Turkey's STM won Pakistan Agosta 90B modernization tender

[salarsikander]

Years of ToT, building this and that. Investment in defense industry. And we can't build an egg cup by ourselves.

Turkey was way behind us in this sector. And now they are ahead of us.

Same as Korea, Japan, and Taiwan etc. So no change there, then.

A country in permanent relative decline.

So when are you coming back to Pakistan with your internationally acquired hi technskils ?

 

[war&peace]

inshallah... also 5th generation fighter that will b produced by turkey

kuch khud bhi kar lo

Can't we do anything by ourselves?

Apparently it seems we can't and that has to do with the incompetent leadership. One should ask what the hell was Agosta-90B deal with TOT, where did that TOT go...Did all those engineers die or left for better opportunities? We will never learn from one master to another....pathetic chronic dependence....
I am totally in favour of good relations with Turkey China and other friendly/brotherly nations based on mutual benefits through team-work i.e.(1) joint venture (2) ToT and joint-production. We need to develop systems ourselves and this depends on the leadership, if they won't let the institutions to develop and always look to foreign help for everything shows they have no trust in their abilities and always the money of this poor nation will be channeled out and few bigs will ofcourse fill the coffers.

 

[jamal18]

I think you have answered the question.

The assumption that 'international' skills are better than 'local' skills.

A deep inferiority complex and lack of self-confidence.

kuch khud bhi kar lo

Apparently it seems we can't and that has to do with the incompetent leadership. One should ask what the hell was Agosta-90B deal with TOT, where did that TOT go...Did all those engineers die or left for better opportunities? We will never learn from one master to another....pathetic chronic dependence....
I am totally in favour of good relations with Turkey China and other friendly/brotherly nations based on mutual benefits through team-work i.e.(1) joint venture (2) ToT and joint-production. We need to develop systems ourselves and this depends on the leadership, if they won't let the institutions to develop and always look to foreign help for everything shows they have no trust in their abilities and always the money of this poor nation will be channeled out and few bigs will ofcourse fill the coffers.

There seems to be a lack of the right psyche. Happy to play second fiddle to others.

The Koreans had a motto 'Korea can do'. The idea was that Koreans can do anything. A basic rural society built Tankers, cars computers and just about anything. And they didn't need 'international' skills; or for that matter the English language.
And they started with a lot less than us.

 

[Quwa]

Learning requires exposure, and let's be honest here, the Pakistani defence industry hasn't gotten a whole lot of it, especially in the shipbuilding and land vehicles areas.

Whether it be by contracting an external vendor to help guide a local one (e.g. in this case where STM will help KSEW), sending Pakistani students to overseas universities for STEM education, picking up consultants with valuable insights and skils, you're going to need to talk to others in order to improve.

Granted, this deal with STM isn't going to flip around KSEW, for that we will need a much more robust and comprehensive policy of indigenization that cuts across acquisitions, education, R&D funding, etc.

 

[war&peace]

I think you have answered the question.

The assumption that 'international' skills are better than 'local' skills.

A deep inferiority complex and lack of self-confidence.



There seems to be a lack of the right psyche. Happy to play second fiddle to others.

The Koreans had a motto 'Korea can do'. The idea was that Koreans can do anything. A basic rural society built Tankers, cars computers and just about anything. And they didn't need 'international' skills; or for that matter the English language.
And they started with a lot less than us.

If there was right leadership and as you said psyche, we should have started, preferrably in parallel to the development of Agosta 90-B or at least immediately after the completion of the project, developing human resource for the future projects. We had got an excellent opportunity to learn from the ToT in Agosta project, a team of skilled designers, engineers and technicians had been developed so we needed to utilise them and we had more than sufficient time to develop our own submarines from the scratch indigenuously. The upgradation project should have been a much easier task. Why are we looking for Chinese or any other options......I mean I can't fathom the inferiority complex hardwired in the minds of our military and civilian leadership since the colonial times. Don't these pathetic brainless bald heads think that all other nations the share the same planet, resources and brains. All we need is to let our people develop skills, today they will make something basic but tomorrow they will something world class.

 

[Djinn]

Learning requires exposure, and let's be honest here, the Pakistani defence industry hasn't gotten a whole lot of it, especially in the shipbuilding and land vehicles areas.

Whether it be by contracting an external vendor to help guide a local one (e.g. in this case where STM will help KSEW), sending Pakistani students to overseas universities for STEM education, picking up consultants with valuable insights and skils, you're going to need to talk to others in order to improve.

