Towards a new & Improved Fauj

[Developereo]

AG, India maintain capabilities, and these we must be sober about, however, we need to realize that those who may actually be involved with us in a hostile manner, are more than likely, not the Indian. The Indian after centuries, now enjoys 10% growth rates, and we are to believe the Indian is eager to have us evaporate them and this achievement to hell ??

I think the OBL raid has actually revitalized the India threat. Already they are talking about conducting similar raids and, under a hardline BJP government, they may actually try it. The rising economy is also fueling rising nationalism, with commensurate demands for power projection.

I agree that it is a hypothetical future threat, and the jihadi threats are current and concrete, but just to keep it in mind in case someone thinks the Indian threat can be downgraded.

 

[ejaz007]

Al right then - contrast the performance of the largest military run foundations and companies with the performance of the largest Public Sector Enterprizes.

Fauji Foundation along paid hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes, while the largest PSE's lose around $3 billion annually.

Military run benefit, education and residential programs function largely without major corruption scandals and accusations of inept administration.

This is not to suggest that the military does no have its flaws, scandals and performance issues, but that compared to the civilian leadership and institutions, it performs much, much better at what it does.

Room for improvement in the military? Absolutely, but there is significantly more room for improvement on the civilian side, and it is far more necessary.

There is corruption in military. No doubt about that. Why they get away with it. Because they are not bound to carry out independent audit. The organization that is responsible for their audit is also under instructions to look other way when they found out about some thing.

 

[Xeric]

There is corruption in military. No doubt about that. Why they get away with it. Because they are not bound to carry out independent audit. The organization that is responsible for their audit is also under instructions to look other way when they found out about some thing.

Hmmm...that's a news to me.

i wonder why then Chuadary Riaz have been bullshiting Jarnails during PAC Meetings.

 

[Xeric]

Why must you compare military run foundations to their civilian counterparts?

If the civilian enterprises/companies are corrupt, does that mean that the military have a free hand in being corrupt as well.

No it does not mean this. No one should be above the law and no one has any excuse for screwing around. BTW, i am still thinking how did you manage to link AM's post with this (the above) scenario? Comparison was probably meant to compare the outputs and the efficiencies, not that it would allow the military run establishments to embezzles at the same rate as of the civilians.

All this deflection only allows the military to continue with their corrupt ways and because of a lack of any accountability, they get away with large scale corruption that does not even get heard of.

Just because they have kept their corrupt ways out of the news does not mean they are not involved in perhaps the largest corruption scandals in the history of this nation.

I could tell you of grand corruption scandals that do not even get a mention in the press because of our armies involvement in them.

This whole mindset has allowed the army to function the way it does and look where we stand today.

Let's wind up this argument for once and all. Please quote some of examples, let's see exactly how corrupt our military can be when it comes to managing private enterprises.

As i have always reiterated that black sheep are everywhere, the Naval Chief's exodus, the NLC scam etc are all well known, so let's talk something with more mirch masala, right? And please, spare me the effort if you want to discuss the DHAs and Askaris.

Which makes you wonder if the oft used tagline "bloody civilians" came from...
perhaps to cover their own tracks??

Strange to see a Mod a flaming it out


P.S. Atleast you guys can talk in more definite terms, right?

 

[T-Faz]

No it does not mean this. No one should be above the law and no one has any excuse for screwing around. BTW, i am still thinking how did you manage to link AM's post with this (the above) scenario? Comparison was probably meant to compare the outputs and the efficiencies, not that it would allow the military run establishments to embezzles at the same rate as of the civilians.

AM's arguments revolve around unnecessary comparisons of the military to its civilian counterpart for the sake of deflecting from the topic at hand. My post was in regards to his oft comparison whereby he used the corruption amongst the civilian service as a means to justify what has occurred in Pakistan's military outfit. He wasn't comparing the efficiency and the turnover but rather citing the example of mass losses in civilian enterprises which can be attributed to mass corruption, the military on the other hand is not accountable to anyone and is able to work more efficiently, turning a good number for their own pockets.

Let's wind up this argument for once and all. Please quote some of examples, let's see exactly how corrupt our military can be when it comes to managing private enterprises.

Lt. Gen Fazle Haq, his use of private enterprises and his official position allowed him to conduct large scale illegal operations in Pakistan, most of which are not known to the general public, he was worth a lot of money too.

Gen. Akhtar Abdur Rahman was very efficient in using pvt enterprises in raising a little money for himself, his children are worth a lot of money today, "two billion dollars, my foot" was his reply to an allegation by Ijaz, his fathers colleagues son.

