What's new

Turkey Cancelled F-35 Order, To Be Re-Evaluated

First of all I want to say this again, Turkey will buy F35 no matter what. Do not fall for negotiation tactics.
Just to further your argument.

Nuclear technology is the prime example of being stolen from one country to another. There has never been official transfer of nuclear technology from one country to another.

US took it from Germans at the end of WWII and Russians stole it right from under US noses in Project Oppenheimer. So there are restricted, high value technologies that are always stolen and reverse engineered.
Yeah but it has nothing to do with engineering, it's pure science. A series of concepts that can be taught from one physicist to another. Reverse engineering a complex operational design is a whole different realm.
 
.
The F-35 never sat well with me from the get go. I am actually glad Turkey is canceling or thinking of canceling its order.

Cost to effect ratio is just not worth it in my opinion. Turkey needs a heavy deep strike fighter. An F-15E for Turkey will create immense new strategic capabilities for the Turkish Air Force that F-35 can not achieve.

To be honest, with the development J-31, J-20 and PAK FA, 5th generation fighters are becoming more and more important, especially for countries that cannot purchase them from China or Russia, but the way F-35 is designed really does not inspire confidence. Essentially, USA is trying to shove way too many strategic roles onto the single engine craft. For example, in East Asia, the Japanese are hoping F-35 can help them fight or at least delay J-20s in the future, this means emphasis on defensive and air superiority aspects. At the same time, Turkey is hoping for long distance, deep strike ability and other participants may want other roles for F-35. The end result is a craft that is horribly overpriced and not necessarily reliable to perform any of those roles.
 
.
@tranquilium
Japan may have more specific needs but Turkey has been using multi-role fighters for a very long time, we know what we are doing. It's the state of the art electronic warfare systems and hi tech equipment such as AN-APG 81, EO DAS and HMDS we are paying money to. Not the huge airframes such as Pak-Fa or J20
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
@tranquilium
Japan may have more specific needs but Turkey has been using multi-role fighters for a very long time, we know what we are doing. It's the state of the art electronic warfare systems and hi tech equipment such as AN-APG 81, EO DAS and HMDS we are paying money to. Not the huge airframes such as Pak-Fa or J20

In that case, F-35 will be just fine. Though 90% of the stealth capability of a 5th gen aircraft comes from the frame, would Turkey develop its own frame? Does Turkey have super sonic wind tunnels for it?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
In that case, F-35 will be just fine. Though 90% of the stealth capability of a 5th gen aircraft comes from the frame, would Turkey develop its own frame? Does Turkey have super sonic wind tunnels for it?
We have basic wind tunnels for aerodynamic testing, not sure if they are sufficient. It's been more than 50 years since Turkey last built fighter aircraft so our experience in plane designing is pretty much nil except for the Hürkuş advanced trainer aircraft and Anka UAV.

That's why we've been looking for a partner. Aselsan can make avionics, that much is given, TEI can produce turbojet engines but they aren't ready to develop a full-scale fighter engine on their own. TAI can produce aircraft parts and assemble them but it'll be the first time they do the designing.

Even with SAAB's partnership TF-X is still an adventure, we have no Idea what'll come out of this :) I can almost bet, it'll be a twin engine aircraft this time. But which engine? what role? we'll wait and see.
 
.
Turkey Says Cost, Problems Prompted JSF Purchase Delay

ANKARA — Although Turkey has been one of the strongest partners in the multinational F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, continuing financial and technical problems have created a more cautious attitude and interest in backup plans.

Officially, Ankara cites rising costs and technological issues for its Jan. 10 decision to postpone an order to purchase its first two F-35 fighter jets. But top procurement officials admit there is a “certain degree of psychological deliberation at work, too.” Turkey does not want to “stand alone in the dark’’ on the program, said an official with Turkey’s procurement agency, the Savunma Sanayi Mustesarligi (SSM).

“Due to the current state of the JSF ... and the rising cost ... it was decided to postpone the order placed on Jan. 5, 2012, for the two aircraft,” said the SSM. It also said the decision was made because the technical capabilities of the aircraft were “not at the desired level yet.”

After the initial purchase of the two jets, Turkey plans to order 100 units of the stealth fighter to replace its F-4 Phantoms and F-16 Fighting Falcons, according to the statement.

