TLP now to be treated as a militant organization

[El Sidd]

Fake news

Minister of disinformation faces no accountability from authorities for constantly provoking anarchy in the country.

 

[El Sidd]

Apni khahishat ko government policy k tor par pesh kar rha tha

Its not his wishes. He actively pursues such policy of stoking conspiracies for cheap rhetoric. He was employed by GEO news for his talent before being employed by PTI for the same.

No one has put so much energy in provoking anarchy than this shero.

 

[313ghazi]

As predicted earlier - govt did indeed treat TLP as a militant organisation. They sat down and negotiated with them.

Anyone with street power and guns can do what they want in Pakistan - as long as they let the elite continue in thier lives.

Baloch sardar take up guns - they're rewarded with govt seats. TTP kill 80,000 of our people - thier political wing PTM was given seats in govt unchallenged.

MQM was gifted Karachi, PPP has been gifted Sindh. Today TLP are working hard to get to the gunda status required to be gifted seats in power.

 

[Tomcats]

A Sobering read

https://twitter.com/x/status/1454807953849081856

 

[R Wing]

Its the masses that form the system. Bottom to the top, the rulers, the government servants, uniformed or non-uniformed, peons or directors -all come from with in the population. You can blame the system all your life but the system is made by everyone of us.

The web of lies, the deceit and the delusions you mention are with in each and everyone of us, so why close our eyes and blame the system. Oh yes, we cannot blame ourselves, so we need to blame something, lets blame the system. If you dont want to give bribe, no one can snatch it from you. If you dont want to pay interest, no one can force the facility down your throat, if you dont want to be corrupt then no one can ensnare you to be - unless of course you want to blame somebody else but not you. Blame the Cops, blame army, blame politicians, blame Government - are these all aliens from outer space or from with in Pakistan ? They are from amongst you. Oh yes, you will blame the system again, its the system which made us Pakistanis like this, had we got a good system, we would all be angels by now. You think that system is more powerful than the people. People are just robots right, they have no brains, they are simpletons who just do what they are told to do. There is a certain simpleton out there and coz of that one simpleton there are millions of protestors destroying Pakistan and its image. The system must have made them like this right ? That simpleton is using religion to control them and causing destruction of Pakistan. But we should blame the system. Ahhh the corrupt, evil system !

Mentee, seriously, enough of your double standards. Constantly complaining, blaming and taunting at everyone, why ? Because the religious fanatics out there are serving the divine order ? Blame yourself and blame Pakistanis like yourself who will take short cuts, who will use the system for their own good when required. Act all moral and up right when chance is not there and as soon as the chance arrives, grab hold of it and use it as you like. Those who don't get the chance, they complain, and they are the first ones to utilize the facility as soon as they get it.

Bringing in God and Koran again and again. God isn't blind, he knows our hearts. How many Pakistanis show honesty when no one is watching. You talk of God as if you know God best. You can talk of his wrath. Are you that negative about God ? and when you talk of following God then you start mentioning rewards, one doesn't have to be so selfish. Who isn't following God ? You and fellow Pakistanis. Maybe you want the system to follow God ? ok Good. People shouldn't follow but the system should follow God and everything will be alright. Yeah sure Mentee. The system runs by itself. People (Pakistanis) don't run it. That seems to be your theory.

Sometimes i think why do I even bother replying all the utterance of negativity that is crying out loud in your posts. As soon as Police opened fire, all you had to say was kids being targeted, alright understood, not a pretty picture, in fact a tragedy if it happened, but the cops who died had children too Mentee. Your negativity will not let you look at both sides of the picture. You seem to damn sad that Police got into action. In case of Police also, you look at the negative side also. If we just talk about the Police, how many times have you been to the Police station or interacted with Police on the road ? Have you been disappointed always by the police ? Im sure you must have stories to tell of the atrocities that Police committed on you or close ones or incidents happened in front of your eyes. I, too, interact a lot with Police, sometimes with SHO's, other times with CSP officers, as well as wardens and motorway Police and even Dolphin force. Lodging FIRs, conducting legal notices, following up cases - yes one faces problems, all sort of problems but learn from the damn problem, find a solution and move on to be prepared next time. I am not a privileged VIP person in Pakistan, Im a bloody civilian just like you. An ordinary citizen just like you.