Gen. Gul, he was able to muscle out all other competitors so that his own business could flourish, his connections were very deep and run that deep to this day.

Gen Baig & Gen. Durrani were accused by their own political product Shareef of being involved in a specific illegal trade for raising funds.

Colonel Billa too was a useful man for a number of reasons, he was involved in a number of scandals involving some big names.

Even Gen. Ayub Khan, a man I greatly admired had his share of pie during his rule.

Gen Zia made a lot of money too, so much so that his son can buy votes en-mass, they have a number of homes around the world too.

As i have always reiterated that black sheep are everywhere, the Naval Chief's exodus, the NLC scam etc are all well known, so let's talk something with more mirch masala, right? And please, spare me the effort if you want to discuss the DHAs and Askaris.

I have given enough examples to discuss for now, there are many more and when I refer to corruption, I am not being specific about enterprises but rather the massive corruption that occurs wherever it can.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Gen Fazle Haq if I recall correctly was said to be into Heroin smuggling even!!!

Gen Ayub I think was the start of all this Capitalist greed inside Pak Army...

If I may add a personal touch to this... a cousin of mine was denied the sword of honour in Risalpur because his relative was the COAS at that time and my uncle and the COAS did not get well along with each other... my cousin deserved the sword without a shred of a doubt... Talk about Nepotism and Grudges...

 

[VCheng]

Gen Fazle Haq if I recall correctly was said to be into Heroin smuggling even!!!

......

Not said to be, he was!

In fact, there is a BBC recording made with him sitting in the lawn of the Governor House in Peshawar actually admitting that he was involved in drug smuggling, and tried to justify it with twisted logic.

 

[muse]

In keeping with the thrust of this thread:



Raiding the challenge
By Ejaz Haider
Published: May 10, 2011

The writer was a Ford Scholar at the Programme in Arms Control, Disarmament and International Security at UIUC (1997) and a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution’s Foreign Policy Studies Programme

The American special forces raid that got Osama bin Laden has brought into sharp salience several structural problems that beset Pakistan, none of them new but all of them now up for a pressing debate. Consider.

The first issue is a well-known one — namely, the civil-military imbalance. While the military was reeling from the embarrassment of the raid and its implications, the civilian principals were going ahead with the oath-taking of PML-Q ministers inducted in the government to keep it afloat even as it remains largely dysfunctional. The sense was, we don’t know anything, it’s not our domain, and the military is handling it.

There was a mix of indifference and inability, because of lack of capacity, to formulate a response, and just a tinge of schadenfreude at finding the military in a tight spot. What was left unsaid was more important than what was said: The military likes to be in the driver’s seat on foreign and security policies, so let them clean up the mess also.

The irony, however, is that while this moment gives the civilian principals an opportunity to turn it into an episode and extract space for themselves, they are unlikely to do so because secret happiness at the military’s unease does not automatically translate into the ability to proactively take charge of the country’s affairs.

It’s a vicious cycle. The military says it doesn’t want to be upfront but is often pushed into that role because the civilian side of the power configuration simply couldn’t care less. But even factoring in the civilian indifference and lack of capacity, this argument employs dissembling by focusing on the immediate rather than looking at the longer trajectory. After years of keeping the civilians away from monitoring itself, the military cannot now blame them for not having the capacity to deal with foreign and security policies without acknowledging two things — it must accept blame for such lack of capacity in the civilian enclave and it should admit that its organisational biases have helped perpetuate the status quo. While it keeps doing tactical adjustments, its broader definition of security remains largely unchanged.

This leads to another structural problem. How does Pakistan formulate a national response to the current situation? Presently, the sum-total of foreign and security policies is perceived by the majority of people as the military’s response. That perception, grounded in reality, has not helped the country.

The third problem thrown up by the military’s dominance is the subservience of foreign policy to the security policy. This structural anomaly has dogged us since the fifties. One of its results is that Pakistan has always tried to develop a military response to potential threats even as those threats, for the most part, have evolved and often matured because of its military responses. What we see is the spillage and backwash of the same policies that were, and are, supposed to secure Pakistan.

States address threats through a multitude of policies, military and non-military. In fact, where institutions are not out of joint or where the military is not the dominant player, hard and soft components of power supplement each other. While hard power is meant to secure space for the projection of soft power, the latter, a consequence of knowledge-based society and economy, procures for the state the scientific-technological capacity and lucre that adds to the hard power.

