]

so we have reached to the end 50 percent members agreed to buy fighter jets from uae but 50 percent did not agreed hope discussion is closed now sick of same fighting

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

instead of buying those mirages we should buy 40 rafaels or euro fighters.

 

[pak-yes]

noop at 100 million dollars each Rafale is out of our range.And Besides with that INDIAN MMRCA tender France might not be willing to sell.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

pak yes 40 euro typhoons are a good bang for the buck plus saudis are already using them.And whats 400 million?against 40 world class jets to keep enemies fearing.

 

[pak-yes]

Ummm 40 Rafale will be 4 billion dollars not 400 million.

And 40 typhoons will even be more expensive.

Our PAF even don't want to buy 60 mirage for 1-1.25 billion dollars so these two planes are pretty much out of question.

 

[qaisar52]

Dear Brothers,
Iin my opinion Pakistan government is trying to buy these Fighters from UAE with a very little coast and may be on loan which we will not pay after some years with giving any reason to our friends to forget the loan payment. For this I think 2 reasons.

a. Mr. Zardari is close friend to UAE and try to build trust in PAK army.

B. ACM Mr Qamar Suliman also served in UAE as a Teacher Fighter Pilots and can have some influence in the UAE air force to get these birds.

What you brothers think?

 

[pak-yes]

Yup we can easily get these even for free .we just need to play our cards correctly.But even if we get them with money they are more than their worth.

 

[mean_bird]

Dear Brothers,
Iin my opinion Pakistan government is trying to buy these Fighters from UAE with a very little coast and may be on loan which we will not pay after some years with giving any reason to our friends to forget the loan payment. For this I think 2 reasons.

a. Mr. Zardari is close friend to UAE and try to build trust in PAK army.

B. ACM Mr Qamar Suliman also served in UAE as a Teacher Fighter Pilots and can have some influence in the UAE air force to get these birds.

What you brothers think?

a. Mr. Zardari could care less about his own relatives let alone use his friendship or build trust in army. It all depends on the percentage being offered to him. Remember why we didn't buy the Mirages in the first place?

b. see (a) above

 

[Super Falcon]

Dear Brothers,
Iin my opinion Pakistan government is trying to buy these Fighters from UAE with a very little coast and may be on loan which we will not pay after some years with giving any reason to our friends to forget the loan payment. For this I think 2 reasons.

a. Mr. Zardari is close friend to UAE and try to build trust in PAK army.

B. ACM Mr Qamar Suliman also served in UAE as a Teacher Fighter Pilots and can have some influence in the UAE air force to get these birds.

What you brothers think?

i have one word to say u stupid idea and if H.H LATE SHEIKH ZAYED BIN SULTAN has been today there was a chance but not now no chance without money may ALMIGHTY ALLAH rest him in peace INSHAHALLAH

 

[MastanKhan]

Maxim,

God bless you for what you do and thankyou for your post---and if it wasn't for men like you, we will be worst off.

Now coming back to the discussion---reading your post, I believe that you and a lots of other are missing the point. The loyalty of the fighter pilot to do his job right is never in doubt---it is the procurement of the machine we are talking about.

I requested in my last post---why don't we talk about the biggest lie of the PAF----the f 16 sanctions---pakistanis are hating mad the u s of a for so many years---and the u s of a had done nothing wrong---paf jumped into the pond knowing well in advance that the sanctions were coming.

Secondly---the paf knew in the 80's that india was in desperate need of an authentic strike and interceptor aircraft---its only source was of 2nd rate aircraft from russia---it had nowhere to go except to france to get the western equipment---why did the paf no focus on procuring mirage 2000 at that to cut off that venue of the iaf---a coupe de grace---iaf stuck with russia---iaf could not go to the u s at that time and neither could they go to france then.

The french were desperate to sell that aircraft to us---this would have been a stroke of genius on pakistan and paf---but they stumbled---their cockiness of riding the raging bull made them blind---do you remember the 80's---do you remember the strut in the steps of pak pilots---up above ws Allah and down below were the paf pilots---they thought that they could walk on water---the sanction gave them a very nice dip in the freezing pond.

Then comes the 90's with the m2k fiasco---deal is done there are money issues---india is screaming murder---the french are going ahead---then comes out the accusations of bribes---30---40---50---million---100 million. The deal is cancelled by a nincompoop of a prime minister who has no vision of what it could do---.

Pakistan is so deep into discussing the bribery issue, that they lose focus of the real thing---what is the m2k going to do for us---it would put us at par with the iaf----at least 80% of iaf---. BFD---big f------g deal---I would have paid twice that much to be at parity with indian air force---just for the sake of political power balance---and also that you my pilot can ride the the skies with impunity one more time in your shiny new machine and the enemy fears you one more time.

There were bribes paid for the augusta submarines---if we had cancelled that purchase---what the heck we would have had now for the navy---. Nothing zilch nada.

Weapons purchases of such magnitude which can tilt the political balance are just not cancelled on whims and rumours---the welafer of the sate is judged---the pros and cons---the benefits are judged and compared to the losses---in the long run it is seen what would benefit the country. The purchase order can go ahead---the criminals are not running away---we can always catch them later---guess what---15 years later the frencg judiciary is after them---the fathers of a nation ought to have vision---honetsy is wonderful---but in order to succeed, you ought to have some larceny in you as well.

