Tribune survey: Online Pakistanis ‘Muslim’ first, ‘Pakistani’ second

[it'sok]

If religion is just a set of rituals or theological dogmas, then yes. If it has an opinion on a whole host of other issues - then its a bit more complicate than that. Tis true, that religious and legal pluralism, democracy, women's emancipation etc. aren't followed in any Muslim State out there, however, both the Turkish Millet System and the Al Andalusia are shinning examples of what those could stand for so many years ago. We've lost our way to a much more bigoted and perverted version of Islam espoused by dimwitted, illiterate Moulvis and we have to rectify it, otherwise, God will never forgive us for the things we do.

Do you honestly think that Islam is NOT a theological dogma and has no rituals(yes, I can explain that)? Forget about it's opinions about other things for a moment. just answer my question.

---------- Post added at 02:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:19 PM ----------

Human ?????

oh .. how silly .. That's way down the line.

first muslim

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

thats the reason i hate islam you muslims dont consider people of other faith as equal and consider them to be inferiors and you think that just being muslim makes you superior to them

Wrong reaction.. Its not Islam that deserves your hate.. Its the idiots who preach this distorted version of Islam that do...

 

[it'sok]

Wrong reaction.. Its not Islam that deserves your hate.. Its the idiots who preach this distorted version of Islam that do...

You are wrong too..

Don't hate people. hate the ideology.

 

[Armstrong]

This is a lie and i only get this from Pakistani people more than people from other Muslim countries.

probably to justify partition.

Religious Pluralism? I am sure now Dhimmitude would be appreciated by all religions.

I have nothing to be apologetic for, with respect to the Partition. Half of my family was cut down in Kashmir - Allahumdolilah we got our freedom.

However at the same time, as you rightly pointed out, Dhimmitude (I'm not sure if thats a proper word) is a very real problem for us. For this attitude of many Muslims reeks of exclusivity and we need to reasses the old laws in both letter but more so in spirit. Iqbal lamented this and tried to set the ball rolling when he wrote 'Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam'...ever so unfortunately no one followed up with it. The Islamic states of today are even less Islamic than the ones in Ages past. The Ottomans with their Turkish Millet System epitomized inclusivity, religious and legal pluralism at that time. The Muslim state of Al-Andalusia had scholars like Maimonides, a devout Jew, who would debate with leading Muslim philosophers and theologians without fear of reprisal. The same Maimonides whose work has canonical value in Talmudic law devised many aspects of Jewish law for the Jews in Cordoba as per the State's stance on legal pluralism. Us the successor states who were supposed to take this concept even further as soon the contemporary concept of a nation state and citizenry had evolved, even regressed further and have now become bigoted and fascistic in many a things we do. We do a lot that the Prophet, that Jinnah, that Iqbal, would find utterly unacceptable.

---------- Post added at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 PM ----------

Do you honestly think that Islam is NOT a theological dogma and has no rituals(yes, I can explain that)? Forget about it's opinions about other things for a moment. just answer my question.

I was implying not JUST a. When something has a significant opinion on economics, law, social interactions and politics, it transcends juts rituals and dogmas - in fact, thats exactly, the Sufi side of faith.

 

[it'sok]

I have nothing to be apologetic for, with respect to the Partition. Half of my family was cut down in Kashmir - Allahumdolilah we got our freedom.

However at the same time, as you rightly pointed out, Dhimmitude (I'm not sure if thats a proper word) is a very real problem for us. For this attitude of many Muslims reeks of exclusivity and we need to reasses the old laws in both letter but more so in spirit. Iqbal lamented this and tried to set the ball rolling when he wrote 'Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam'...ever so unfortunately no one followed up with it. The Islamic states of today are even less Islamic than the ones in Ages past. The Ottomans with their Turkish Millet System epitomized inclusivity, religious and legal pluralism at that time. The Muslim state of Al-Andalusia had scholars like Maimonides, a devout Jew, who would debate with leading Muslim philosophers and theologians without fear of reprisal. The same Maimonides whose work has canonical value in Talmudic law devised many aspects of Jewish law for the Jews in Cordoba as per the State's stance on legal pluralism. Us the successor states who were supposed to take this concept even further as soon the contemporary concept of a nation state and citizenry had evolved, even regressed further and have now become bigoted and fascistic in many a things we do. We do a lot that the Prophet, that Jinnah, that Iqbal, would find utterly unacceptable.

Now that's evading the responsibility of fundamental issues with Quran.
Isn't Quran from God?
Did you read quran? I really don't think you did.

 

[Sinnerman108]

They lost East Pakistan because of trying to shove Punjabi brand of Islam down their countrymen's throats. Perhaps they will lose Balochistan and Sindh next.