By making foreign policy kowtow to security policy, Pakistan has reduced rather than enhanced its options to both address existing threats and prevent new ones from developing. Not only has the Foreign Office steadily lost space to the military-intelligence combine, it has now developed a group of officers, retired and serving, who generally favour military responses to threats instead of developing non-military sets of policies to increase security. This approach has left Pakistan with little room for deft manoeuvring.

The security-dominated approach has also meant little or no emphasis on developing other sectors — trade, economy, education, infrastructure and industrial development, culture etc. The quality of human resource is mind-bogglingly poor. These limitations, each in its own right and all in tandem with each other, throw up internal threats far in excess of any external aggression.

Add to these indices the problem of growing intolerance and proactive and politically-motivated religiosity that wants to capture the state and has an interminable supply of recruits from among the youth bulge and we are talking about a veritable, fast-ticking time bomb. To think that any of these threats can rely on military responses would be to take naïveté to its most naive.

The military leadership says the American attacking force could come in and leave undetected because they used highly advanced technical means. Correct. They also say that a military which survives on a budget of $4.2 billion cannot be expected to match, in a direct contest, a military whose funds are now exceeding $500 billion. True. But there is a reality beyond these stats. The US would not have had to violate Pakistan’s sovereignty if we had not straitjacketed ourselves through policies that are rejected by the entire world, friends and foes alike.

So, this is not just an issue of developing military responses. This ingress should give us some food for thought about how to define security — or more aptly, how to redefine it. That is a challenge Pakistan has been refusing to take on. Given the consequences, the country cannot afford to leave these issues unattended.

Let there be no doubt that a state needs hard power. Nor should this analysis be jumped on as justifying a pacifist approach. The paradox of strategy is captured most incisively by the Roman dictum si vis pacem para bellum — if you want to have peace, prepare [for] war. I hold by this. But my point is related to two other facts: One, preparing for war does not mean fighting one; it means deterring war. Two, such preparation is not just a function of having a strong military but requires a strong nation. And a nation is much more than the military it keeps as a manifestation not just of its hard power but also, crucially, as a symbol of its own consensus and identity.

The Pakistani military has failed singularly in the performance of both functions. It has pursued policies that have diluted deterrence and it has alienated itself from the people of this country. Is the military prepared to sit with the civilians and accept new TORs? Are the civilians prepared to go beyond issuing inane statements and assert themselves?

 

[Xeric]

AM's arguments revolve around unnecessary comparisons of the military to its civilian counterpart for the sake of deflecting from the topic at hand. My post was in regards to his oft comparison whereby he used the corruption amongst the civilian service as a means to justify what has occurred in Pakistan's military outfit. He wasn't comparing the efficiency and the turnover but rather citing the example of mass losses in civilian enterprises which can be attributed to mass corruption,

As i have always said that no one should be above the law and no one is allowed to justify his misdeeds by citing others. i have also said that the military do has it share of buggers and there's no denying the fact. Having said this one should not forget that the ratio of corruption as compared the civilians is much lower.

the military on the other hand is not accountable to anyone and is able to work more efficiently, turning a good number for their own pockets.

Now that's strange.

The military itself and the companies it run are all accountable just any other public/private enterprise is. Just because a few top notches (who doesnt in this world) manages to embezzle a few buck doesnt necessary means that there's no accountability in these establishments. How do you think they pay the taxes and they never go in loss as compared to their counterparts in the civilian world? i think i would to and extent saying that there's more accountability in these organizations as compared to the civilians as the Chairman Pak Steel and Dir PIA are always appointed by their beloved politicians and these guys by happening to be their yes-men, no one asks them questions when they eat up the company, on the other hand the military run businesses are answerable to the complete PA Dte, the COAS and its employees. Well i include the employees here as our employees have yet to go hud haram as their counterparts in Pak Steel, PIA and Pak Rail has gone!

Lt. Gen Fazle Haq, his use of private enterprises and his official position allowed him to conduct large scale illegal operations in Pakistan, most of which are not known to the general public, he was worth a lot of money too.

Gen. Akhtar Abdur Rahman was very efficient in using pvt enterprises in raising a little money for himself, his children are worth a lot of money today, "two billion dollars, my foot" was his reply to an allegation by Ijaz, his fathers colleagues son.

Gen. Gul, he was able to muscle out all other competitors so that his own business could flourish, his connections were very deep and run that deep to this day.

Gen Baig & Gen. Durrani were accused by their own political product Shareef of being involved in a specific illegal trade for raising funds.

Colonel Billa too was a useful man for a number of reasons, he was involved in a number of scandals involving some big names.

Even Gen. Ayub Khan, a man I greatly admired had his share of pie during his rule.