I sincerely hope, I get busy again so I stop reading and replying all the negativity in your posts.

I think what you both are saying isn't mutually exclusive. It's not a zero sum game.

A system that reflects the masses and is therefore sorely lacking in effectiveness still needs change. The problem in Pakistan is that power monopolies don't allow the change (more than the masses); the 'electables' cycle can never be broken except by a visionary mil dictator, the sort we haven't had since Ayub Khan. The civil service and even ISI civilian offr (MOD AD) exams are a cruel joke --- they barely test aptitude. This isn't rocket science to fix. Which 'masses' are stopping such fundamental structural change?

To your larger point, many things are definitely working within this rotten system --- after all, Pakistan is a functioning state, even though the quality and level of that function may be debated.

But unless we stay constantly aware of how bad our current system (in many ways --- ills of our specific mode of representative democracy, disproportionate COAS power concentrated in a single seat, poor capacity and people in almost all institutions, etc.), we will start thinking that we're doing a pretty good job with the bad hand we've been dealt. This thinking can never, ever create visionary leaders (within and without institutions) who can push, at the risk of their careers and benefits, hugely transformative reform that challenges the status quo. Too often, our major impediment of success is that we pat ourselves on the back for what we're achieving now --- without taking a few steps back and realizing that that is a terrible yardstick to be satisfied with. Do you know what I mean?

There are two approaches here:
1.) Do the best with this terrible system
2.) Improve the damn system

The problem with improving the system is that its designed to only be fixable by a very few posts --- such as the chief executives sitting in the PMO and GHQ. And when they don't do it, one starts to lose hope. I'm not talking about incremental, slow reform --- no, that has never fixed any developing country, and is therefore nothing to be celebrated.

My 2c.

 

[jupiter2007]

As predicted earlier - govt did indeed treat TLP as a militant organisation. They sat down and negotiated with them.

Anyone with street power and guns can do what they want in Pakistan - as long as they let the elite continue in thier lives.

Baloch sardar take up guns - they're rewarded with govt seats. TTP kill 80,000 of our people - thier political wing PTM was given seats in govt unchallenged.

MQM was gifted Karachi, PPP has been gifted Sindh. Today TLP are working hard to get to the gunda status required to be gifted seats in power.

Banana Republic zindabad. Why other Muslims countries don’t have same issues? Pakistan is in serious need of Political and religious reforms.

I have given list of suggestions and if governments follow them or even consider them, there is chance to reduce extremism and reduce terrorist funding. Government organization to bring Islamic reforms to stop unIslamic activities in the name of religion.

I personally think that Pakistani government must establish a National Madrassa Board (NMB) Under the board of Education. National Madrassa board should work with The Institute of Islamic Values and Arabic-language, a Islamic research Instituted founded and control by Pakistani government, to create, authorize and implement standard Madrassa Curriculum (SMC) which should include Quranic education, Arabic language, Social studies (Pakistan History), Mathematics, and Computer science courses. South African Islamic institutes have built a similar curriculum for their Seminaries.

The Institute of Islamic Values and Arabic-language need to be established to create a Islamic utopia and build the society based on Moderate Islamic principles. This government based institute's primary responsibility will be to education the masses about Islam which was sent by Allah (swt) and preached by Nabi Kareem (Saw). This institute will use all different mediums (TV channels, Social Media, Internet, live Lectures) to educate people about real Islam. The ultimate goal of this institute will be to control and stop the un-Islamic practices that have become the part of our religion due to lack of real knowledge about Islam. If it's done correctly, we should see significant decrease in extremism, in shirk and bidaat practices, for example, celebrating Urs, making sajda to the qabar/graves, making dua to the dead, fake peer/muridi culture. We should also see religious tolerance which means No violence against religious minorities, Shia, Hindus, Sikh, etc. This should pressure government to reform of the controversial blasphemy laws.
•Laws should be created to stop the Islamic extremism.

