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Time to Get Out of Afghanistan

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Time to Get Out of Afghanistan


By George F. Will
Tuesday, September 1, 2009

"Yesterday," reads the e-mail from Allen, a Marine in Afghanistan, "I gave blood because a Marine, while out on patrol, stepped on a [mine's] pressure plate and lost both legs." Then "another Marine with a bullet wound to the head was brought in. Both Marines died this morning."

This Story
A Middle Way On Afghanistan?
Is the War in Afghanistan Worth Fighting?
Time to Get Out of AfghanistanThis Story
Time to Get Out of Afghanistan
Is the War in Afghanistan Worth Fighting?
William Kristol: No Will, No Way
"I'm sorry about the drama," writes Allen, an enthusiastic infantryman willing to die "so that each of you may grow old." He says: "I put everything in God's hands." And: "Semper Fi!"

Allen and others of America's finest are also in Washington's hands. This city should keep faith with them by rapidly reversing the trajectory of America's involvement in Afghanistan, where, says the Dutch commander of coalition forces in a southern province, walking through the region is "like walking through the Old Testament."

U.S. strategy -- protecting the population -- is increasingly troop-intensive while Americans are increasingly impatient about "deteriorating" (says Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) conditions. The war already is nearly 50 percent longer than the combined U.S. involvements in two world wars, and NATO assistance is reluctant and often risible.

The U.S. strategy is "clear, hold and build." Clear? Taliban forces can evaporate and then return, confident that U.S. forces will forever be too few to hold gains. Hence nation-building would be impossible even if we knew how, and even if Afghanistan were not the second-worst place to try: The Brookings Institution ranks Somalia as the only nation with a weaker state.


Military historian Max Hastings says Kabul controls only about a third of the country -- "control" is an elastic concept -- and " 'our' Afghans may prove no more viable than were 'our' Vietnamese, the Saigon regime." Just 4,000 Marines are contesting control of Helmand province, which is the size of West Virginia. The New York Times reports a Helmand official saying he has only "police officers who steal and a small group of Afghan soldiers who say they are here for 'vacation.' " Afghanistan's $23 billion gross domestic product is the size of Boise's. Counterinsurgency doctrine teaches, not very helpfully, that development depends on security, and that security depends on development. Three-quarters of Afghanistan's poppy production for opium comes from Helmand. In what should be called Operation Sisyphus, U.S. officials are urging farmers to grow other crops. Endive, perhaps?

Even though violence exploded across Iraq after, and partly because of, three elections, Afghanistan's recent elections were called "crucial." To what? They came, they went, they altered no fundamentals, all of which militate against American "success," whatever that might mean. Creation of an effective central government? Afghanistan has never had one. U.S. Ambassador Karl Eikenberry hopes for a "renewal of trust" of the Afghan people in the government, but the Economist describes President Hamid Karzai's government -- his vice presidential running mate is a drug trafficker -- as so "inept, corrupt and predatory" that people sometimes yearn for restoration of the warlords, "who were less venal and less brutal than Mr. Karzai's lot."

Mullen speaks of combating Afghanistan's "culture of poverty." But that took decades in just a few square miles of the South Bronx. Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the U.S. commander in Afghanistan, thinks jobs programs and local government services might entice many "accidental guerrillas" to leave the Taliban. But before launching New Deal 2.0 in Afghanistan, the Obama administration should ask itself: If U.S. forces are there to prevent reestablishment of al-Qaeda bases -- evidently there are none now -- must there be nation-building invasions of Somalia, Yemen and other sovereignty vacuums?

U.S. forces are being increased by 21,000, to 68,000, bringing the coalition total to 110,000. About 9,000 are from Britain, where support for the war is waning. Counterinsurgency theory concerning the time and the ratio of forces required to protect the population indicates that, nationwide, Afghanistan would need hundreds of thousands of coalition troops, perhaps for a decade or more. That is inconceivable.

So, instead, forces should be substantially reduced to serve a comprehensively revised policy: America should do only what can be done from offshore, using intelligence, drones, cruise missiles, airstrikes and small, potent Special Forces units, concentrating on the porous 1,500-mile border with Pakistan, a nation that actually matters.

Genius, said de Gaulle, recalling Bismarck's decision to halt German forces short of Paris in 1870, sometimes consists of knowing when to stop. Genius is not required to recognize that in Afghanistan, when means now, before more American valor, such as Allen's, is squandered.

georgewill@washpost.com

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/31/AR2009083102912.html
 
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It's both sensible and dangerous for US to pull out now. Sensible because they cannot win the war and this will only leave larger number of death civilians and soldiers. Dangerous because when Taliban comes back then I don't think they will sit quiet and not think of taking revenge from the Western continent. It's hectic situation right now, very hectic.
 