Gen Zia made a lot of money too, so much so that his son can buy votes en-mass, they have a number of homes around the world too.

^^ i wonder how did you manage to miss Musharraf.

Anywaz, the examples you have quoted cites only a few from the top whereas my concerns have been regarding the peons, clerks, door keepers etc in the civilian domain. Also, let's be realistic, is there any Chairman or a Dir that the Pak Steel and PIA have had that have not embezzled millions, to date? Now dont get me wrong, i am in no way justifying the misdoing of the above mentioned Officers, but then one need to understand that the men that run these organizations and those who form part of these are no angles. You know what, you guys try becoming more Muslaman than the Maulvis when it comes to the military and the Army in particular, but what you forget is that men from the same very Nation that has gone corrupt and inept at the same time over a period of 60 years are the ones which constitute these organizations. The question now is, why do the same men eat and shyt at the same time when they become DCOs/EDOs, Politicians and CEOs/Chairmen, but when the same men wear the uniform, the numbers and quantity lessens? Now one can attribute many reasons to this difference, let's say uniforms dont have as much public dealing as the civilians have, or may be the discipline in the forces bar them from doing anything stupid or may be the system (of accountability) that we have in place dont allow them to go out of their pants, but then that's a separate debate for a separate thread, for now we need to understand that angles would not come down from heavens and run these organizations rather it would be you or me who would form part of the same. Have you ever wondered that just 20 years back we did have corrupt individuals but back then no one would be daring enough to spend the ill-earned money in the public sphere as he would fear of getting labeled as corrupt, today being corrupt is a fashion. So let's be realistic and concentrate on the more important issue of the difference of thresholds between a military-man going corrupt and a civilian who (most of them) dandi mars everytime he gets a chance, even if we agree on comparing anything. BTW, let's see if you can come up with names of those in civies and those who headed your public enterprises who do not fit in the above mentioned category. As we say, exceptions are always there, but this exception would fit on a very few officer (a few of them whom you hve already mentioned) but i am sure the opposite exception would gather more civies.

So let's be realistic or else you would end up quoting some more names and would stop doing it and i would keep on quoting my names as my list goes on like for ever.

I have given enough examples to discuss for now, there are many more and when I refer to corruption, I am not being specific about enterprises but rather the massive corruption that occurs wherever it can.

One, you have managed to list down the faujis, let's see if you can do the same in case of the civilians. i am sure you might face difficulties in doing so as the sheer numbers alone might make it difficult to remember/recall all their names.

Two, you need to tone down the 'massive', or else we will continue to argue.


---------------


BTW, though not (totally) unrelated to the topic but then i would like share something here.

The US and GoP agrees that a total of 13.5 Billion USD have been paid to Pakistan (for the tri services) under head of CSF. $ 10.8 B was earmarked for the Army alone. Your papers (though in consultation with the Army) says that $ 6.98 B has been paid to the Army, but infact only $ 1.8 B has been received by the Army in TOTAL. Now where are the remaining $ 5.18 B? The answer may not sound very pleasing to many here. The remaining $ 5.18 B has gone to support the National Budget. Yes, it you guys who have eaten it. i know now that Musers and Sparklers would feel uneasy with this by then that's the fact. You wont find these figures in the media, why? Well dont we know the media sells on conspiracies.

Also, back in 2005 when the earthquake unleashed misery and pain in our North, it was the Army that donated an handsome amount out of its Budget that went on to support the effectees. You wont also find this news in the media, why because when the funds were donated there werent any left for the military to conduct their Collective Training and we never wanted to send a signal to our friendly neighbors that the almost all of the Two New entries of the military is composed of untrained soldiers.

Also, when the COAS says that it would construct so and so numbers of schools, or deliver free books, or install free water points in the remote areas of Balochistan, or establish free medical camps for flood effectees or donate X amount to them or school such numbers of students free of cost or subsidize schooling expenses etc, we have our indian friends telling us; 'Well, a very guud news, but wouldnt it had been better if the same has been done/announced by the PM/President?'

So, if i remember correctly, a military of any country is a non-profit organization.


P.S. wrote an elaborate reply, but it was screwed say thanks to the hickups that the PDF faces lately. Just jotted down a quick response again, so please bear with it.

 

[Mani2020]

Yeah towards a new improved fauj who can't even detect US choppers and changing their excuses with every passing day,i wonder how much more improvement is needed

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Yaar Mani... they knew about the operation... people at the top and the government was told about it... there is no way on earth that they did nt know... this is all drama about stealth choppers etc...

it is nt that our Fauj is dumb... its the politics of the country and a few traitors in it that is dumbing them down...

