Tribune survey: Online Pakistanis ‘Muslim’ first, ‘Pakistani’ second

[it'sok]

No my friend. Not many hold the concept of Nationalism to be unislamic but there are people out there, including me, who think that ethnicity or linguistic based nationalism is not the way to go.

Same is the case with religion. don't you think?

 

[Jackdaws]

By Punjabi brand of Islam - I mean that Pakistan at independence was supposed to be a secular nation, the world's largest Muslim nation and a home for all Indian Muslims. Today - it is neither of these 3. It ceased to be secular as if a country which was 98% Muslim needed to declare itself Islamic. Indonesia is the world's largest Muslim nation because East Pak is now B'desh and the safe haven for Indian Muslims closed its doors to Indian Muslims a long time ago. Why did this happen?

Because the Punjabis sought to dominate the rest of their country through their misrule and their import of Wahabbi Islam from the Arabs. Islam in India was always more Sufi oriented and had a more Persian slant than an Arab one - hence even today you will hear the Persian greeting in India - Khuda Hafiz, not the Arab - Allah Hafiz. From I gather, the former is going out of vogue in Pakistan as the Punjabis forcibly push the rest of the country into a more Arabized society. It definitely did not work with the Bengalis. I doubt it will work with the Baloch or the Sindhis although the Pathans who are already Talibanized would love it. Poor Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan must be turning in his grave.

 

[Armstrong]

Same is the case with religion. don't you think?

I don't quite follow, please elucidate a bit more, for me.

 

[it'sok]

By Punjabi brand of Islam - I mean that Pakistan at independence was supposed to be a secular nation, the world's largest Muslim nation and a home for all Indian Muslims. Today - it is neither of these 3. It ceased to be secular as if a country which was 98% Muslim needed to declare itself Islamic. Indonesia is the world's largest Muslim nation because East Pak is now B'desh and the safe haven for Indian Muslims closed its doors to Indian Muslims a long time ago. Why did this happen?

Because the Punjabis sought to dominate the rest of their country through their misrule and their import of Wahabbi Islam from the Arabs. Islam in India was always more Sufi oriented and had a more Persian slant than an Arab one - hence even today you will hear the Persian greeting in India - Khuda Hafiz, not the Arab - Allah Hafiz. From I gather, the former is going out of vogue in Pakistan as the Punjabis forcibly push the rest of the country into a more Arabized society. It definitely did not work with the Bengalis. I doubt it will work with the Baloch or the Sindhis although the Pathans who are already Talibanized would love it. Poor Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan must be turning in his grave.

It's myth. Jinnah himself was confused on this one.

 

[haywards]

are yar....leave them whtever they like...

 

[it'sok]

I don't quite follow, please elucidate a bit more, for me.

You wrote and I quote "there are people out there, including me, who think that ethnicity or linguistic based nationalism is not the way to go"

Don't you think religion also comes along with that ethinic, Liguistic differences? As in multiethnic, multiligual ,multireligious nations (are a way to go)

 

[Android]

Pakistanis are not perfect but our religion is superior to others¡¯ 53% of locals agreed with it.

thats the reason i hate islam you muslims dont consider people of other faith as equal and consider them to be inferiors and you think that just being muslim makes you superior to them

 

[Jackdaws]

It's myth. Jinnah himself was confused on this one.

Actually, he wasn't confused at all. He was quite clear on this line. He did not even expect the killings or the sheer amount of blood which would be shed. Neither did Nehru. After all both Jinnah and Nehru were ridiculously rich and upper crust Indians who did not have a handle on everyday life of an Indian. They assumed that the partition would not be smooth but would still be relatively bloodless. Oh well, both should have listened to the man who kind of figured long back that the $hit's gonna hit the fan.

---------- Post added at 02:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------

thats the reason i hate islam you muslims dont consider people of other faith as equal and consider them to be inferiors and you think that just being muslim makes you superior to them

Nice. So you counterbalance bigotry by being a bigot yourself?

 

[Android]

Actually, he wasn't confused at all. He was quite clear on this line. He did not even expect the killings or the sheer amount of blood which would be shed. Neither did Nehru. After all both Jinnah and Nehru were ridiculously rich and upper crust Indians who did not have a handle on everyday life of an Indian. They assumed that the partition would not be smooth but would still be relatively bloodless. Oh well, both should have listened to the man who kind of figured long back that the $hit's gonna hit the fan.