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I think if the US forces withdrew , that will have significant impacts upon Pakistan as well.
 
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Time to Get Out of Afghanistan


By George F. Will
Tuesday, September 1, 2009

"Yesterday," reads the e-mail from Allen, a Marine in Afghanistan, "I gave blood because a Marine, while out on patrol, stepped on a [mine's] pressure plate and lost both legs." Then "another Marine with a bullet wound to the head was brought in. Both Marines died this morning."

This Story
A Middle Way On Afghanistan?
Is the War in Afghanistan Worth Fighting?
Time to Get Out of AfghanistanThis Story
Time to Get Out of Afghanistan
Is the War in Afghanistan Worth Fighting?
William Kristol: No Will, No Way
"I'm sorry about the drama," writes Allen, an enthusiastic infantryman willing to die "so that each of you may grow old." He says: "I put everything in God's hands." And: "Semper Fi!"

Allen and others of America's finest are also in Washington's hands. This city should keep faith with them by rapidly reversing the trajectory of America's involvement in Afghanistan, where, says the Dutch commander of coalition forces in a southern province, walking through the region is "like walking through the Old Testament."

U.S. strategy -- protecting the population -- is increasingly troop-intensive while Americans are increasingly impatient about "deteriorating" (says Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) conditions. The war already is nearly 50 percent longer than the combined U.S. involvements in two world wars, and NATO assistance is reluctant and often risible.

The U.S. strategy is "clear, hold and build." Clear? Taliban forces can evaporate and then return, confident that U.S. forces will forever be too few to hold gains. Hence nation-building would be impossible even if we knew how, and even if Afghanistan were not the second-worst place to try: The Brookings Institution ranks Somalia as the only nation with a weaker state.


Military historian Max Hastings says Kabul controls only about a third of the country -- "control" is an elastic concept -- and " 'our' Afghans may prove no more viable than were 'our' Vietnamese, the Saigon regime." Just 4,000 Marines are contesting control of Helmand province, which is the size of West Virginia. The New York Times reports a Helmand official saying he has only "police officers who steal and a small group of Afghan soldiers who say they are here for 'vacation.' " Afghanistan's $23 billion gross domestic product is the size of Boise's. Counterinsurgency doctrine teaches, not very helpfully, that development depends on security, and that security depends on development. Three-quarters of Afghanistan's poppy production for opium comes from Helmand. In what should be called Operation Sisyphus, U.S. officials are urging farmers to grow other crops. Endive, perhaps?

Even though violence exploded across Iraq after, and partly because of, three elections, Afghanistan's recent elections were called "crucial." To what? They came, they went, they altered no fundamentals, all of which militate against American "success," whatever that might mean. Creation of an effective central government? Afghanistan has never had one. U.S. Ambassador Karl Eikenberry hopes for a "renewal of trust" of the Afghan people in the government, but the Economist describes President Hamid Karzai's government -- his vice presidential running mate is a drug trafficker -- as so "inept, corrupt and predatory" that people sometimes yearn for restoration of the warlords, "who were less venal and less brutal than Mr. Karzai's lot."

Mullen speaks of combating Afghanistan's "culture of poverty." But that took decades in just a few square miles of the South Bronx. Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the U.S. commander in Afghanistan, thinks jobs programs and local government services might entice many "accidental guerrillas" to leave the Taliban. But before launching New Deal 2.0 in Afghanistan, the Obama administration should ask itself: If U.S. forces are there to prevent reestablishment of al-Qaeda bases -- evidently there are none now -- must there be nation-building invasions of Somalia, Yemen and other sovereignty vacuums?

U.S. forces are being increased by 21,000, to 68,000, bringing the coalition total to 110,000. About 9,000 are from Britain, where support for the war is waning. Counterinsurgency theory concerning the time and the ratio of forces required to protect the population indicates that, nationwide, Afghanistan would need hundreds of thousands of coalition troops, perhaps for a decade or more. That is inconceivable.

So, instead, forces should be substantially reduced to serve a comprehensively revised policy: America should do only what can be done from offshore, using intelligence, drones, cruise missiles, airstrikes and small, potent Special Forces units, concentrating on the porous 1,500-mile border with Pakistan, a nation that actually matters.

Genius, said de Gaulle, recalling Bismarck's decision to halt German forces short of Paris in 1870, sometimes consists of knowing when to stop. Genius is not required to recognize that in Afghanistan, when means now, before more American valor, such as Allen's, is squandered.

georgewill@washpost.com

washingtonpost.com

I don't think US will withdraw, at least not now. It's a diplomatic statement: If China and Russia want to send troops into Afghanistan within the framework of SCO, US will veto the draft.

