Turkiye's Minister of National Defense Guler: Agreement with Pakistan for KAAN is about to be signed

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

So the PAF certainly wants a less Chinese JF17 if you know what I mean. Their trial run for a block 4 is going to be trying systems on overhauled block 1 and 2. They have approached Turkey for this and Turkey is willing to talk. But in typical Pakistani fashion this pakistan push comes in fits and then disappears. It doesn't seem to have the force-wide backing that such an undertaking might need. But there are certainly some sections of the force thinking along those lines.

Ironically, the 'less Chinese JF-17' was the original JF-17... Thales RC400, Thales TopOwl-F, MBDA MICA, etc.

 

[SBD-3]

- Malaysia and Indonesia are being speculated as the fourth partner, but there is no official announcement yet. Another noteworthy issue is that in recent months, defense industry, national security, bilateral trade and renewable energy investment agreements with the UAE, Qatar and KSA with a total value of more than $70 billion have been signed. The Gulf region is not far from the project.

Indonesia is already finding it hard to fund their partnership obligations under KF-21 program. To expect that they'll be jumping over to TFX is a bit far fetched.
In GCC, maybe Qatar can pour some money in TFX but Saudis are already pushing for an entry into CGAP of UK, Italy and Japan. UAE might either follow the lead of Saudis or would look towards F-35 from US first before considering TFX program. Malaysia can look into it but they are quite unpredictable in their procurements.
Nigeria might be a customer as they're contemplating a partnership in Checkmate program. And given the development speed of Felon, Checkmate program might also suffer from the problems of Russian industrial complex.

There's no Block-4 on the official record, not yet anyways. However, as @arslank03 found, there are some reasons to believe that one could be in the pipeline -- e.g., Pakistan's in-house AESA radar, EW/ECM and AAM programs.

Personally, I think the PAF will continue ordering JF-17s through the long-term -- even in incremental batches -- to gradually phase out the F-7PGs and Mirage III/5s (including ROSE variants). I can also see the PAF look at replacing the older JF-17s (Block-1s and Block-2s) with newer JF-17s, especially as there are some clear 'breaks' between the 1/2 and B/3 (e.g., hybrid FBW vs. 3-axis FBW; AESA radar compatibility; etc).

The PAF has also invested in configuring the JF-17 for the strike role via IREK, AZB, Taimoor ALCM, etc. It's clear that the Thunder's poised to assume a much bigger responsibility in air-to-ground/surface missions. You'd want to carry forward that work into newer airframes with even better radars and electronics.

Finally, even if the KAAN hits a snag (e.g., delays in the TR Motor engine development), we'll still see lots of other subsystems materialize and mature in the meantime, like the Aselsan TULGAR HMD/S, new-gen EW/ECM, the IRST and EOTS, manned-unmanned teaming etc. The PAF might be interested in applying these to its fleet sooner than later, so they could look at applying them to the JF-17.

So, there are clear reasons for a Block-4 and even Block-5 to exist. I think we could see a Block-4 in 2027-2029.

I don't think the "domestication" of JF-17 would technically count as a Block-4. Jeff is envisaged as a Mig-21 of the future. So there are certain logical limits, beyond which it will not evolve. So we might have more domestic Jeff but not the ultra-modernized jeff because that simply goes against the objective of having it in the first place. And that's precisely why PAF inducted J-10CEs instead of putting that money in Jeff.

 

[Yawm al-qiyāma]

It would be good if Saudi, UAE and Qatar joined the programme aswel.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Pakistan is restoring the balance of power in a cost efficient manner as it always has.

Indian economy may be larger than Pakistan but that's just because its population is also larger - and notably more hungry than Sudan, let alone Pakistan.

I hate to burst the bubble here. But there is no balance of power anymore. Pakistani policy today is to project force that makes an Indian act painful. Our balance of power approach is evolving. Now it is very much small skirmishes with lower nuclear threshold to avoid a large scale war. There is no balance of power where over a protracted war Pakistan can prevail or equalize India.

There are two theaters where Pakistani capabilities can blunt an Indian ingress or can project an offensive punch, and one of those heavily leverages the terrain. In the remaining four one is medium and three others are bleak. Talk to serious war fighters (not chest thumpers) and you'll get this sobering analysis.

Also Economic strength is and has always been the single largest contributor to war fighting. We cannot overlook Indian capacity to wage war and sustain it over time. Pakistan on the other hand is teetering in food and fuel supplies in normal times. To think we can fight wars in this condition is not practical.

 

[TheSolution]

I hate to burst the bubble here. But there is no balance of power anymore. Pakistani policy today is to project force that makes an Indian act painful. Our balance of power approach is evolving. Now it is very much small skirmishes with lower nuclear threshold to avoid a large scale war. There is no balance of power where over a protracted war Pakistan can prevail or equalize India.

There are two theaters where Pakistani capabilities can blunt an Indian ingress or can project an offensive punch, and one of those heavily leverages the terrain. In the remaining four one is medium and three others are bleak. Talk to serious war fighters (not chest thumpers) and you'll get this sobering analysis.

And it's only going to get worse as the imbalance grows stronger in favour of India.

Future is looking pessimistic, especially because of the level of state negligence or lack of action to fix things.

