Troops of Karachi Corps are practicing tactical drills as part of Exercise “Jidar-ul-Hadeed”

[iLION12345_1]

Disclaimer: OFF-Topic Post



Following are the recent pics attached below which are maximum 1 or 2 years old .....

In the first pic you can observe the pic of Gen Bajwa in the back ground on HIT exhibition hall and the tank in Focus is the base line AK while AK-I is in the background

View attachment 716801

In the following pic you can observe that ERA tiles are not bolt directly into the Tank hull but on the attachment frame which is bolted on tank hull therefore you don't need many attachment points for every ERA plate on the Tank

View attachment 716802

So hopefully you will reconsider your statement or the statement of any Tom, Dick and Harry youtuber that "there is no ERA for alkhalid original" it is just a matter of preference rather than availability

I’ve been inside that very AK in the last picture many times.
Thanks for mentioning the thing about the ERA frame, I forgot that existed.

 

[Basel]

Good to see you got your Professional tag.

The "Toyota wars" show the lethality of ATGM equipped 4x4. These nimble, agile yet powerfully equipped 4x4 are good tank hunters.

M-113 (Tin can) catching fire through aluminum armor is a concern.

Why no IFV inducted by PA till now??

On the other hand India have huge numbers of IFV allowing them movement and fire power

 

[PanzerKiel]

Why no IFV inducted by PA till now??

On the other hand India have huge numbers of IFV allowing them movement and fire power

Its all related to our battle doctrine.... Once doctrine is finalised, then the equipment required to implement it is procured....

In other words, IFV won't suit our present doctrine, not M113 would suit Indian doctrine....

And then doctrine is also not something which one can change every decade or so.... It gets changed maybe once a generation... Or as a result of a major event, such as war itself.

 

[Khan vilatey]

Tanks are not equipped with ERA unless deployed because Walking on ERA is not the safest thing, ERA is explosive, if any mishap were to happen during transport or training it can cause damage to nearby objects and friendlies, hence it’s not equipped during peacetime. Tanks like the British challenger and the American abrams are also often seen without any ERA equipped when they’re not deployed, this doesn’t mean it can’t be equipped when needed. If you look at pictures of the production line of AKs or even some of the oldest photos of AKs you’ll see then fully equipped with ERA. Also, almost all of the newer AKs and now AK1s have visible mounting points on hull for ERA and are seen with either single ERA or double stacked ERA plates when deployed. These mounting points can be easily added to older AKs too.

thank you brother for clarifying. I know a little about ERA from 2001. The frame you are describing requires some modifications to the hull. I did not see that on tanks. I would also be surprised if we don’t install them as part of training in the desert as
1 it would allow us to test effectiveness or problems in high temperature environments

2)allow tanks crew to train with the increased weight and profile of the ERA.

Disclaimer: OFF-Topic Post



Following are the recent pics attached below which are maximum 1 or 2 years old .....

In the first pic you can observe the pic of Gen Bajwa in the back ground on the wall of HIT exhibition hall and the tank in Focus is the base line AK while AK-I is in the background

View attachment 716801

In the following pic you can observe that ERA tiles are not bolt directly into the Tank hull but on the attachment frame which is bolted on tank hull therefore you don't need many attachment points for every ERA plate on the Tank

View attachment 716802

So hopefully you will reconsider your statement or the statement of any Tom, Dick and Harry youtuber that "there is no ERA for alkhalid original" it is just a matter of preference rather than availability

thank you for providing this brother it looks so cool. I reconsider my statement. I hope more of our tanks specially the alkhalid get these stands for mounting ERAs. I know there was a program to install these stands as part of the overhaul.

when considering the opposition to the Karachi V CORPS. Alkhalids and type 85 vs t-72, Arjun and t-90s I think we are good. The t-72 and Arjun would be canon offer to the alkhalid but t-90s would require us to mount ERA.

please provide more info, it’s amazing to learn from friend
k

 

[PanzerKiel]

M-113 (Tin can) catching fire through aluminum armor is a concern.

In order to address this concern, later P or Pakistani models of M113 got their fuel tanks outside of the vehicle, instead of like American A1 or A2 we have which have the fuel tank inside the cabin.

