Turkey Cancelled F-35 Order, To Be Re-Evaluated

[cabatli_53]

well , they have to learn it in a war .... words can't help them .... just like Iran in 1979 ....

Don't worry my friend, Turkey has realized the importance of self-reliance much earlier than today but Our self-reliance schedule is way difficult and longer than Iranians in parrallel with economical steps. Until 70's, Turkey and corrupt politicians enjoyed with USA toys/ helps but The situation changedwith Cyprus crisses. If you check Turkish Army's 1974 Cyprus Peace Operation and the Turkish defence institutes' establishment dates, You would see the parallelism among them. Most of Turkish top defence institutes are belong to TSKGV (Turkish Armed Forces Foundation ). I mean All those big R&D oriented defence institutes such as Roketsan, Aselsan, Havelsan, TAI like institutes are established in similar years and working a part of Turkish Armed Forces Foundation...

http://www.tskgv.org.tr/tskgv/?lang=en

Contrary to Iran, Turkish defence industry and investments are not only aiming to meet the Turkish Armed Forces' requirements, but also cpmpeting with Western equivalents so Maturation and Technological readiness should be improved really high levels thanks to European maturation level assesments and standart certificates Turkish institutes receives. I mean All those years from 1970's to 2010's are passed with maturation and experiance gaining activities. Today, Turkey started revealing own state of art designs which is able to compete with Western systems...

5-6 years ago, While Most of Iranians who rank themselves over every country in region in terms of any area you can imagine, were ridiculing Turkish defence industry as screwers of Europe-USA, I always adviced them to " wait a littile more, Technology needs the time, Design engineering is completely different story than manufacturing, You neither design nor develop any technology When It comes to industrial activities, Methods two countries applied for development are completely different..etc "


At present, What I saw is changing the percpectives of some Iranians (Thanks PDF like forums) regarding Turkish defence industry. Today, What you see is the beggining of what you will see in near future. I repeat my statement again. Wait a littile more to see What I am talking about instead of talking about self-reliance of Turkey and capabilities of Turkish defence industry...

 

[mehmeTcc]

It is not cancelled for God's sake, it is delayed. Turkey wanted to buy planes with SOM missile capability (it means Block-3 or higher versions of the F-35 software) but due to delays in the F-35 programme, Lockheed proposed Block-2C aircrafts for now. We should wait till 20s for Turkish F-35s

Germans are preparing to retire their F-4 ICEs, if we will make additional procurements for TurAF then they are the best candidates for now.

 

[explorer9]

Don't worry my friend, Turkey has realized the importance of self-reliance much earlier than today but Our self-reliance schedule is way difficult and longer than Iranians in parrallel with economical steps. Until 70's, Turkey and corrupt politicians enjoyed with USA toys/ helps but The situation changedwith Cyprus crisses. If you check Turkish Army's 1974 Cyprus Peace Operation and the Turkish defence institutes' establishment dates, You would see the parallelism among them. Most of Turkish top defence institutes are belong to TSKGV (Turkish Armed Forces Foundation ). I mean All those big R&D oriented defence institutes such as Roketsan, Aselsan, Havelsan, TAI like institutes are established in similar years and working a part of Turkish Armed Forces Foundation...

http://www.tskgv.org.tr/tskgv/?lang=en

Contrary to Iran, Turkish defence industry and investments are not only aiming to meet the Turkish Armed Forces' requirements, but also cpmpeting with Western equivalents so Maturation and Technological readiness should be improved really high levels thanks to European maturation level assesments and standart certificates Turkish institutes receives. I mean All those years from 1970's to 2010's are passed with maturation and experiance gaining activities. Today, Turkey started revealing own state of art designs which is able to compete with Western systems...

5-6 years ago, While Most of Iranians who rank themselves over every country in region in terms of any area you can imagine, were ridiculing Turkish defence industry as screwers of Europe-USA, I always adviced them to " wait a littile more, Technology needs the time, Design engineering is completely different story than manufacturing, You neither design nor develop any technology When It comes to industrial activities, Methods two countries applied for development are completely different..etc "
At present, What I saw is changing the percpectives of some Iranians (Thanks PDF like forums) regarding Turkish defence industry. Today, What you see is the beggining of what you will see in near future. I repeat my statement again. Wait a littile more to see What I am talking about instead of talking about self-reliance of Turkey and capabilities of Turkish defence industry...

There is no doubt about that what ever you have stated in your assessment. Turkish arms is going through a cycle of development if you rightly put it in developmental cycle it needs another decade to integrate the designs with subsystems to finish a final product of international standard.

So wait for another 10 years to see the cycle of maturity in arms development and production by Turkish designing and industries.

