To all Chinese members, what is your favorite Chinese Dynasty?

[Water Car Engineer]

Liao Dynasty

Who was then overthrown by the Jurchens a former vessel of their's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Dynasty_(1115-1234)

But all eventually assimilated into the Chinese population.

I know Jin , I was expecting some small Scythian or Tocharian kingdom in the North west or something. ;-)

 

[no_name]

Yep but the sad thing is I once was perfectly literate and lost the language through atrophy (damn English). The hope is I can pick it up quickly since I still speak the language.

I can still speak and read characters, but it's funny how I can't remember to write but simple characters.
I guess it's good thing my parents bought all the books with them when we came here.

 

[Joe Shearer]

China through out the ages has maintained very thorough dynastic historical record.

The formal historical record 正史, comprised of collected compositions by court historians of various dynasties. There are 25 different dynasties/eras covered. The shortest of these was 陳書, with about two houndred thousand characters. The longest was Qing dynasty record, with five million characters.

There are also unofficial records that were compiled by private authors, and these were referred to as 野史

The only part where these historical records were somewhat lacking is the period between Jin dynasty and northern/southern dynasties, when non-chinese were in power in some of the northern china states.

How utterly reprehensible that these are not available for study!! Whatever is available in Indian history has been researched VERY thoroughly, evaluated, critiqued and presented - multiple times in multiple books. Is there no academic effort going on somewhere, anywhere, to do something similar to Chinese texts and primary sources? I have already mentioned Professor Roy.

 

[no_name]

^^^ I think they were studied pretty well in china, can't say about outside.
Maybe people are just not influenced as much by them, as opposed to say europeans by the greek and roman history.

Some historical eras were pretty well familiarised by the chinese public who have received public education.

eras such as the three kingdon, chu-han contention, history of Qin shi huang, important aspects of each of the major dynasties, spring and autumn and warring states period were covered in reasonable detail in history class

And periods such as the three kingdom has been romantised and made into plays/ novels written about them.

 

[no_name]

I know Jin , I was expecting some small Scythian or Tocharian kingdom in the North west or something. ;-)

Lol, there were no Scythian overlords. And actually those states were not in the west but very much in china proper.

Chinese History - Sixteen States ????? (www.chinaknowledge.de)


============================
The Sixteen Kingdoms of the Five Barbarian Peoples (Wuhu shiliuguo 五胡十六國: Di 氐, Jie 羯, Qiang 羌, Xianbei 鮮卑, Xiongnu 匈&#22900:

Cheng-Han 成漢 (304-347)
Former Zhao 前趙 (304-329), Later Zhao 後趙 (319-350)
Former Yan 前燕 (337-370), Later Yan 後燕 (384-409), Northern Yan 北燕 (409-436), Southern Yan 南燕 (398-410)
Former Liang 前涼 (314-376), Later Liang 後涼 (386-403), Northern Liang 北涼 (398-439), Southern Liang 南涼 (397-414), Western Liang 西涼 (400-421)
Former Qin 前秦 (351-395), Later Qin 後秦 (384-417), Western Qin 西秦 (385-431)
Xia 夏 (407-432)

To the particular states, use the index of the Sixteen States.
Southern and Northern Dynasties overview

The weak central government of Eastern Han 東漢, the Cao-Wei 曹魏 and the Jin Dynasty 晉 allowed many Non-Chinese tribes to intrude on Chinese territory in the northwest. With the sixteen year long crisis of the Jin court during the Rebellions of the Eight Princes, military leaders of Chinese settlers and Non-Chinese tribes saw their chance to become independent from the Jin Dynasty.
The Sixteen Kingdoms of the Five Barbarian Peoples (Di 氐, Jie 羯, Qiang 羌, Xianbei 鮮卑, Xiongnu 匈&#22900 are not enlisted among the acknowledged dynasties. Although their rulers - most of them being of Non-Chinese origin - adopted Chinese customs and the Chinese administration system to govern their realms, they are not seen as righteous rulers of China. In fact, most of the short-lived empires were not able to develop a real working government. Their politics were all short-time oriented and in many cases determined by a simple surviving strategy. The hundred and thirty years of diverse foreign empires on Chinese soil were a period of suffering for the peasant population. The tenant farmers had not only to endure the permanent war campaigns, together with natural desasters and calamities, but also had to deliver tax and corvée labour for their landowners and the alien rulers. A typical measure to support the economical and fiscal needs of the government was to resettle peasants around the capital. This short-eyed policy of the "barbarian" rulers lead to the economical and cultural backwardness of China's north during the 4th and 5th centuries. At the same time, the ethnic constituents of the northern Chinese population changed - with time going by the former "barbarians" gradually mixed with the Chinese population.
The period of the Sixteen Kingdoms (in fact, there were even a few more) can be divided into three stages: From 300 to 350, the Former Liang 前涼, the two Zhao 前後趙 and the Cheng-Han 成漢 empires rule the north and Sichuan. The dominating force from 350 to 380 is the Former Qin 前秦 empire. From 380 on the north is splintered up into many short-lived and ever-changing empires that are finally destroyed by the power of the Tuoba empire of Northern Wei 北魏 around 430.