By Punjabi brand of Islam - I mean that Pakistan at independence was supposed to be a secular nation, the world's largest Muslim nation and a home for all Indian Muslims. Today - it is neither of these 3. It ceased to be secular as if a country which was 98% Muslim needed to declare itself Islamic. Indonesia is the world's largest Muslim nation because East Pak is now B'desh and the safe haven for Indian Muslims closed its doors to Indian Muslims a long time ago. Why did this happen?

Because the Punjabis sought to dominate the rest of their country through their misrule and their import of Wahabbi Islam from the Arabs. Islam in India was always more Sufi oriented and had a more Persian slant than an Arab one - hence even today you will hear the Persian greeting in India - Khuda Hafiz, not the Arab - Allah Hafiz. From I gather, the former is going out of vogue in Pakistan as the Punjabis forcibly push the rest of the country into a more Arabized society. It definitely did not work with the Bengalis. I doubt it will work with the Baloch or the Sindhis although the Pathans who are already Talibanized would love it. Poor Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan must be turning in his grave.

The last thing we need is for someone from Hindu-stan to teach us about our religion.
Terms such as punjabi army, and now Punjabi Islam are invented by a looser group ( and you know what i mean).
Pak Army is one of the most fair institutions and follows strict parameters irrespective of creed / class / ethnicity.

Neither Allah Hafiz nor Khuda Hafiz are arabic NOR persian.
These salutations are specific to the subcontinent.

Punjab divided or pre-partition would have dominated ANY state in the subcontinent.
It has more water, agriculture and young workforce than any other state. ( the person who won me over with this argument was an indian Councillor in a certain embassy ).

Punjab has very less to do with "wahabi" islam. Punjab leans towards the more "sufi" traits.


Ok, enough or do you want more education ?
Next time, value your dignity and don't make comments about what you don't understand.

jinnah and nehru both were power hungry both of them wanted to rule india but jinnah realised that he won't be able to beat nehru in elections so he came up with the stupid and selfish idea of partition so he can get piece of a cake

Your lack of knowledge and inability to study history will continue to cause you shame.
The Idea of Pakistan was proposed by Dr Allama Iqbal.
The reason for the idea was simple. i.e Muslims in a unified Hindu-stan will always be a minority and will not be able to achieve their future goals.

 

[it'sok]

I have nothing to be apologetic for, with respect to the Partition. Half of my family was cut down in Kashmir - Allahumdolilah we got our freedom.

However at the same time, as you rightly pointed out, Dhimmitude (I'm not sure if thats a proper word) is a very real problem for us. For this attitude of many Muslims reeks of exclusivity and we need to reasses the old laws in both letter but more so in spirit. Iqbal lamented this and tried to set the ball rolling when he wrote 'Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam'...ever so unfortunately no one followed up with it. The Islamic states of today are even less Islamic than the ones in Ages past. The Ottomans with their Turkish Millet System epitomized inclusivity, religious and legal pluralism at that time. The Muslim state of Al-Andalusia had scholars like Maimonides, a devout Jew, who would debate with leading Muslim philosophers and theologians without fear of reprisal. The same Maimonides whose work has canonical value in Talmudic law devised many aspects of Jewish law for the Jews in Cordoba as per the State's stance on legal pluralism. Us the successor states who were supposed to take this concept even further as soon the contemporary concept of a nation state and citizenry had evolved, even regressed further and have now become bigoted and fascistic in many a things we do. We do a lot that the Prophet, that Jinnah, that Iqbal, would find utterly unacceptable.

---------- Post added at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 PM ----------



I was implying not JUST a. When something has a significant opinion on economics, law, social interactions and politics, it transcends juts rituals and dogmas - in fact, thats exactly, the Sufi side of faith.

i did understand that. I asked something else.

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

You are wrong too..

Don't hate people. hate the ideology.

not true.. Its these people who create the distorted ideology in the first place.. Please note I am not hating people who practice a distorted ideology (since they are victims themselves) but the ones who create and preach that..

and here is an example right on cue

The last thing we need is for someone from Hindu-stan to teach us about our religion.

 

[it'sok]

not true.. Its these people who create the distorted ideology in the first place.. Please note I am not hating people who practice a distorted ideology (since they are victims themselves) but the ones who create and preach that..

Just look at the post by the gentlemen with Operative name Armstrong ..

He writes "The Islamic states of today are even less Islamic than the ones in Ages past. The Ottomans with their Turkish Millet System epitomized inclusivity, religious and legal pluralism at that time."

Now he actually believes that.

Only if he knew about the Slave trade and innocent girls that suffered during that times (which is the biggest ever in the History of man kind.)
Only if he knew about people who were killed , actually got killed for Blasphemy during the times.

 

[Armstrong]

Now that's evading the responsibility of fundamental issues with Quran.
Isn't Quran from God?
Did you read quran? I really don't think you did.

