Azerbaijan signs partnership deal to join KAAN project

[LeGenD]

I shan't be making a comment on Pakistan, however a lack of vision and inability to accept changes decimated French armies during ww1 and ww2. When the Iraqis thought that they could hold back American armies during the first gulf War, the USA's newer and more advanced tactics decimated Iraqi forces, no one expected Iraq to lose so badly. When the Russians invaded Chechnya, their arrogance and inability to adapt led to them losing the first war, and suffering humiliation in the second even when they won.

An army must be willing to take risks in order to keep up with modern times, and give up on older doctrines.

Of course none of what I have said has anything to do with Pakistan, I am merely thinking aloud about modern military doctrines.

American Presidents such as Johnson and Nixon did not allow American forces to destroy Vietcong in the Vietnam War. Due to these two political cowards, many have assumed that the Vietcong had defeated American forces in the battlefield, this is not true.

Saddam Hussein mistook American political paralysis in the Vietnam War for lack of military power and ability to fight a war. He was up against Bush Family and it decided to close his chapter. US-led forces under political leadership of Bush Senior destroyed much of the Iraqi military capability in 1991, and US-led forces under political leadership of Bush Junior toppled Saddam regime in a blitzkrieg in 2003. And subsequent American Presidents allowed US-led forces to eliminate remnants of Saddam regime in a series of operations.

Iraq was growing and had created a formidable military force but Saddam was a misfit and brought ruin to his country.

Pakistan chooses its battles wisely but it has lost the plot in Afghanistan and undermined its bilateral relationship with US in the process. Pakistan will find it very difficult to benefit from European projects in this situation. Turkish KAAN project involves British input and technology. Not much WE can do in this situation.

 

[ProudThamizhan]

American Presidents such as Johnson and Nixon did not allow American forces to destroy Vietcong in the Vietnam War. Due to these two political cowards, many have assumed that the Vietcong had defeated American forces in the battlefield, this is not true.

Saddam Hussein mistook American political paralysis in the Vietnam War for lack of military power and ability to fight a war. He was up against Bush Family and it decided to close his chapter. US-led forces under political leadership of Bush Senior destroyed much of the Iraqi military capability in 1991, and US-led forces under political leadership of Bush Junior toppled Saddam regime in a blitzkrieg in 2003. And subsequent American Presidents allowed US-led forces to eliminate remnants of Saddam regime in a series of operations.

Iraq was growing and had created a formidable military force but Saddam was a misfit and brought ruin to his country.

Pakistan chooses its battles wisely but it has lost the plot in Afghanistan and undermined its bilateral relationship with US in the process. Pakistan will find it very difficult to benefit from European projects in this situation. Turkish KAAN project involves British input and technology. Not much WE can do in this situation.

Don’t want to distract from the main topic and mostly agree with your line of thought here. BUT I’d say Pakistan did not chose its battles wisely at all taking Kargil and 1971 for example. In both they grossly underestimated response .

 

[merzifonlu]

But what can Azerbaijan bring to the table for the KAAN project. As far as ik, they are building their own defense industry but they are in the beginning phases of it

Azerbaijan? Simple, money...

If Pakistan were partners, not money but Pakistan would put cheap and skilled labor on the table. However, it seems that Pakistan's military authorities do not believe that Turkiye will successfully complete this project. They are predicting that there will probably be a problem with the engine.

However, they are very wrong. Even if the project failed, Pakistan would not loss money, but Pakistani engineers would have learned a lot. They are incapable of even foreseeing this.

 

[ali_raza]

American Presidents such as Johnson and Nixon did not allow American forces to destroy Vietcong in the Vietnam War. Due to these two political cowards, many have assumed that the Vietcong had defeated American forces in the battlefield, this is not true.

Saddam Hussein mistook American political paralysis in the Vietnam War for lack of military power and ability to fight a war. He was up against Bush Family and it decided to close his chapter. US-led forces under political leadership of Bush Senior destroyed much of the Iraqi military capability in 1991, and US-led forces under political leadership of Bush Junior toppled Saddam regime in a blitzkrieg in 2003. And subsequent American Presidents allowed US-led forces to eliminate remnants of Saddam regime in a series of operations.

Iraq was growing and had created a formidable military force but Saddam was a misfit and brought ruin to his country.

Pakistan chooses its battles wisely but it has lost the plot in Afghanistan and undermined its bilateral relationship with US in the process. Pakistan will find it very difficult to benefit from European projects in this situation. Turkish KAAN project involves British input and technology. Not much WE can do in this situation.

americans are smart people
but pakistanis are over smart
and like they say in america
no body likes a smart ***
afghan chapter isn’t what it look on the paper
everyone took there dirty laundry there and washed it
it includes everyone
but at later stage americans were fedup of the mess
they made us a scapegoat
later to realize that chinese and russians would have a clear way in
hence we see a calm now
americans will not hesitate to do bhangra in islamabad providing it serves there interests

 

[MMM-E]

Turkish KAAN project involves British input and technology. Not much WE can do in this situation.

British input and technology ?

-- KAAN is not Joint Venture project
KAAN is a 100% Turkish Military project including IP rights
Intellectual property rights owned by Turkiye
No export license restrictions

-- There is no British technology ... Engine will be Turkish TR-MOTOR
no any agreement with ROLLS ROYCE

Turkiye paid £100 million to British BAE Systems to assist with the design of the KAAN Fighter Jet
and only ejection seat from the UK ( Martin Baker ) ... nothing else


So The UK can not block any country including Pakistan to join the KAAN project

 

[Kejo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1684648255538307074

Finally things are changing...