 

[twilight]

With all due respect we've learned that lesson much earlier... i'm quite sure you'd be surprised when you found out that Turkey was sanctioned after the 1974 Cyprus military intervention.
Then why would be so many disagreements between the congress and Lockheed Martin? Doesn't make much sense. F35 isn't just a cheap version of F22. Even it's helmet is revolutionary. Design and development for such a huge project takes a lot of money Fact is, neither J20 nor J31 can come near F35. Chinese are very inexperienced in aircraft development. These are just baby steps of a rather huge baby

And Turkey will never buy EF. There's no such parallel-universe

well , the truth is that I didn't really research about turkey .... but can you tell me what was the level of sanction !? because we have diffrent type of sanctions ( we are pro at it )

probably you have no idea about operating best fighter without help of the maker of it .... Iran and F14 is a good example ... we had a lot problems to operate our tomcats without USA's help in 1980-1995 ....

and unfortunately - for you and other F-35 buyers - USA learn a lesson from tomcat story and that why he didn't agree to give the code of F-35 radars and devices to other buyers ... he doesn't want to repeat Iran and F14 issue ....

__________

I didn't compare the quality of F35 and J20 , J31 and PAK FA , I only said that scale of F35 budget is unbelievable ( at least for me ) ....

anyway , both China and Russia still haven't proper turbo fan engine for stealth air craft .... and about Radar , I'm sure USA is number 1 in making radar for fighters .......

 

[cabatli_53]

well , the truth is that I really research about turkey .... but can you tell me what was the level of sanction !? ... because I'm not sure west put heavy sanction on you ( well , they didn't want turkey go to western block !!!)

but probably you have no idea about operating best fighter without help of the maker of it .... Iran and F14 is a good example ... we had a lot problems to operate our tomcats without USA's help in 1980-1995 ....

After 1974 sanctions, Turkey became the second-third hand useless old generation garbage of West (Even those toys are coming with lots of restrictions such as no use on PKK, No use on Cyprus...) because Almost all including the countries looks like a sh@t When They were compared with current Turkey, refuse exporting any strategic military product worth billion $ or think twice before exporting. No need to go 1970's, I am talking from 1990's. That's why Turkey canalized a new and reliable source which Required strategic systems West refuse, would have been easily obtained from. ISRAEL...

 

[twilight]

After 1974 sanctions, Turkey became the second-third hand useless old generation garbage of West (Even those toys are coming with lots of restrictions such as no use on PKK, No use on Cyprus...) because Almost all including the countries looks like a sh@t When They were compared with current Turkey, refuse exporting any strategic military product worth billion $.

how you faced the sanction .... !?
you wait till the sanctions get expire !?

 

[cabatli_53]

how you faced the sanction .... !?
you wait till the sanctions get expire !?

No, It is West changed/changing the strategy. Firstly Germany remove the restrictions They have issued, over their second hand Leopard 1 and 2 Tanks, Then I think Other countries started following. It was happen because I think They saw a big market to be lost cause of their arrogancy, While Israel and S. Korea enjoy billion $ agreements with transfering the technology Turkey required. After this period, Turkey didn't need to order any complete strategic systems but started development. Turkey's big and strategic programs (Such as Atak, Altay...etc) have an epic story which represents "the immediate need but no source" desperation times of Turkish officials cause of Western embargoes...

Today,
KMW is begging Turkey to establish a joint institute for land vehicles. Turkey's response "No need"
Sweeden opened offices in Turkey to find the areas Two country may work but There wasn't much area remained to work with West.
Many French institutes were banned cause of political reasons and can't enter into Turkey's tenders directly...
.
.
.

 

[mehmeTcc]

Everyone thinks Chinese are the ones who transferred ballistic tech to Turkey, yet no one knows about the secret power behind it. Israel even offered Shavit tech to Turkey, according to plan Turkey would gain SLV technology meanwhile Israel would get a safe haven for its future launches. But due to heavy pressure from US Govt. all of these have abandoned.

Germans are still pain in the azz about PKK issue, just sayin'

 

[twilight]

No, It is West changed/changing the strategy. Firstly Germany remove the restrictions They have issued, over their second hand Leopard 1 and 2 Tanks, Then I think Other countries started following. It was happen because I think They saw a big market to be lost cause of their arrogancy, While Israel and S. Korea enjoy with billion $ with transfering the technology Turkey required. After this period, Turkey didn't need to order any complete strategic systems but started development.

Today,
KMW is begging Turkey to establish a joint institute for land vehicles. Turkey's response "No need"
Sweeden is opened offices in Turkey to find the areas Two country may work but There wasn't much area remained to work with West.
Many French institutes were banned cause of political reasons and can't enter into Turkey's tenders directly...
.
.
.

thanks .... I see ...

well , you didn't face with complete sanction and could to trade with other country .... well , when I mention sanction ... I have something like Iran's sanction from 1980 .... only N korea and China sell us weapons ... and when I say weapon , I mean RPG 7 , bolts , canons and this sort of things ....

sanction is double edge sword ....

 

[cabatli_53]

Everyone thinks Chinese are the ones who transferred ballistic tech to Turkey, yet no one knows about the secret power behind it. Israel even offered Shavit tech to Turkey, according to plan Turkey would gain SLV technology meanwhile Israel would get a safe haven for its future launches. But due to heavy pressure from US Govt. all of these have abandoned.

Germans are still pain in the azz about PKK issue, just sayin'

Israel offered Turkey to join into development of ARROW missiles as well but Acc. to some sources, USA under the management of George "Pust" refused Israeli offer and cancelled.