 

[Xeric]

Not said to be, he was!

In fact, there is a BBC recording made with him sitting in the lawn of the Governor House in Peshawar actually admitting that he was involved in drug smuggling, and tried to justify it with twisted logic.

Gen Fazle Haq if I recall correctly was said to be into Heroin smuggling even!!!

Gen Ayub I think was the start of all this Capitalist greed inside Pak Army...

If I may add a personal touch to this... a cousin of mine was denied the sword of honour in Risalpur because his relative was the COAS at that time and my uncle and the COAS did not get well along with each other... my cousin deserved the sword without a shred of a doubt... Talk about Nepotism and Grudges...

i think i should now start quoting some names in civies, right?

So now, where should we start?

Should we start from the top (the Zaradara and Gillanis who own almost everything and pay Rs 5K in taxes)? Or should we start from the Uppers (the Senaters and Ministers whose routine expenses exceed what a common man here might earn during his lifetime)? Or may be we should start from the Politician lot (who ‘Parliamentarians own 90% of sugar mills’ – The Express Tribune , Politicians own 26 out of 79 sugar mills Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan , Politicians, relatives own 50pc of country’s sugar factories | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online), no, i think we should start from bureaucrats who cost 10 lac monthly to the national exchequer and enjoy perks like: It pays to be a bureaucrat in Pakistan – The Express Tribune , or may be not, i think should start from the middle and lower middle-men like DO (R)***, EDO (Health) *****, DO (Planning) ******, DPO**** (the *** being the city names) etc etc who spend NOTHING from their monthly pays as they dont need to as there are people who would feel honored to tackle their routine monthly expenses and the Police Affsars who would enjoy their lunch free of cost from almost every famous hotel/restruant of the district they look after, or shall we start from Mr Imtiaz Shah once an office clerk of DC ***wala who would collect the surplus stationary (i still wonder how could stationery items can go surplus in a place where you are in public service) each month and sell it in the open market and then would share the 'profit' all along the hierarchy or should we start from Mr Rahim Dad once the chaprasi of DO (R) ****pur who would sleep with his kids in DO's office at night while enjoying the free air conditioning, no? i think we should start from the CEO (who surprisingly also happened to be a Senater) of a very renowned LPG (cylinder) supplier (a private company) who would ensure by paying guys who in turn would make sure that his company is shown in loss in annual reports so that his company can evade taxes, also the last time i had a sitting with them i was told that it has been like 14 years since and EXTERNAL AUDIT has been carried out by the company (say thanks to the friends in the Senate), since then only Internal Audits would be done to make sure that no one out of the employees eat anything, still i know his officers who would travel to Isb for 'official' business, and despite being provided residence in a 5 star hotel, a company car and food expenses free of cost (as the company would ensure the provision of all these before hand) would still present a bill amounting to lacs to the company, and not surprisingly the bill would also get cleared

So, from where exactly you want me to start, now?

As i always say, 'is hamam mai hum saray he nangay hain'



Humnay shayed underwear pehna hoa meray khayal mai.

 

[VCheng]

......


As i always say, 'is hamam mai hum saray he nangay hain'

......

I agree with you on the quote above.

The only problem is that iss hamam mein pani khatam ho raha he, phir sab ke sab nangey hi bahar aaingey aur dunya tamasha dekhe gi.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Sir Xeric... I think you are being a little repetitive here... no one is saying that the civilians who have been in power are any better... if anything they are worse in corruption... what I would say to you is that in our country the Army has a special place not just in defence but also in its political muscle (that it flexes all the time)... so instead of getting naked in this blame game... Khuda Kay Liyaye please look at some strategies that should sort out this madness... Like VCheng said you are running out of water... fast

btw... there are people who are not naked... you ll find them all around you... so we need a change of system as well as faces running our affairs... within both civll and military institutions...

For that I have been inviting everyone to look at the Caliphate model... others want the whole army turned into a swat team... etc... so lets stop the blame game and grab some clothes while we still can...

Masalam

 

[Mani2020]

Yaar Mani... they knew about the operation... people at the top and the government was told about it... there is no way on earth that they did nt know... this is all drama about stealth choppers etc...

it is nt that our Fauj is dumb... its the politics of the country and a few traitors in it that is dumbing them down...

Don't just blame civilian government everytime ,military has also played her part in that ,ok suppose even if government asked military to let americans do this still military wouldn't have allowed that coz it was a case of national sovereignty and you know how strong army is in Pakistan,there is no way that civilian government would have pushed them to wall