•Anyone inciting violence against other sects in their Speeches and Khutbas should be prosecuted.

•First offensive, 10 lashes and 3 months in Jail.

•Second offence, 25 lashes and 6 months in Jail.

•Third offence, 50 lashes and 2 years in Jail.

•Fourth offence, 100 lashes and 10 years in jail.

•Any group or individual can’t call other sect “Kafir.”

•If they call other kafir, they will have to proof that in an international Islamic court that individual or group is “Kafir”.

Taking responsibility of managing all shrines in the country to prevent grave worshiping.

PEMRA should take action against any TV promoting Shirk and biddats practices.

 

[R Wing]

As predicted earlier - govt did indeed treat TLP as a militant organisation. They sat down and negotiated with them.

Anyone with street power and guns can do what they want in Pakistan - as long as they let the elite continue in thier lives.

Baloch sardar take up guns - they're rewarded with govt seats. TTP kill 80,000 of our people - thier political wing PTM was given seats in govt unchallenged.

MQM was gifted Karachi, PPP has been gifted Sindh. Today TLP are working hard to get to the gunda status required to be gifted seats in power.

This is what happens when entire institutions cultivate a yessir culture that only rewards compliance. And, seeing the gradual decline in the quality of people in mil/civ service and the assemblies, the brain drain becomes a vicious circle. Where you ideally need to be at is where your top grads, from local or foreign universities, sometimes choose govt/mil service over a high paying Goldman Sachs job on Wall St. Most will still choose Goldman Sachs and it's $100,000+++/yr offers to fresh graduates, but not all. When this starts happening regularly, after a generation or two, the intellect and vision of these institutions will start to improve. You have to be able to imagine a better future to try and create it.

Currently, such people are not only not valued in our institutions but are often actively shunned. A friend of mine has a PhD from Princeton (the best university in the US for 20 years in a row in the US News survey), JD from Yale (the best law school in the world) and bachelors from Oxford --- he gave up his partner-track law career at a top New York law firm to come back and serve. He has become extremely frustrated over the past 5 years because rather than being excited at the prospect of someone like him on their team, most people feel he will outshine them, and start to exclude him!

The problem in Pakistan is that the NDU President will tell you that his faculty is as good as Harvard's (bullshit) and they just don't have the international brand name and similarly the Foreign Services Academy will be monopolized by some old 'baba' who is a leech on the system. When the system doesn't invite and cultivate talent and operate as a ruthless meritocracy, people start living in Lalaland.

 

[R Wing]

Deobandi were too busy with Return Fatwabazi .... have you read Al-Muhannad ala al-Mufannad ?

Deobandi have a real violent streak and they've had it a lot longer than Brelvis.

Thank you.

The cause of the most destruction in Pak are self-righteous sects that emphasize outward manifestations of piety VS introspection and the 'greater' (inner) jihad. We are so obsessed about what society and others are doing that while we are happily indulging in sin in our private and business dealings. Pathetic.

At the very least, the State should aggressively promote the idea that there are MANY interpretations of Islam and some are DIAMTERICALLY opposite in their teachings on some practices. So, "Islam" as a uniform and universally accepted form of what's right and wrong or encouraged and discouraged doesn't exist --- various fiqhs/schools/interpretations do, and this causes a huge amount of friction.

Therefore, I think a State that actually has visionary leadership and a huge Muslim population to govern, needs to publicly or covertly adopt one of the more moderate interpretations --- emphasize the pursuit of knowledge in the sciences, women in the workplace, the internal aspects of faith, duties as citizens, etc. --- and aggressively promote it through all media while regulating ALL other forms. NO madrassa except the single State-approved curriculum, NO khutbaz except State-sanctioned ones, etc. I believe Egypt and Turkey follow something like this.

There is no perfection in government --- this should be a start.