 

[TsAr]

General Iftikhar sitting on the sand...
COAS must have called this meet suddenly..... the usual..... View attachment 716683

On the other hand, this scene reminds me of the early days of Pak Army.....simplicity all around.

there are 2 vacant chairs around them, it could be that the meeting got prolonged and he got tired sitting on that not so comfortable chair . But yes good to see no show shaw....

 

[Signalian]

Why no IFV inducted by PA till now??

On the other hand India have huge numbers of IFV allowing them movement and fire power

Maaz pasand nai aya ? It has a good big ATGM launcher on it, plus a 12.7 ack ack. Turret hona zaruri thi kiya ? ya 12.7mm k bajaye 20 or 25 mm cannon hota ?

Doctrine is one factor. The whole "APC is battle taxi" whose purpose is to deliver troops to frontlines and troops fight dismounted to support MBTs. For direct combat where an IFV may face MBTs, it needs to have adequate protection and firepower to stand its ground. A Bmp-2 may face PA MBT, it may even fire an ATGM at MBT, which the MBT can survive through ERA or APS or any other countermeasure but will the Bmp-2 survive if the MBT fires from its main gun ? Seriously doubt it. So now, not only an IFV is lost but 7-10 Indian troops have lost their armored transport. If the troops would have been inside, they would burn to death if not already exhumed in exploding ammo of Bmp-2. If luckily the troops were dismounted, they would need another form of transport be it Bmp-2 or truck. Do read about Namer APC of IDF. Then an APC in most cases can carry more troops, an IFV carries lesser troops. If IFV carries 6 troops plus 3 crew, while lets say that M-113 carries 9 troops plus 2 crew, so an all IFV battalion would then need more vehicles than a regular MIB (APC equipped). Even if the MIB is a mixture of IFV and APC, that battalion may still need APCs to carry all troops securely to battlefield. Cost factor. Dismounted troops can scatter more actively than a lone IFV proving to be a bigger threat with the diverse array of weapons they carry to take out different targets - assault rifle, LMG, bazooka/RPG, mortar etc. While an IFV can engage one target at a time, the dismounted troops can engage many targets at the same time. So apart from doctrine, there are pros and cons.

In order to address this concern, later P or Pakistani models of M113 got their fuel tanks outside of the vehicle, instead of like American A1 or A2 we have which have the fuel tank inside the cabin.

Jo bhi ho bhai, bus ab IFV hi chaiye. Bring Viper in service.

 

[Raja Porus]

Careful what you wish for

https://twitter.com/x/status/1361374870123278337

For a moment I thought that those RRs have come back to life

 

[Basel]

Maaz pasand nai aya ? It has a good big ATGM launcher on it, plus a 12.7 ack ack. Turret hona zaruri thi kiya ? ya 12.7mm k bajaye 20 or 25 mm cannon hota ?

Doctrine is one factor. The whole "APC is battle taxi" whose purpose is to deliver troops to frontlines and troops fight dismounted to support MBTs. For direct combat where an IFV may face MBTs, it needs to have adequate protection and firepower to stand its ground. A Bmp-2 may face PA MBT, it may even fire an ATGM at MBT, which the MBT can survive through ERA or APS or any other countermeasure but will the Bmp-2 survive if the MBT fires from its main gun ? Seriously doubt it. So now, not only an IFV is lost but 7-10 Indian troops have lost their armored transport. If the troops would have been inside, they would burn to death if not already exhumed in exploding ammo of Bmp-2. If luckily the troops were dismounted, they would need another form of transport be it Bmp-2 or truck. Do read about Namer APC of IDF. Then an APC in most cases can carry more troops, an IFV carries lesser troops. If IFV carries 6 troops plus 3 crew, while lets say that M-113 carries 9 troops plus 2 crew, so an all IFV battalion would then need more vehicles than a regular MIB (APC equipped). Even if the MIB is a mixture of IFV and APC, that battalion may still need APCs to carry all troops securely to battlefield. Cost factor. Dismounted troops can scatter more actively than a lone IFV proving to be a bigger threat with the diverse array of weapons they carry to take out different targets - assault rifle, LMG, bazooka/RPG, mortar etc. While an IFV can engage one target at a time, the dismounted troops can engage many targets at the same time. So apart from doctrine, there are pros and cons.

Jo bhi ho bhai, bus ab IFV hi chaiye. Bring Viper in service.

But once PA was interested in US Bradley IFVs, are those also not good?? And why US adopted Striker family of vehicles if IFVs not good??