======================================


The five tribes of xiongnu were actually other people subjugated and bought to china by the xiongnu.
Of those, the Jie 羯 tribe is reported to have caucasian features with some members having blue eyes and fair hair. They later broke away from xiongnu control and established the two zhao kingdom.

Relationships between the hus and between hu and han was tense, with often unjust rule/ ethnic clash/massacres occuring frequently. The Jie tribe was especially tyrannical in their rule which eventually sparked an uprising by a chinese general by the name of Ran Min 冉闵, who ordered a general cull of non-chinese in china north.

It is estimated around 200,000 jie people were killed by uprisings and the rest escaped or were forced to hide their identities. The jie people thereafter disappeared from chinese history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wei-Jie_war


It was a miserable part of history both for chinese and non-chinese, and the short rules set up by non-chinese people were deemed un-legitimate (since they did not contribute anything meaningful and were purely political). It is also a chaotic time and history may not have been recorded dutifully. This is one of the reason why there is little history discussing about this period.

I also notices that this period is around the same time that the west roman empire was under assault by the norman and huns barbarians. This could just mean the retreat of civilized states and a power vacuum across central asia/eastern europe.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Lol, there were no Scythian overlords. And actually those states were not in the west but very much in china proper.

I know about the northern early Manchus and Mongol tribes. But did any like early caucasians form a kingdom near China like around Xinjiang area?

 

[scuthan]

Overall, I find your comments very helpful and illustrative, and am happy to get this additional information, to supplement what I already knew.

Fascinating stuff; thanks for the inputs.

"Yuezhi" is actually a romanization of old chinese word (月&#27663 in modern Mandarin. it literally means "moon sect" in chinese. Most chinese people got familiarized with this name in "zhangqian's envoy to the west", a classic episode of Han history. (Zhang Qian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) as i said before, most history records on tocharians are from chinese literature.

I noticed there are many mistakes in wikipedia including the entry "tocharians", even a layman of history like me can spot a few mistakes in a single entry. however, from my personal experience, the quality and accuracy of most chinese history related entries on English wikipedia are much better than most popular history books (e.g.Leften Stavrianos's A global history) and some academic websites of western univs i read on internet. but still wikipedia can not be compared with serious history book like cambridge china history

 

[Joe Shearer]

Another interesting post; this is getting good!

"Yuezhi" is actually a romanization of old chinese word (月&#27663 in modern Mandarin. it literally means "moon sect" in chinese.
Actually, this much is pretty well-known to Indian historians and historians of India. The best source for this 40 years ago, when I first read about the events we are discussing, was the Comprehensive History of India, edited by the infallible and very, very sound K. A. Nilakanta Shastri, better known for his authoritative History of South India. Which is why I have been calling them the 'Moon Sect' (=Yueh Chi = Kushan).

Most chinese people got familiarized with this name in "zhangqian's envoy to the west", a classic episode of Han history. (Zhang Qian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) as i said before, most history records on tocharians are from chinese literature.

Some few days ago, I replied with the name of an excellent book in response to the query from a very readable poster, who has not been on line for some time now. This is

CHINESE SOURCES OF SOUTH ASIAN HISTORY IN TRANSLATION
DATA FOR STUDY OF INDIA-CHINA RELATIONS THROUGH AGES​

by Haraprasad Ray.