But we've never had any such leaders. Even our last military dictator who had vast power and public support initially, could not make the sweeping structural changes we required --- how the F can a democracy, hanging by a thread, do it?! This is our real tragedy. We have small-minded people in positions of power, and the system is designed to protect them and exclude real visionaries who threaten the status quo. Sad.

 

[jupiter2007]

Thank you.

The cause of the most destruction in Pak are self-righteous sects that emphasize outward manifestations of piety VS introspection and the 'greater' (inner) jihad. We are so obsessed about what society and others are doing that while we are happily indulging in sin in our private and business dealings. Pathetic.

At the very least, the State should aggressively promote the idea that there are MANY interpretations of Islam and some are DIAMTERICALLY opposite in their teachings on some practices. So, "Islam" as a uniform and universally accepted form of what's right and wrong or encouraged and discouraged doesn't exist --- various fiqhs/schools/interpretations do, and this causes a huge amount of friction.

Therefore, I think a State that actually has visionary leadership and a huge Muslim population to govern, needs to publicly or covertly adopt one of the more moderate interpretations --- emphasize the pursuit of knowledge in the sciences, women in the workplace, the internal aspects of faith, duties as citizens, etc. --- and aggressively promote it through all media while regulating ALL other forms. NO madrassa except the single State-approved curriculum, NO khutbaz except State-sanctioned ones, etc. I believe Egypt and Turkey follow something like this.

There is no perfection in government --- this should be a start.

But we've never had any such leaders. Even our last military dictator who had vast power and public support initially, could not make the sweeping structural changes we required --- how the F can a democracy, hanging by a thread, do it?! This is our real tragedy. We have small-minded people in positions of power, and the system is designed to protect them and exclude real visionaries who threaten the status quo. Sad.

I like your ideas about State sanctioned Khutbah in every Masjid but single state approved madrassa curriculum might not work in Pakistan because AhleHadith use different books. It might work for Deobandi and Razakhani. Razakhani use the books written by Ashraf Ali Tanvi in their Madrasa but also call him Kafir.

 

[R Wing]

I like your ideas about State sanctioned Khutbah in every Masjid but single state approved madrassa curriculum might not work in Pakistan because AhleHadith use different books. It might work for Deobandi and Razakhani. Razakhani use the books written by Ashraf Ali Tanvi in their Madrasa but also call him Kafir.

It HAS to work is what I mean. The countries that have progressed forcibly regulated this stuff, because you can't have so many competing claims to legitimacy running around and willing to kill each other if it comes to it. The government has to, gently or forcibly, wean people off the current free for all.

Obviously, it can't do it forcibly in the current state of affairs, but it must soon.

 

[jupiter2007]

It HAS to work is what I mean. The countries that have progressed forcibly regulated this stuff, because you can't have so many competing claims to legitimacy running around and willing to kill each other if it comes to it. The government has to, gently or forcibly, wean people off the current free for all.

Obviously, it can't do it forcibly in the current state of affairs, but it must soon.

Anyone calling other kafir must proof in the international Islamic Court or go to jail for 5 years. This goes for both Deobandi and Razakhani sects or any other sect.

 

[Verve]

Thank you.

The cause of the most destruction in Pak are self-righteous sects that emphasize outward manifestations of piety VS introspection and the 'greater' (inner) jihad. We are so obsessed about what society and others are doing that while we are happily indulging in sin in our private and business dealings. Pathetic.

At the very least, the State should aggressively promote the idea that there are MANY interpretations of Islam and some are DIAMTERICALLY opposite in their teachings on some practices. So, "Islam" as a uniform and universally accepted form of what's right and wrong or encouraged and discouraged doesn't exist --- various fiqhs/schools/interpretations do, and this causes a huge amount of friction.

Therefore, I think a State that actually has visionary leadership and a huge Muslim population to govern, needs to publicly or covertly adopt one of the more moderate interpretations --- emphasize the pursuit of knowledge in the sciences, women in the workplace, the internal aspects of faith, duties as citizens, etc. --- and aggressively promote it through all media while regulating ALL other forms. NO madrassa except the single State-approved curriculum, NO khutbaz except State-sanctioned ones, etc. I believe Egypt and Turkey follow something like this.