---------- Post added at 02:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------



Nice. So you counterbalance bigotry by being a bigot yourself?

jinnah and nehru both were power hungry both of them wanted to rule india but jinnah realised that he won't be able to beat nehru in elections so he came up with the stupid and selfish idea of partition so he can get piece of a cake

 

[it'sok]

Actually, he wasn't confused at all. He was quite clear on this line. He did not even expect the killings or the sheer amount of blood which would be shed. Neither did Nehru. After all both Jinnah and Nehru were ridiculously rich and upper crust Indians who did not have a handle on everyday life of an Indian. They assumed that the partition would not be smooth but would still be relatively bloodless. Oh well, both should have listened to the man who kind of figured long back that the $hit's gonna hit the fan.

---------- Post added at 02:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------



Nice. So you counterbalance bigotry by being a bigot yourself?

i think the guy used the word 'hate' in the sense.. say.. i hate chocolate shakes.

Anyway it's true that most well educated Muslims actually feel quite disgusted when their religious leaders preach that Islam is a 'superior religion' or 'one true religion' and many Muslims actually believe this.

Fact of the matter is that not many really are aware of other religions. For example if you ask Muslims about hindusim, they ll probably call you idol worshiper(shirk-sin of idolatry) or polytheist (mushrik) and cow worshiper etc., they don't even know much about other relgions except for vague knowledge of other Abrahmic religions like Judaism and Christianity again with many misconceptions.

---------- Post added at 01:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 PM ----------

jinnah and nehru both were power hungry both of them wanted to rule india but jinnah realised that he won't be able to beat nehru in elections so he came up with the stupid and selfish idea of partition so he can get piece of a cake

over simplification.

there's a big invisible hand of Muslim Feudal lords in partition.

 

[Armstrong]

By Punjabi brand of Islam - I mean that Pakistan at independence was supposed to be a secular nation, the world's largest Muslim nation and a home for all Indian Muslims. Today - it is neither of these 3. It ceased to be secular as if a country which was 98% Muslim needed to declare itself Islamic. Indonesia is the world's largest Muslim nation because East Pak is now B'desh and the safe haven for Indian Muslims closed its doors to Indian Muslims a long time ago. Why did this happen?

Because the Punjabis sought to dominate the rest of their country through their misrule and their import of Wahabbi Islam from the Arabs. Islam in India was always more Sufi oriented and had a more Persian slant than an Arab one - hence even today you will hear the Persian greeting in India - Khuda Hafiz, not the Arab - Allah Hafiz. From I gather, the former is going out of vogue in Pakistan as the Punjabis forcibly push the rest of the country into a more Arabized society. It definitely did not work with the Bengalis. I doubt it will work with the Baloch or the Sindhis although the Pathans who are already Talibanized would love it. Poor Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan must be turning in his grave.

Let me introduce myself to you. I am an ethnic Kashmiri who speaks the Urdu language as his mother tongue and I'm fiercely proud of both. Furthermore, I live in Lahore, Punjab and Lahore is dearer to me then even Mecca ever can be. Do you know why ? The answer is Punjab and its culture. My friend, the Punjabi culture is characterized by inclusivity, and this is valid for both Punjabis on both sides of the divide. In Pakistan what this means is that you may belong to any ethnic or linguistic or, to, unfortunately, a lesser extent, to any religion, but as a Pakistani you are one of us.
Punjab is home to millions of Baloch, Sindhis, Pathans, Kashmiris, Urdu-Speakers and a whole host of other nationalities. At the time of the partition millions crossed into what is present day Pakistani Punjab and millions did settle here. If anecdotal evidence is anything to go by, millions of Urdu-Speakers (or Mohajirs) are settled in Punjab's cities. Not once has any single Punjabi leader, never mind the people of Punjab, have ever cried foul that our language or our demography or our jobs are under threat because of these 'others', these 'Non-Punjabis'. As someone who isn't an ethnic Punjabi and who speaks the Punjabi language with an accent that would give BullehShah a heart attack, I have never seen a single instance of even the most mildest form of ethnicity or linguistic based discrimination in Punjab. I have never, ever, had the feeling of being 'the other', nor have my parents, nor my siblings or anyone of my non-Punjabi friends, for the culture of Punjab would find such kind of exclusivity as being utterly unacceptable.

As for the Islamic bit: Yes, there are many Muslims amongst us (across the provinces) who equate Arabinization with Islam and who do follow a fairly rigid interpretation of Islam. Thankfully, contrary to the world opinion, they are a minority. We wouldn't be having so many Urs in Punjab if Sufism hadn't roots here. Besides, there isn't a Wahabi Islam and a Sufi Islam - there are may different streams of Islam. The majority of us here do not prescribe to a rigid interpretation of Islam but we don't go to Mazars or Saintly Mausoleums either, and yet we are peace loving people. Allah Hafez and Khuda Hafez are both very much said here and neither is one Arabic nor the other Persian, for Hafez is a Persian word per se.