Granted, this deal with STM isn't going to flip around KSEW, for that we will need a much more robust and comprehensive policy of indigenization that cuts across acquisitions, education, R&D funding, etc.

Quwa i am looking forward to reading some analysis, insight and future prospects of Pakistan's collaboration with STM beyond the modernization of Agosta's, i hope you are considering or already have something in the pipeline?

 

[jamal18]

If there was right leadership and as you said psyche, we should have started, preferrably in parallel to the development of Agosta 90-B or at least immediately after the completion of the project, developing human resource for the future projects. We had got an excellent opportunity to learn from the ToT in Agosta project, a team of skilled designers, engineers and technicians had been developed so we needed to utilise them and we had more than sufficient time to develop our own submarines from the scratch indigenuously. The upgradation project should have been a much easier task. Why are we looking for Chinese or any other options......I mean I can't fathom the inferiority complex hardwired in the minds of our military and civilian leadership since the colonial times. Don't these pathetic brainless bald heads think that all other nations the share the same planet, resources and brains. All we need is to let our people develop skills, today they will make something basic but tomorrow they will something world class.

I agree word for word.

As I said much earlier, we should just build a submarine (for example) entirely by ourselves. Would this be the best submarine in the world? No.

But we would gain so much experience and self-confidence that the next one will.

 

[war&peace]

I agree word for word.

As I said much earlier, we should just build a submarine (for example) entirely by ourselves. Would this be the best submarine in the world? No.

But we would gain so much experience and self-confidence that the next one will.

Bro to tell you something, Pakistan has been developing small submarines called midgets totoally indigenuously. So that experience combined with ToT in Agosta-90B, we should have developed a world class submarine. And when I say indigenuous, I do not mean that we have to develop each and every part ourselves, the main design and system should be ours and then we reach out others for help where we need to come up with an excellent product. But why did we not institutionalised the experience we acquired, we should have developed a university level research institution in maritime technology, used the team and also invited foreign faculty to visit and deliver lectures...and they could be from Turkey, China, USA, South Korea, UK. Japan, etc

 

[monitor]

Great news. Can they offer same offer for the future Chinese sub?

 

[Imtiaz_Sarwar]

Could someone tell the forum how much this is going to cost Pakistan ?

 

[ziaulislam]

kuch khud bhi kar lo

Apparently it seems we can't and that has to do with the incompetent leadership. One should ask what the hell was Agosta-90B deal with TOT, where did that TOT go...Did all those engineers die or left for better opportunities? We will never learn from one master to another....pathetic chronic dependence....
I am totally in favour of good relations with Turkey China and other friendly/brotherly nations based on mutual benefits through team-work i.e.(1) joint venture (2) ToT and joint-production. We need to develop systems ourselves and this depends on the leadership, if they won't let the institutions to develop and always look to foreign help for everything shows they have no trust in their abilities and always the money of this poor nation will be channeled out and few bigs will ofcourse fill the coffers.

you need continuing investment ..if you don t invest you cannot go forward...so key is to have enough money to continue to invest..i.e good economy

 

[war&peace]

you need continuing investment ..if you don t invest you cannot go forward...so key is to have enough money to continue to invest..i.e good economy

Yes..we always had money but we don't know how and where to spend. Furthermore, we do not stop corrupt people from robbing the national exchequer and both civilian and military leaderships have been partners in that in the past. Though I think the current COAS is honest person, however the same cannot be said about others.

 

[Quwa]

Quwa i am looking forward to reading some analysis, insight and future prospects of Pakistan's collaboration with STM beyond the modernization of Agosta's, i hope you are considering or already have something in the pipeline?

Haven't focused much on STM in particular, but I did discuss the MILGEM and how Pakistan could adopt it for its needs. Should the PN select the MILGEM and (especially) MILGEM-G, it would only be natural that we work closely with STM in order to outfit the platform for our requirements.

http://quwa.org/?s=MILGEM

 

[Djinn]

Haven't focused much on STM in particular, but I did discuss the MILGEM and how Pakistan could adopt it for its needs. Should the PN select the MILGEM and (especially) MILGEM-G, it would only be natural that we work closely with STM in order to outfit the platform for our requirements.

http://quwa.org/?s=MILGEM

I was interested in exploring if there possibly could be any chance of STM's involvement with Pakistan's newly ordered Chinese subs......Any technology or system they could offer which Pakistan may be looking to integrate with the Chinese subs?

 

[Viking 63]

45 monthS!!!! are they building a bloody AIRCRAFT CARRIER????