Also air burst munitions are very deadly against dismounted troops.

 

[farooqbhai007]

But once PA was interested in US Bradley IFVs, are those also not good?? And why US adopted Striker family of vehicles if IFVs not good??

Also air burst munitions are very deadly against dismounted troops.

US ka budget dekho aur apna budget dekho , stryker konsa IFV hai , us par bhi to 12.7mm rcws ya TOW laga hai , abhi pichlay kuch saal pehlay 30mm stryker draagoon introduce huwa hai jo unhon nay Europe mey bheja hai

 

[iLION12345_1]

thank you brother for clarifying. I know a little about ERA from 2001. The frame you are describing requires some modifications to the hull. I did not see that on tanks. I would also be surprised if we don’t install them as part of training in the desert as
1 it would allow us to test effectiveness or problems in high temperature environments

2)allow tanks crew to train with the increased weight and profile of the ERA.



thank you for providing this brother it looks so cool. I reconsider my statement. I hope more of our tanks specially the alkhalid get these stands for mounting ERAs. I know there was a program to install these stands as part of the overhaul.

when considering the opposition to the Karachi V CORPS. Alkhalids and type 85 vs t-72, Arjun and t-90s I think we are good. The t-72 and Arjun would be canon offer to the alkhalid but t-90s would require us to mount ERA.

please provide more info, it’s amazing to learn from friend
k

Climate testing and stuff for armor is done under specific controlled conditions, it is a hazard to have it on during an exercise, as it is during a proper battle, but that hazard is something that can be put up with during an actual OP. Soldiers are trained to not be near ERA or in lines of fire. It’s basically like standing next to a bomb. I do get where you’re coming from, it might be useful to put the armor on to simulate reality better, and I’m sure that’s done too. But it doesn’t make that big of a deal, same with Weight, the mobility characteristics of a tank like the AK do not change much with or without ERA installed as it is designed to be able to carry that weight, now if it was being overloaded, that would be something to take into account.

As for installation, The units that are deployed to forward areas as the first line of defense surely have full equipped and readied tanks, if a threat is imminent and readiness level goes up, it can be installed on the rest too, if the threat is sudden, the first line can hold long enough for the second and the third to be prepared, it’s an entire system, these exercises are a rinse and repeat of that system so when it actually needs to be done its done quickly and efficiently.

But once PA was interested in US Bradley IFVs, are those also not good?? And why US adopted Striker family of vehicles if IFVs not good??

Also air burst munitions are very deadly against dismounted troops.

Once Again, doctrine, just because something is good for the USA or India doesn’t mean it is for us. At the same time, if our sole enemy, India, doesn’t deploy something, then it might be beneficial for us to do the same too, as we can spend the resources of what’s needed more, the strategy of always buying the best of everything very rarely works. Resource management is the most important part of running the armed forces.

As for Airburst rounds, well troops have to dismount at some point, regardless of what vehicle you give them. You could give them a billion dollar Vehicle that’s immune to a direct nuclear blast, at one point, they’ll have to dismount to do their thing, that’s how infantry works. It’s a risk all militaries have to put up with. The dismounted troops aren’t just dismounted randomly as it may seem, they’re only deployed like that when they’re in safe distance of a target, they have air support and artillery support, recon units have mapped the area, the armor heads in first to take the fire, the infantry follows. No arm in a trained army is ever working alone, if your soldiers are in the open or your tanks have no support you’ve lost before you’ve started, so it’s not right to try to fix everything with the most obvious solution.

 

[Basel]

US ka budget dekho aur apna budget dekho , stryker konsa IFV hai , us par bhi to 12.7mm rcws ya TOW laga hai , abhi pichlay kuch saal pehlay 30mm stryker draagoon introduce huwa hai jo unhon nay Europe mey bheja hai

If PA can procure huge numbers of M-113s then they can buy another type to replace them, also kindly google about striker it a whole family of vehicles which also have 105mm gun mounted on them, they bring unmatched capability in NCW.

 

[farooqbhai007]

If PA can procure huge numbers of M-113s then they can buy another type to replace them, also kindly google about striker it a whole family of vehicles which also have 105mm gun mounted on them, they bring unmatched capability in NCW.