As for Pakistan being a secular state turned into something else. Whether Pakistan was supposed to be a Secular state or an Islamist one is a moot point because Islam enshrines all that Jinnah talked about : democracy, religious pluralism, equality, women's emancipation, liberalism and education. As it so happens, the Pakistan of today is neither Islamic in the purest sense of the word nor is it Secular - its anything but Jinnah and Iqbal's Pakistan.

 

[Baby Leone]

thats the reason i hate islam you muslims dont consider people of other faith as equal and consider them to be inferiors and you think that just being muslim makes you superior to them

you r wrong the survey doesn't represent whole pakistani muslims....plus IMO none of the religion makes you superior its just our Acts which makes us superior, soo before comenting use ur brains tht 1600 ppls cannt just represent 170 million ppls their influence, thinking etc.....

 

[it'sok]

Let me introduce myself to you. I am an ethnic Kashmiri who speaks the Urdu language as his mother tongue and I'm fiercely proud of both. Furthermore, I live in Lahore, Punjab and Lahore is dearer to me then even Mecca ever can be. Do you know why ? The answer is Punjab and its culture. My friend, the Punjabi culture is characterized by inclusivity, and this is valid for both Punjabis on both sides of the divide. In Pakistan what this means is that you may belong to any ethnic or linguistic or, to, unfortunately, a lesser extent, to any religion, but as a Pakistani you are one of us.
Punjab is home to millions of Baloch, Sindhis, Pathans, Kashmiris, Urdu-Speakers and a whole host of other nationalities. At the time of the partition millions crossed into what is present day Pakistani Punjab and millions did settle here. If anecdotal evidence is anything to go by, millions of Urdu-Speakers (or Mohajirs) are settled in Punjab's cities. Not once has any single Punjabi leader, never mind the people of Punjab, have ever cried foul that our language or our demography or our jobs are under threat because of these 'others', these 'Non-Punjabis'. As someone who isn't an ethnic Punjabi and who speaks the Punjabi language with an accent that would give BullehShah a heart attack, I have never seen a single instance of even the most mildest form of ethnicity or linguistic based discrimination in Punjab. I have never, ever, had the feeling of being 'the other', nor have my parents, nor my siblings or anyone of my non-Punjabi friends, for the culture of Punjab would find such kind of exclusivity as being utterly unacceptable.

As for the Islamic bit: Yes, there are many Muslims amongst us (across the provinces) who equate Arabinization with Islam and who do follow a fairly rigid interpretation of Islam. Thankfully, contrary to the world opinion, they are a minority. We wouldn't be having so many Urs in Punjab if Sufism hadn't roots here. Besides, there isn't a Wahabi Islam and a Sufi Islam - there are may different streams of Islam. The majority of us here do not prescribe to a rigid interpretation of Islam but we don't go to Mazars or Saintly Mausoleums either, and yet we are peace loving people. Allah Hafez and Khuda Hafez are both very much said here and neither is one Arabic nor the other Persian, for Hafez is a Persian word per se.

As for Pakistan being a secular state turned into something else. Whether Pakistan was supposed to be a Secular state or an Islamist one is a moot point because Islam enshrines all that Jinnah talked about : democracy, religious pluralism, equality, women's emancipation, liberalism and education. As it so happens, the Pakistan of today is neither Islamic in the purest sense of the word nor is it Secular - its anything but Jinnah and Iqbal's Pakistan.

This is a lie and i only get this from Pakistani people more than people from other Muslim countries.

probably to justify partition.

Religious Pluralism? I am sure now Dhimmitude would be appreciated by all religions.

 

[Armstrong]

You wrote and I quote "there are people out there, including me, who think that ethnicity or linguistic based nationalism is not the way to go"

Don't you think religion also comes along with that ethinic, Liguistic differences? As in multiethnic, multiligual ,multireligious nations (are a way to go)

If religion is just a set of rituals or theological dogmas, then yes. If it has an opinion on a whole host of other issues - then its a bit more complicate than that. Tis true, that religious and legal pluralism, democracy, women's emancipation etc. aren't followed in any Muslim State out there, however, both the Turkish Millet System and the Al Andalusia are shinning examples of what those could stand for so many years ago. We've lost our way to a much more bigoted and perverted version of Islam espoused by dimwitted, illiterate Moulvis and we have to rectify it, otherwise, God will never forgive us for the things we do.

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

<PAKISTANI FIRST... MUSLIM SECOND... BALUCH THIRD.

Human ?????