“It is true that the costs are rising, and we calculate that it would be safer for us to join other skeptical partners,” the SSM official said. “We think it is wiser to wait and see … to have a concerted position with the other partners.”

In December, JSF partner Canada threatened to reconsider its purchase of the F-35. Shortly after that, Australia said it would buy 24 Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornets if it saw any more delays in the JSF program.

European partners Britain and the Netherlands may delay their orders and question the rising costs. Also, Italy cut its JSF order by 30 percent last year as part of a broader reduction in government spending.

Lockheed Martin, which builds the F-35, said it still expects to sell about 3,000 of the fighters over the next 25 years, including 2,443 to the U.S.

Industry sources said any reduction in numbers will make individual planes more expensive because Lockheed will be unable to spread development and other costs as widely. The average cost per plane, pegged at $161 million, has doubled since Lockheed won the development contract in 2001. Since then, the U.S. has cut its total order by 400 planes.

Another SSM official familiar with the program said the country was not considering leaving the program.

“We have spent nearly $1 billion for this venture. The top management [at the SSM] told us to wait and see before we renew our first order. This is an indefinite postponement, but certainly not an intention to pull out.”

An Air Force officer said further delays could disrupt operational requirements and planning at the headquarters.

“In that case, we may have to sit down with the procurement people and devise a stopgap plan,” he said.

The senior SSM official ruled out buying the Eurofighter Typhoon but said Ankara could consider an F-16 purchase.

“We can compensate for rising costs with larger work share for our domestic industry. We also think that technical failures are not failures but just delays. If things get worse, we can consider an F-16 buy,” he said.

Turkey is one of nine countries that are part of a U.S.-led consortium to build the F-35 fighter. The others are Britain, Canada, Italy, the Netherlands, Australia, Norway and Denmark.

Turkey announced in March 2011 that it was placing its order for 100 jets on hold due to U.S. refusal to provide adequate access to the aircraft’s source codes. Ankara said that negotiations for access to the codes, including codes that can be used to control the aircraft remotely, had not yielded satisfactory results, and under these conditions, Turkey could not accept the aircraft. The issue remains unresolved.

In April 2012, Turkey suggested program costs could be reduced by outsourcing more production to Turkish defense and aerospace companies, which operate with lower labor costs compared with their counterparts in the U.S. and other partner countries.

Turkey Says Cost, Problems Prompted JSF Purchase Delay | Defense News | defensenews.com
 
.
8454032442_eff60c2201_h(2).jpg

8454032618_9ea4056ec3_h(2).jpg

8454032818_980e904763_h.jpg

2013_F35A_12J00786_20_1267828237_1383.jpg

2013_F35A_AF2_DR_J00768_04_1267828237_4325.jpg
 
.
Turkey Says Cost, Problems Prompted JSF Purchase Delay

ANKARA — Although Turkey has been one of the strongest partners in the multinational F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, continuing financial and technical problems have created a more cautious attitude and interest in backup plans.

Officially, Ankara cites rising costs and technological issues for its Jan. 10 decision to postpone an order to purchase its first two F-35 fighter jets. But top procurement officials admit there is a “certain degree of psychological deliberation at work, too.” Turkey does not want to “stand alone in the dark’’ on the program, said an official with Turkey’s procurement agency, the Savunma Sanayi Mustesarligi (SSM).

“Due to the current state of the JSF ... and the rising cost ... it was decided to postpone the order placed on Jan. 5, 2012, for the two aircraft,” said the SSM. It also said the decision was made because the technical capabilities of the aircraft were “not at the desired level yet.”

After the initial purchase of the two jets, Turkey plans to order 100 units of the stealth fighter to replace its F-4 Phantoms and F-16 Fighting Falcons, according to the statement.

“It is true that the costs are rising, and we calculate that it would be safer for us to join other skeptical partners,” the SSM official said. “We think it is wiser to wait and see … to have a concerted position with the other partners.”

In December, JSF partner Canada threatened to reconsider its purchase of the F-35. Shortly after that, Australia said it would buy 24 Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornets if it saw any more delays in the JSF program.

European partners Britain and the Netherlands may delay their orders and question the rising costs. Also, Italy cut its JSF order by 30 percent last year as part of a broader reduction in government spending.

Lockheed Martin, which builds the F-35, said it still expects to sell about 3,000 of the fighters over the next 25 years, including 2,443 to the U.S.