There is no perfection in government --- this should be a start.

But we've never had any such leaders. Even our last military dictator who had vast power and public support initially, could not make the sweeping structural changes we required --- how the F can a democracy, hanging by a thread, do it?! This is our real tragedy. We have small-minded people in positions of power, and the system is designed to protect them and exclude real visionaries who threaten the status quo. Sad.

Teaching of Quran with translation during schooling years is an excellent move by this government. It will seriously damage the sects in the long run. People need to study Quran for Muhkamat and those are very clear to understand in any translation.

There is only One Islam. State should never promote any other idea. Totally disagree with you. All sects and fiqhs rejected, as per Quran 6:159.

Anyone calling other kafir must proof in the international Islamic Court or go to jail for 5 years. This goes for both Deobandi and Razakhani sects or any other sect.

International Islamic Court?

Start with banning all sects books containing gustakian and such kafir fatwas. Almost all books written by the top ulemas of these sects would be banned.

 

[R Wing]

Teaching of Quran with translation during schooling years is an excellent move by this government. It will seriously damage the sects in the long run. People need to study Quran for Muhkamat and those are very clear to understand in any translation.

There is only One Islam. State should never promote any other idea. Totally disagree with you. All sects and fiqhs rejected, as per Quran 6:159.

Of course there is only one (actual) Islam --- one truth. But the way it is practiced means that there are too many 'versions' of it (as understood and practiced by humans). It's like looking at a beautiful distant star --- the star exists as it does in the fabric of reality, but

Quranic translations also vary wildly --- we had an exercise in an Islamic Studies course that compared ten respected translations that had massive differences (i.e. 'hitting' your wife with a tissue vs. physically).

I think you misunderstood my point --- and we are wanting the same thing.

 

[Pak Nationalist]

I mean with WHAT logic you co-relate a Country's economic health with Namoos e Risalat?

And also care to explain how someone who favors it called radicalized...how can you make such statements as "entire generation of Pakistanis"... Every single Pakistani muslim favors Namoos e Risalat... or supports it IF not vocally or proactively than silently in his/her heart...

View attachment 788974

I mean if you read the news article above will tell you that a good majority is in favor of it...



hmmm... this will refresh your memory a bit:

View attachment 788978

This is just one example where the instigators are not related to TLP or similar group...what I meant to say that TLP does not own monopoly on "Violent Protests", in the past there are quite a few instances of Political protests being turned violent...



What they failed to deliver?



State will NOT surrender; State will negotiate with TLP successfully and through required due diligence make sure that all required steps would be taken to initiate a debate in Parliament...



Well ONLY time will tell ... Pakistan will NOT withstand another term from ANY of the previous tried and tested corrupts Politicians ...

1. Keep support in the heart. Not burn own country to the ground for it (against those who do not care for it). Burning is both physical on the streets and setting aflame the economy of Pakistan by choking national arteries and demanding an economically impoverished country to do what filthy rich Arab sheikhdoms could not dare do and in the process pushing own economy into a closed alley (GSP plus's role in Pakistani exports, capping whatever little FDI we get from the West).

2. Political party is not the same as a civil society group.

3. Economic collapse of Pakistan. TTP/deobandi fanatics could not deliver that.

4. A debate in parliament is as good as accepting the demand of terrorists. MNAs would want to outdo each other in ishq e rasool because they have to get votes on the issue and also not share the fate of Salman Taseer by talking sense.

 

[Mentee]

A Sobering read

https://twitter.com/x/status/1454807953849081856

Legend has it that on his death bed an atheist like justice Munir called on his servant and expressed apprehensions about the existence of The Devine, some thing to the following effect .


for all my life I negated such idea . So, what if it actually truned out that A Creator do exist ?


The servant unsure of the probability of receiving a sane reaction still gave a sobering reply


Judge sahab maamla adaalat k rehm-o-karam p chor di g ay

@jamahir @Verve