Stryker 105mm MGS is a different system not a IFV , its a FSV , if that is the case then why not put a 105mm onto a m113

 

[HRK]

The t-72 and Arjun would be canon offer to the alkhalid but t-90s would require us to mount ERA.

please provide more info, it’s amazing to learn from friend

Brother few dedicated threads are already active about AK series so you can post your question in any of those thread I am just a defence enthusiast therefore could not commit that I will surely able to reply your quires [I may IF I would have right material available with me relevant to your query] but I am sure many other more knowledgeable members would surely reply in those threads.

A Bmp-2 may face PA MBT, it may even fire an ATGM at MBT, which the MBT can survive through ERA or APS or any other countermeasure but will the Bmp-2 survive if the MBT fires from its main gun ? Seriously doubt it.

Exactly these type of situation demand Heavy IFVs like Chinese HIFV VN-11 based on T-59 it could carry 6 dismounts in addition to 3 crew members, the current turret is equipped with 30 mm cannon and HJ-73 ATGM or the current turret may be replaced with turret of ZBD-04A which is equipped with 100 mm main gun and 30 mm coaxial cannon.

If I am not wrong then the idea should not be based to use these HIFVs only as Battle Taxi but to provide superior firepower as FSV to infantry after dismounting troops, these HIFVs with their stay in active battle as FSVs will compel the enemy either to remove their BMPs from battle zone or increase the size of AT units in any case these HIFVs either decrease the risk to our tanks from enemy's AT assets as less number of Tanks would be required for Infantry support or would decrease the fire power of the enemy's Infantry by compelling the enemy to remove the BMPs, additionally in the presence of 3-4 km range ATGMs with HIFVs will pose threat to enemy tanks as well.

But again as our current doctrine is different.

its a FSV , if that is the case then why not put a 105mm onto a m113

I believe currently T-59/69 tank are used in this role even in the current video of this exercise one T-69 tank was shown was possibly related to this role.

 

[JPMM]

In case of Pakistani Battle Taxi:
While the Battle Taxi has to save its own, and can only sporadically support with a 12.7mm for fire suppression (no gun shields or half open turrets for small arms fire protection, as you could notice from the Media material

I agree with all what you said,respeito

So arriving near the objective just with a 60mm mortar and RPG-7 is adequate for storm attack ?

My guess is, the Pakistani mechanized Infantry is not training to survive but, to fulfill their task, and dying is already accepted or calculated, may be that’s the real advantage over the Indians in which the Pakistani philosophy lies, I don’t know how steel made the Indian are.


I know it’s stupid question but with your western armies knowledge would be interesting to read a dosier, would be Interesting for other South Asian Members to, how you view the Pakistani Armoured and mechanized Brigades regarding training and equipment compared to your own (western art of war) and especially to the Indians. Would you say Pakistanis are equally or superior ?

View attachment 716678

We are NATO doutrine, be it in Portugal, Norway, Turkey or Afghanistan.
M113 its a problem here, we want to get rid of it, it will go replaced by wheeled Pandur/Uro ST5. We went to Lithuania with Pandur and defined the need to install a 30mm turret with ATGM on top, BUT that could not decrease the number af troops to be carried (usually 7-8).
Pak has the same problem with their M113, its aTaxi, it needs replacement, your Doutrine will define the spreading between a wheeled APC/IFV or tracked IFV.
I think you need BOTH.

Regarding the 60mm/RPG7 question, you need to equip your Infantry (be it foot or mech) with the weapons needed to get advantage at the tactical-level. If you go fighting heavier formations, you choose time/momentun/terrain/surprise/weather to get on top of them and then just screw-them.

Dont forget money is allways the limit, and Pak Army is very big, so changing the socks model is very expensive. I give you the Rifle example, we are using the G3 since 1961 and "parcially" replaced it with SCAR in 2019, in Pak it will take more time and money.

The only way to compare Armies is in War with each other. In Alcaçer Kibir we had a shining heavy cavalry (some German), Italian and Spanish colourfull troops, but we lost to the Moors. In Aljubarrota Portuguese Infantry covered by British Longbowmen slaughtered two generations of Spanish nobleman that were duing a heavy cavalry charge on a narrow valley. It can appening again, on the same place an foot Infantry Battalion with good ATGM/ATW can destroy a Tank regiment charging in that same valley. Its all about combined arms formations.

Pakistan advantage to India is morale/training/doctrine. Comparing equippment types and numbers its shooting your feet!

Regards