I cannot sufficiently praise this book. To give you an overview, this is his contents page (without the Foreword, Preface, Reading Guide, Chinese Chronology, Table of Transliteration, Abbreviations and Introduction):

• SHIJI (Records of the Historian)

1. The Memoir on the Xiongnu
2. The Swift General Wei Qing and the Cavalry General Huo Qubing
3. The Memoir on the Southwestern Tribes
4. The Biography of Sima Xiangru
5. (a) The Memoir on Dayuan; (b) (Commentary) "Record of (Strange Objects from) the Southern Region (Nanzhou (Yiwu) Zhi)"
   • HANSHU
6. The Basic Annals of Emperor Wu
7. The Basic Annals of Ping Di
8. Treatise on Geography
9. The Biographies of Wei Qing and Huo Qubing
10. The Biographies of Zhang Qian and Li Guangli
11. The Biographies of Zhao Chongguo and Xin Qingji
12. The Biographies of Fu Changshang and Gan Chenduan
13. The Memoir on the Xiongnu
14. The Memoir on the Southwestern Yi (tribes, nomads), the two Yue states (Southern and Eastern) and Chaoxian (Korea)
15. The Memoir on the Western Regions I
16. The Memoir on the Western Regions II
17. The Biography of Wang Mang I
18. The Biography of Wang Mang II

and so on through Sections III to XIII.

Since getting these three volumes, I have tended to depend on them. I recommend them (ISBN 81 7236 151 3)very warmly.


I noticed there are many mistakes in wikipedia including the entry "tocharians", even a layman of history like me can spot a few mistakes in a single entry. however, from my personal experience, the quality and accuracy of most chinese history related entries on English wikipedia are much better than most popular history books (e.g.Leften Stavrianos's A global history) and some academic websites of western univs i read on internet. but still wikipedia can not be compared with serious history book like cambridge china history

Regrettably, in my younger days, I never had occasion to get to the Cambridge History of China; having ploughed through most of the Cambridge History of Greece, the Cambridge History of India, the New Cambridge History of India and the Cambridge History of Iran, I can imagine that this was a great gap in my reading. But China was not even in our curriculum; the Persian War and the Peloponnesian War were!

 

[blueyonder]

Hello/你好,

Here are some resources of interest:
UNESCO's 6 Volume History of Civilizations of Central Asia, prehistry to modern times (free pdfs)

Sino-Platonic Papers (free, in English and some in Chinese)
"Sino-Platonic Papers is an occasional series edited by Victor H. Mair of the University of Pennsylvania's Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations."
Of interest : "A Study of the History of the Relationship Between the Western and Eastern Han, Wei, Jin, Northern and Southern Dynasties and the Western Regions" (in English)
"The Earliest Tocharians in China" (in English)

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hello/你好,

Here are some resources of interest:
UNESCO's 6 Volume History of Civilizations of Central Asia, prehistry to modern times (free pdfs)

Sino-Platonic Papers (free, in English and some in Chinese)
"Sino-Platonic Papers is an occasional series edited by Victor H. Mair of the University of Pennsylvania's Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations."
Of interest : "A Study of the History of the Relationship Between the Western and Eastern Han, Wei, Jin, Northern and Southern Dynasties and the Western Regions" (in English)
"The Earliest Tocharians in China" (in English)

Immensely thankful for this excellent input! It leaves me speechless; the UNESCO resource in particular promises to be of the greatest interest. Now, how to find a sucker who'll let me abuse his printer? Also, the last two listed, including the paper on the Tocharians.

Most obliged.

 

[no_name]

Now, how to find a sucker who'll let me abuse his printer?

lol. Are you a history major or doing some sort of project?

 

[Joe Shearer]

lol. Are you a history major or doing some sort of project?

I was an history major from 68 to 71 and then for a post-grad period. Now I am busily reviewing what has happened over the last 40 years in areas of my interest. This includes histories of different regions and continents, as well as specialised military history, and increasingly, proto-history, with an emphasis on the connection between genetics and history.

 

[April.lyrics]

most powerful millitary dynasty should be Han and Tang.Han defeated Huns and drove them to europe.Tang's Military system led that they had strong general (节度使制&#24230 and their soldier doesnt lack training.but this also caused a problem on Centralization.

Song and Ming also has a large quantity of soldiers,but their fighting skill is bad.However,those two dynasty should be the most richful dynasty.at the beginning of the two dynasty,they do have Professional military forces.but with time goes by,Corruption happened in army and soldier lack of training.as the 屯兵制，those soldier should be farmers if there is no war.

 

[teddy]

Actually I like the sony dynasty most. It said to be the weakest dynasty in entire chinese history, but actually it was most creative in scientist and economic active. You know industry revolution was nearly happened in song dynasty!

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Actually I like the sony dynasty most. It said to be the weakest dynasty in entire chinese history, but actually it was most creative in scientist and economic active. You know industry revolution was nearly happened in song dynasty!

We cannot totally blame Song Dynasty for its weakness, since it was Tang Dynasty who started to lose the control over the Northwest part of China, which was the place to produce more war horses. As for that, Song Dynasty has almost no cavalry, which was a big disadvantage against the nomadic tribes from the North.