Industry sources said any reduction in numbers will make individual planes more expensive because Lockheed will be unable to spread development and other costs as widely. The average cost per plane, pegged at $161 million, has doubled since Lockheed won the development contract in 2001. Since then, the U.S. has cut its total order by 400 planes.

Another SSM official familiar with the program said the country was not considering leaving the program.

“We have spent nearly $1 billion for this venture. The top management [at the SSM] told us to wait and see before we renew our first order. This is an indefinite postponement, but certainly not an intention to pull out.”

An Air Force officer said further delays could disrupt operational requirements and planning at the headquarters.

“In that case, we may have to sit down with the procurement people and devise a stopgap plan,” he said.

The senior SSM official ruled out buying the Eurofighter Typhoon but said Ankara could consider an F-16 purchase.

“We can compensate for rising costs with larger work share for our domestic industry. We also think that technical failures are not failures but just delays. If things get worse, we can consider an F-16 buy,” he said.

Turkey is one of nine countries that are part of a U.S.-led consortium to build the F-35 fighter. The others are Britain, Canada, Italy, the Netherlands, Australia, Norway and Denmark.

Turkey announced in March 2011 that it was placing its order for 100 jets on hold due to U.S. refusal to provide adequate access to the aircraft’s source codes. Ankara said that negotiations for access to the codes, including codes that can be used to control the aircraft remotely, had not yielded satisfactory results, and under these conditions, Turkey could not accept the aircraft. The issue remains unresolved.

In April 2012, Turkey suggested program costs could be reduced by outsourcing more production to Turkish defense and aerospace companies, which operate with lower labor costs compared with their counterparts in the U.S. and other partner countries.

Turkey Says Cost, Problems Prompted JSF Purchase Delay | Defense News | defensenews.com

Why the F-16s, IMO We should spice things up... The JAS-39 Gripen! Although its probably a long shot.

Look at this Beauthy!
jas39redflag08-3_20080722.jpg

jas39ng_200811201.jpg

der-tapete-jas-39-gripen-9458,1280x960,9458.jpg
 
.
The mind boggling cost of this fighter raises doubts about whether this a good deal for the buck. Simply its a disaster that is being kept afloat by US MI complex. Btw the time this disaster takes of the ground (if ever), turkey will most likely have their own 5th gen fighter programme completed. For a stop gap why doesn't turkey go for grippen/euro fighter. F-15 is also there, then there is the F-16 that turkey have gained experience in building. U can ask for US permission to have a rip off turkish derivative on F16 just like the Japanese F2.
 
.
@<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=38977" target="_blank">BordoEnes</a></u> JAS-39 Gripen is not better then a F16 or Eurofighter or Rafale or F-35 or a Sukhoi or MiG.

You can Compare a JAS-39 to a Mig-29 or F-16 but not to F-35 or F-22 or Eurofighter.


ef2.JPG


BVR_combat_rating_against_Upgraded_Su-27_Flanker_%28Core%29.PNG
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
What happened it that Turkey canceled the procurement of 2 F-35s from LRIP 7, which will be not fully operational capable:

70003391.1360354645.jpg


Turkey will buy F-35s from LRIP 8 and further. There is no any question about it.

For a stop gap why doesn't turkey go for grippen/euro fighter.
Grippen is less capable than F-16 block 52+, Eurofighter is not much better but much much more expensive.
 
.
@madmusti Actually i was refering to buying it as a stop gap, as mensioned in the article we are eyeing for another peace onyx. I never said it should replace the F-35 Purchase plans.
@500 I was thinking about the new JAS-39NG, Which to be honest, I dont know the status off (Said to be better then Block 52+).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
@BordoEnes

We will get in the Future maybe the SAAB Technology ,but what we need is a better One then a Gripen and this Option is a F-35 Series.

The Future Plans :

tfx_3-tr1.jpg

tfx7_tr.jpg

tfx_100-tr1.jpg

tfx_200-tr.jpg

tfx_7-tr1.jpg

tfx-listesi1.jpg

1.jpg

f0082824_4fad0671af760.jpg


In 2035 we will have this TFX in the Inventory ,that means in 22 Years or maybe 15 ~ 20.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
ther is no paper and design of TFX.. Some good people wiht intention made nice things. It has nothing to do with this project. The project is not ready and people are showing nice models.:azn:
 
.
maybe we can see the first TF-X Conzept in IDEF 2013.
 
.
Back
Top Bottom