By the year 98---paf would have been a m2k centric airforce---parity would iaf would have made india think many a times before they cut off the water supply on our rivers.

I neither doubt your valour, nor your sincerity to your job---I am talking about something different---a soldier doesnot have to worry about---.

People who were making the deals at that time were technically not qualified to make through with the sale---all their purchases were made on emotion---and the cancellation of the m2k was based on similiar grounds of general honesty---.

Coming down to 9 / 11 and afterwards---paf decided that it had no need for a high end aircraft because india was no threat---what were they thinking---. India lulled them into a slumber and when your air marshalls were asleep, it stuck the knife right in the flank---the guzzoo.

It is an honour to talk to a fighter jock like you---but to believe that the JF 17 is the wunderkind is a fallacy. It will be a very good aircraft in the light air craft role---but the big boyz will still rule the high perch.

 

[sonicboom]

Very interesting debate and both sides have put forward some valid facts to get across their point of view.

However, I do have some questions as follows for the experts:

1. As we all know, technology has created improved weapon systems, but at the same time has dramatically increased the costs for those systems. It is very possible that technological advances are not always the answer to every situation. The nature of the air war has changed, and close-range visual combat (dog fights) might never happen again. The proliferation of new enhanced capabilities of radars, with incredibly agile short-range missiles now makes visual-range combat extremely dangerous, and long-range air-to-air missiles have improved significantly, allowing slower fighters to more easily shoot down opponents. If this argument is valid, then in my opinion, the platform becomes irrelevant to some extent. Do you agree?

2. For close air support, why not to acquire an aircraft which is relatively inexpensive and can be used purely for close air support. Is it the time to accept less expensive, less capable aircraft with our limited budget in order to have the number of airplanes we need to adequately provide close air support to the army on the ground?

3. How about acquiring more Surface-to-Air Missiles for a fraction of the cost as compared to fighter jets. New Surface-to-Air Missiles are faster, fly higher and farther, and are less susceptible to jamming and countermeasures. These new missiles can engage an airborne target at altitudes as low as 75 feet or as high as 50,000 feet or more and the ability to simultaneously engage many targets. For fighters, they pose a challenge as tough as-if not tougher than-the best competitor aircraft. For $75 million to $100 million or more (just guessing), one can probably buy at least half dozen launchers of modern design and can cover a large area.

Regards

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Sir Mastan, is it correct that french offered Mirage Assembly plant in Kamra in 70s to be operated by them first and later they will hand it over it to PAF which was refused by GOP.
Second, during 71 war just before the start, submarine Ghazi requested Islamabad to allow it to fire at the Indian Aircraft carrier as it was just under it and was not allowed.

 

[MastanKhan]

GKP,

I have heard rumours about mirage factory---Muradk and other paf members can give more info about it.

About ghazi and india a/c carrier--I am not privy to that information.


Sonicboom,

Pakistan does indeed need some batterires of long range ground to air missiles of the type S400. Spada is well and good---but we need something that can fly higher and go deeper.

The combination of a good interceptor alongwith a long range missile is deadly---that is where a plane like the JF 17 can become deadly because of the force multiplier.

Smaller fighters also have smaller radars and lesser jamming capabilities---a lesser number of long distance missiles per aircraft---smaller radars mean lesser strength.

I believe that our colleague ' Gambit ' has covered that topic very well in one of his posts---explaining it with illustrations how the larger radar works as compared to a smaller radar keeping in mind that they are similiar in abilities.

 

[Sinnerman108]

GKP,

I have heard rumours about mirage factory---Muradk and other paf members can give more info about it.

About ghazi and india a/c carrier--I am not privy to that information.


Sonicboom,

Pakistan does indeed need some batterires of long range ground to air missiles of the type S400. Spada is well and good---but we need something that can fly higher and go deeper.

The combination of a good interceptor alongwith a long range missile is deadly---that is where a plane like the JF 17 can become deadly because of the force multiplier.

Smaller fighters also have smaller radars and lesser jamming capabilities---a lesser number of long distance missiles per aircraft---smaller radars mean lesser strength.

I believe that our colleague ' Gambit ' has covered that topic very well in one of his posts---explaining it with illustrations how the larger radar works as compared to a smaller radar keeping in mind that they are similiar in abilities.

Boss,

It may also be worth adding here the "SUKHOI" chance.
PAF was offered Sukhoi Flankers in early 90s and 2 planes indeed
were tested and tried by PAF but later refused by PAF.

A bigger plane carries more equipment and Soviet design produces the biggest planes.

I will be thankful if some one can shed some light on the thought process that PAF had then and now ?

 

[Chanakyaa]

Boss,

It may also be worth adding here the "SUKHOI" chance.
PAF was offered Sukhoi Flankers in early 90s and 2 planes indeed
were tested and tried by PAF but later refused by PAF.

A bigger plane carries more equipment and Soviet design produces the biggest planes.

I will be thankful if some one can shed some light on the thought process that PAF had then and now ?

Salman can u plz provide a Credible Source on when PAF was offered a Flanker and Most Importantly when did they have a CHANCE to Test it ?

Thanks.