No, no one is evading the responsibility of fundamental issues with the Quran, I'm rather lamenting our ineptitude in sorting it out. But I honestly don't understand what your saying here...just as I didn't understand that other question of yours. Perhaps if you will oblige me with a more detailed answer, I would try to reply as best as I can.

 

[it'sok]

No, no one is evading the responsibility of fundamental issues with the Quran, I'm rather lamenting our ineptitude in sorting it out. But I honestly don't understand what your saying here...just as I didn't understand that other question of yours. Perhaps if you will oblige me with a more detailed answer, I would try to reply as best as I can.

May be we are both talking on different levels here.

Anyway, have this kind of conversation with a good Theologian (preferably not an Islam-Apologetic).

 

[Zarvan]

Tribune survey: Online Pakistanis ‘Muslim’ first, ‘Pakistani’ second

A majority of Pakistan’s internet users say they consider themselves ‘Muslim first’ (49%) , ‘Pakistani’ second (28%) while 23% voted ‘Other’, a survey conducted by The Express Tribune found. On the flipside, the survey results also showed that overseas Pakistanis identified more with being a ‘Pakistani’ than a ‘Muslim’ as compared to locals.

The survey, taken by more than 1,600 online Pakistanis, including expats was designed to measure the population on three different scales: their level of tolerance, level of religiosity and adherence to tradition.

While 77% of online Pakistanis expressed a belief in a supernatural being, only 46% said they identified themselves as a religious person. Some 75% said they believed in the existence of ‘Heaven and Hell’.

A majority of Muslim respondents (63%) agreed to the statement that “Pakistanis are not perfect but our religion is superior to others”.
In a core finding related to tolerance, 66% of Pakistanis voted against the need to influence others to share their set of beliefs. However, only 11% of total respondents said they would experiment with other belief systems.

Men do their own research
Women proved to be more traditional than men with 72% saying that they shared the same religious beliefs as their parents. A large number of male respondents said they had reached their current set of beliefs through research, while a majority of females said that they were raised that way.
The online survey found males were more inclined than women to researching new ideas and more willing to explore their beliefs. On the other hand men (36%) felt it was important to influence others when it comes to religion.

Education and age
The survey found that those who were older, and those holding a doctorate degree exhibited the greatest degree of tolerance and openness to religious plurality.
Older age groups (30+) and doctorate degree holders also exhibited lowest religiosity, suggesting that higher education and greater age results in lower religiosity.

Muslims and Non-religious groups
The sample consisted largely of Muslim respondents and those who identified themselves as non-religious. While members of other religious communities did respond to the survey their results were too few to be conclusive. In general, the Muslim segment gave very different responses to the non-religious segment, displaying a greater degree of intolerance and traditional thinking. Interestingly, a larger majority of the non-religious segment (92%) said they had researched other belief systems as compared to Muslims (72%).

Locals and Expats
The survey found expats exhibited slightly lower religiosity than local respondents. For example the local population showed greater belief in Heaven and Hell, was more regular in prayers and identified more to scripture. Expats were inclined to be more egalitarian than local respondents with reference to religious tolerance.

While a majority of expats disagreed with the statement ‘Pakistanis are not perfect but our religion is superior to others’ 53% of locals agreed with it. Fewer expats (35%) voted in favor of needing God to be moral, compared to locals (44%). A greater number of expats (81%) said they had researched other belief systems, as compared to locals (75%).

Scope of the research
The survey was available for three days during the month of January, 2012 and The Express Tribune obtained over 1,600 results from online Pakistanis and expats. The figures and information presented in this report only provide information about religious perceptions in Pakistan with reference to the online audience’s views.

Read the complete findings of the Pakistan Religious Identity Online survey report here.

Published in The Express Tribune, February 16th, 2012.

Most Muslims Identify themselves as Muslims first because for a Muslim Islam is the most important thing in the world we live for Islam we die for Islam and our only passion is to serve Islam at any cost even if it is our lives so even do this in Bangladesh or Malaysia or Indonesia or Saudi Arabia muslims will like to identify themselves as Muslim first

 

[Evil Flare]

any other surveys from Muslim World .. or these researchers only do their work in Pakistan

 

[it'sok]

Most Muslims Identify themselves as Muslims first because for a Muslim Islam is the most important thing in the world we live for Islam we die for Islam and our only passion is to serve Islam at any cost even if it is our lives so even do this in Bangladesh or Malaysia or Indonesia or Saudi Arabia muslims will like to identify themselves as Muslim first

If Muslim like you really die for Islam and go to jannah, then rest of the Humanity can have jannah in the world.

 

[SQ8]

Now that's evading the responsibility of fundamental issues with Quran.
Isn't Quran from God?
Did you read quran? I really don't think you did.

Neither did you apparently.