 

[TuranKhan]

how you faced the sanction .... !?
you wait till the sanctions get expire !?

No it never expired automatically, what we did after sanction / weapons embargo was close all US bases, cut relations in some defence aspects and to only keep NATO responsibility. When US understood that it would greatly affect NATO and subsequently weaken USA they lifted the embargo.

 

[LegionnairE]

Only thing I'd like to add to what cabatli_53 and MehmeTcc already said is, that Turkey was a NATO member before and after 1974. And the cold war wasn't anywhere near ending. Losing Turkey to soviet bloc would be a fvcking disaster. There was a limit to what US could do to Turkey.

Iran's case is slightly different. They have no allies because of crap policies, they have no significant importance to anyone(NATO didn't give a sh*t if they've joined the warsaw pact, axis of evil or whatever), yet they are arrogant enough to think they can develop faster than the rest of the world and keep up with the advancements of 6 billion people isolated. So it's a deadlock, even if they do get nuclear weapons they'll get bombed back to stone age or stay isolated like north korea for the decades to come. Latter is more probable but it really doesn't make any difference.

Even Ottoman Empire wasn't as arrogant as the Iranian regime. The empire have given capitulations to France in order to divide the crusaders. Iran is blindfolded with religion they'll realize

 

[cabatli_53]

thanks .... I see ...

well , you didn't face with complete sanction and could to trade with other country .... well , when I mention sanction ... I have something like Iran's sanction from 1980 .... only N korea and China sell us weapons ... and when I say weapon , I mean RPG 7 , bolts , canons and this sort of things ....

sanction is double edge sword ....

My friend, Your politicians prepare so crap foreign policies and made serious false statements related with supporting the groups USA points out as terorists and Israel which makes USA swords suddenly directed over you. If you proceed a calmer external policies and keep your undertable plans for your future, I think Neither Russia under the directions of USA pressures would have canceled S-300 and 250 Su-30 fighter deals, not All world directed not to export the things listed on new sanction lists prepared by USA.

 

[twilight]

My friend, Your politicians made serious false statements related with supporting the groups USA points out as terorists and Israel which makes USA swords suddenly directed over you. If you proceed a calmer external policies and keep your undertable plans for your future, I think Neither Russia under the directions of USA pressures would has to cancel S-300 and 250 Su-30 fighter deals, not All world will be directed not to export the things listed on new sanction lists prepared by USA.

actually , your mistake is here ... extremist group are Al Qaeda and Taliban and USA is their master ... and both KSA and Qatar support them ...

Hezbollah and Hamas are not extremist group ... they are freedom fighter who kick Israel out from their land .... even though I/we really don't like Hamas but till they fighting against Zion we will help them ...

simply USA don't want to see an independent Islamic country with Islamic government in charge who want to has his own politics and view ...

They have problem with every free and independent nation ....

_______

exactly , we continue under table plane till USA become aware of it .... they are not blind as you think .... and Ahmadi nejad big mouth help both zion and USA more than anything ... before Ahamdi nejad , we only send two president to UN but after he come to power , he going to USA every year and saying unnecessary thing ...


and about 250 flanker fighters .... well Russia want to sell those with higher price and that why we didn't accept it ( although we didn't trust russia as well ... this is historical issue )

 

[cabatli_53]

actually , your mistake is here ... extremist group are Al Qaeda and Taliban and USA is their master ... and both KSA and Qatar support them ...

Hezbollah and Hamas are not extremist group ... they are freedom fighter who kick Israel out from their land .... even though I/we really don't like Hamas but till they fighting against Zion we will help them ...

simply USA don't want to see an independent Islamic country with Islamic government in charge who want to has his own politics and view ...

They have problem with every free and independent nation ....

_______

exactly , we continue under table plane till USA become aware of it .... they are not blind as you think .... and Ahmadi nejad big mouth help both zion and USA more than anything ... before Ahamdi nejad , we only send two president to UN but after he come to power , he going to USA every year and saying unnecessary thing ...


and about 250 flanker fighters .... well Russia want to sell those with higher price and that why we didn't accept it ( although we didn't trust russia as well ... this is historical issue )

Diplomatic speeches always have strategi importance between countries. I mean There are deadly differences between saying Israel is doing wrong things, killing civilians, capturing Muslim lands... so Israel has to be stopped. Where are you World ?" and Israel is doing all those so Iran will wipe Israel out of the map thanks to superior Iranian missiles". If you did it, Someone needs to remind you that Israel is small yes but not alone... and If the persn who made such extreme speeches are from Iranian management, It just reminds me that This guy is either have some menthal problems, or preparing for a destruction.

and addition, In diplomacy, There isn't a term like "Saying Whatever you believe and think". You may consider PKK as freedom fighter with your World percpectve and You may believe that PKK is established by Turkey itself but If you voices it with a diplomatic speeches all around the World (Right or False), It means You are ready to take all likely economical, political and military risks...


There is no feelings in politic because your speeches may effect the future of millions living in your borders. Every politicians have to think the own countries' interests and future plans even If the policies you are proceeding, disturb your inner World.