 

[FuturePAF]

IMO the PAF will wait for the TR Motor-equipped variant of the KAAN. In fact, the smart (but also risky) option would be to invest in the TR Motor turbofan engine so that we could co-produce it in Pakistan, develop deeper expertise of turbofan engines, etc.

If there's any delay or setback to the KAAN, then the PAF will simply order additional J-10CEs and JF-17 Block-3 (or Block-4) fighters to supplant older jets. The radar and avionics suite of both jets will continue evolving, and, as importantly, large air forces will continue flying 4+/4.5-gen fighters with so-called 5th-gen fighters (USAF, RAF, PLAAF, IAF, included).

If anything needs urgency at this point, it'd be indigenous UCAV development.

If the PAF commits to buying more J-10s, what are the prospects of the PAC building the WS-10B under license in the lead up to contributing towards the KAAN fighter? The PAF has 40+ years maintaining the F-100-PW engines, perhaps that knowledge can be useful in how to field the WS-10B and Pakistan can work with China on minor tweaks to the WS-10B that could benefit both nations.

Btw, found some an interesting post comparing the F16 engines by GE and PW. PW engines excel in some unique places that maybe useful for an air superiority fighter, but by and large GE engines seem to perform better overall.

https://www.quora.com/How-does-an-F...share=970c728c&srid=hYhlps&target_type=answer

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

I hate to burst the bubble here. But there is no balance of power anymore. Pakistani policy today is to project force that makes an Indian act painful. Our balance of power approach is evolving. Now it is very much small skirmishes with lower nuclear threshold to avoid a large scale war. There is no balance of power where over a protracted war Pakistan can prevail or equalize India.

There are two theaters where Pakistani capabilities can blunt an Indian ingress or can project an offensive punch, and one of those heavily leverages the terrain. In the remaining four one is medium and three others are bleak. Talk to serious war fighters (not chest thumpers) and you'll get this sobering analysis.

Also Economic strength is and has always been the single largest contributor to war fighting. We cannot overlook Indian capacity to wage war and sustain it over time. Pakistan on the other hand is teetering in food and fuel supplies in normal times. To think we can fight wars in this condition is not practical.

Hence, the "geostrategic" trick is to engage India in a "reinforced single front" [a term coined by Praveen Swahney] running from the Runn of Kutch to the borders of Burma. Thanks to the encirclement of China via island chains, mini NATO, AUCUS etc. it's not a far fetched idea. This very thought of the mother of all asymmetric warfare would deflate their motivation like a punctured balloon......

 

[Silicon0000]

Still No signing or official agreement ...........

 

[TheSolution]

Hence, the "geostrategic" trick is to engage India in a "reinforced single front" [a term coined by Praveen Swahney] running from the Runn of Kutch to the borders of Burma. Thanks to the encirclement of China via island chains, mini NATO, AUCUS etc. it's not a far fetched idea. This very thought of the mother of all asymmetric warfare would deflate their motivation like a punctured balloon......

Pakistan is realistically nothing compared to India.

It can't even maintain a basic healthy economy let alone compete proportionally with India's growing economic might.

Economy is the backbone of everything.

Things will only get worse for here and I don't see Pakistan mending its ways. India has too many cards to play and excess of funding and influence to do so. Pakistan has a bunch of delusional people high on thin air.

 

[dBSPL]

 

[_NOBODY_]

What are they saying in the video?

 

[python-000]

Still No signing or official agreement ...........

 

[TheSolution]

There is no source for this. He just made it all up.

 

[Silicon0000]

Thanks dear for sharing video but these videos are not a good source for these kind of news. Publicly nothing is announced yet regarding Kaan (For Drones Yes enough data is available) agreement, Yes things are going on that we all know but right now at what stage it is, we don't know.

 

[JX-1]

I hate to burst the bubble here. But there is no balance of power anymore. Pakistani policy today is to project force that makes an Indian act painful. Our balance of power approach is evolving. Now it is very much small skirmishes with lower nuclear threshold to avoid a large scale war. There is no balance of power where over a protracted war Pakistan can prevail or equalize India.

There are two theaters where Pakistani capabilities can blunt an Indian ingress or can project an offensive punch, and one of those heavily leverages the terrain. In the remaining four one is medium and three others are bleak. Talk to serious war fighters (not chest thumpers) and you'll get this sobering analysis.

Also Economic strength is and has always been the single largest contributor to war fighting. We cannot overlook Indian capacity to wage war and sustain it over time. Pakistan on the other hand is teetering in food and fuel supplies in normal times. To think we can fight wars in this condition is not practical.

In the context of South Asia, Balance of power does not refer to the ability to wage a prolonged war - that will always be in India's favour. That's not the primary concern anymore, because the newest Indian doctrine, PAS, calls for seizing huge chunks of Pakistani territory in less than a week, and assumes that will not cross the nuclear threshold.

Pakistan maintains the balance of power by deterring India from such misadventures. The key is defeating India at the skirmish level to prevent it from getting drunk on its numerical superiority and domestic propaganda, and to make it realise a war will cause destruction inside India, both conventional and nuclear.

In a short sub 2 week war, Pakistan may stand a chance of stalemate or victory, as long as it has the initiative.

No one is worried about fighting a long war with India, because if you reach that stage, defeat and therefore nuclear war is inevitable.