 

[merzifonlu]

Turkiye paid £100 million to British BAE Systems to assist with the design of the KAAN Fighter Jet
and only ejection seat from the UK ( Martin Baker )

Turkiye's expectation was that the UK would send its experienced engineers. Otherwise, why would Turkiye pay such an absurd price? But the UK sent inexperienced and mediocre engineers. For the purpose of gaining experience! In addition, the UK responded negatively to Turkiye's offer of partnership in the Tempest Project.

In summary, in the words of former SSB chief İsmail Demir, "The UK failed the sincerity test."

Thereupon, Turkiye did two things.
1-) Turkiye did not include the UK in the detailed design phase and did not extend the contract.
2-) Turkiye completely gave up on the sub-components she was planning to buy from UK, except for the ejection seat. Türkiye plans to localize even the ejection seat in the future.

In summary, @MMM-E is right, UK has no rights on Kaan.

 

[emotionless_teenage]

It's a necessity.

The air force has always been the weak link in azeri military, not out of trying mind you.

The fleet consists of rapidly obsolete Mig-29 that has very limited air to ground capability (without any futureproofing upgrade like SMT) and Su-25 which is good for CAS but ill suited for anything else (CAP, interception, point defence, being an actual fighter, etc). No amout of Hermes or TB-2 would be sufficient to fill the need for actual fighter aircraft

Nowadays the prospect of getting more modern aircraft from russia would be problemematic both due to ongoing Russia-Ukraine war and russia leaning towards armenia. Similarly getting more modern aircraft from the west would equally be problematic as they perceived the nagorno-karabakh conflict as unsavoury and would halt any support for spares the moment Azerbaijan uses western made aircraft to bomb nagorno-karabakh. Just ask Indonesia.

In the short to mid term they better hope Hurjet to proceed smoothly and have at least the same capability as TA-50/FA-50 block 5 as they needed the volume to replace both Mig-29 and Su-25

 

[air marshal]

 

[Skywalker]

I shan't be making a comment on Pakistan, however a lack of vision and inability to accept changes decimated French armies during ww1 and ww2. When the Iraqis thought that they could hold back American armies during the first gulf War, the USA's newer and more advanced tactics decimated Iraqi forces, no one expected Iraq to lose so badly. When the Russians invaded Chechnya, their arrogance and inability to adapt led to them losing the first war, and suffering humiliation in the second even when they won.

An army must be willing to take risks in order to keep up with modern times, and give up on older doctrines.

Of course none of what I have said has anything to do with Pakistan, I am merely thinking aloud about modern military doctrines.

The only vision these day establishment have is how to kill imran khan after de throning him from the PM postion.

 

[Oublious]

But what can Azerbaijan bring to the table for the KAAN project. As far as ik, they are building their own defense industry but they are in the beginning phases of it

That doesn't matter, still they have engineers and universities. They do not need to desigh the radar or EW. They could engineer the mid section like we did with F35. That will lower the work for TUSAS and the costs will go down. Hurjet is partly designed with Malesian engineers, Tusas opened a engineering office wher the team can do things what Tusas do not have time for. Did Malaysia have a aerospace company or a something to bring on the table?

Tusas have office in Pakistan wher Pakistani engineers are working for different projects. It is not money like other people writing but more the brains.

 

[Indos]

Azerbaijan? Simple, money...

If Pakistan were partners, not money but Pakistan would put cheap and skilled labor on the table. However, it seems that Pakistan's military authorities do not believe that Turkiye will successfully complete this project. They are predicting that there will probably be a problem with the engine.

However, they are very wrong. Even if the project failed, Pakistan would not loss money, but Pakistani engineers would have learned a lot. They are incapable of even foreseeing this.

Turkey asked Pakistan to join when the development is already in midway. Not Pakistani fault in my opinion. If you want to ask other country to joint the program then it should be from the start of the development or even when the program hasnt been started yet like in KFX/IFX program where South Korea approach Indonesia in 2009 and the development program is started in 2011.

 

[Oublious]

What Isreal is for Americans Azerbadjian will be the same for us. Azerbadjian will have some credits then others with KAAN project.

 

[Indos]

In summary, in the words of former SSB chief İsmail Demir, "The UK failed the sincerity test."

Thereupon, Turkiye did two things.
1-) Turkiye did not include the UK in the detailed design phase and did not extend the contract.

Very Senior and experienced design engineers are needed during early development like during preliminary design phase. Detail design needs huge engineers and it is not efficient to give detail design work package to design consultants.

Just for example, R80 civilian plane detail design phase needs around 1 million drawings and that needs massive design engineers, the most experience design engineers mostly work during preliminary design phase. PT Regio Aviasi for example make the preliminary design of R80 where many of their engineers were working for N250 and N2130 program during 1990's, but they dont have the capability to do detail design phase because they dont have enough design engineers working for them, this is why they need to cooperate with Indonesian Aerospace to do it, not because Indonesian Aerospace has better engineers, but because Indonesian Aerospace has enough design engineers to do detail design phase of any plane development.

 

[Kejo]

Turkey asked Pakistan to join when the development is already in midway. Not Pakistani fault in my opinion. If you want to ask other country to joint the program then it should be from the start of the development or even when the program hasnt been started yet like in KFX/IFX program where South Korea approach Indonesia in 2009 and the development program is started in 2011.

Comparing the Turkish-Pakistani romance to a Indonesian-S.Korean fling doesn't make sense.

Your relationship with the Koreans is transactional in nature, our relationship with Pakistan is muhabbat.

Jokes aside, Pakistan could still join but it is obvious that the decision makers in Islamabad are not planning on doing so. No one in Ankara is going to send them back empty-handed if they ask for cooperation. The Pakistanis know this which naturally causes frustration.