Afghanistan is the most valuable chip that US has right now.
 
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George Will is correct...But only up to a point. Afghanistan is, for all practical purposes, a 'failed state'. If the US withdraw militarily today, we will have no choice but remain engaged with Afghanistan in some other indirect ways. It was the Taliban that accommodated Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda. There is no guarantee that the same accommodation will not resume. Another attack on US interests or even on US soil is inevitable if that accommodation resume. The US will respond, again, with the only type of response the Taliban understand -- force. The US does not need to have boots in Afghanistan in order to have a protracted US-Afghanistan war. Will is correct that we should get out of Afghanistan -- for now.
 
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George Will is correct...But only up to a point. Afghanistan is, for all practical purposes, a 'failed state'. If the US withdraw militarily today, we will have no choice but remain engaged with Afghanistan in some other indirect ways. It was the Taliban that accommodated Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda. There is no guarantee that the same accommodation will not resume. Another attack on US interests or even on US soil is inevitable if that accommodation resume. The US will respond, again, with the only type of response the Taliban understand -- force. The US does not need to have boots in Afghanistan in order to have a protracted US-Afghanistan war. Will is correct that we should get out of Afghanistan -- for now.

ftw, Pull out with no Bin Laden?
 
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The US should turn over Afghanistan to the ISI again. That is, the US should allow Pakistan to nurture a quasi-client state dominated by Pashtuns, with US funding and political support. This might be done on a five year time horizon with complete strategic co-operation between Pakistan and the US. The caveats would be that the "new" Pakistan "project" in Afghanistan would have to make peace with the non-Pashtuns via lot's of autonomy for the non-Pashtun areas (i.e., quasi-partition of Afghanistan) and the new Pashtun leadership could not be allowed to host al-Qaeda or other foreign jihadi groups, again. Of course many (Indians and Iranians?) would scream over the realpolitik nature of this idea, so the US and Pakistan would have to proceed paying lip service to a "unified" Afghanistan while enabling Pashtun re-emergence in Pashtun dominated Afghanistan provinces.The US would retain the "right" to strike at al Qaeda, with Pakistani and Afghani co-operation.
 
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The US should turn over Afghanistan to the ISI again. That is, the US should allow Pakistan to nurture a quasi-client state dominated by Pashtuns, with US funding and political support. This might be done on a five year time horizon with complete strategic co-operation between Pakistan and the US. The caveats would be that the "new" Pakistan "project" in Afghanistan would have to make peace with the non-Pashtuns via lot's of autonomy for the non-Pashtun areas (i.e., quasi-partition of Afghanistan) and the new Pashtun leadership could not be allowed to host al-Qaeda or other foreign jihadi groups, again. Of course many (Indians and Iranians?) would scream over the realpolitik nature of this idea, so the US and Pakistan would have to proceed paying lip service to a "unified" Afghanistan while enabling Pashtun re-emergence in Pashtun dominated Afghanistan provinces.The US would retain the "right" to strike at al Qaeda, with Pakistani and Afghani co-operation.

i dunno about this move
 
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The US should turn over Afghanistan to the ISI again. That is, the US should allow Pakistan to nurture a quasi-client state dominated by Pashtuns, with US funding and political support. This might be done on a five year time horizon with complete strategic co-operation between Pakistan and the US. The caveats would be that the "new" Pakistan "project" in Afghanistan would have to make peace with the non-Pashtuns via lot's of autonomy for the non-Pashtun areas (i.e., quasi-partition of Afghanistan) and the new Pashtun leadership could not be allowed to host al-Qaeda or other foreign jihadi groups, again. Of course many (Indians and Iranians?) would scream over the realpolitik nature of this idea, so the US and Pakistan would have to proceed paying lip service to a "unified" Afghanistan while enabling Pashtun re-emergence in Pashtun dominated Afghanistan provinces.

The best idea I have read in years coming from West , totally second that :agree:

If Pakistani interest along with Indian and Iranian can be balanced by US (which is not now) and extremist (foreign fighters)are keep out or check on with US Pakistani alliance, things can become better :agree:
 
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It's both sensible and dangerous for US to pull out now. Sensible because they cannot win the war and this will only leave larger number of death civilians and soldiers. Dangerous because when Taliban comes back then I don't think they will sit quiet and not think of taking revenge from the Western continent. It's hectic situation right now, very hectic.

I'm sorry to disappoint you but Taliban still controls most of Afghanistan, its just Kabul and some Persian-speaking areas thats under Karzai/U.S/NATO control.

And how will Taliban take revenge on the west when U.S./NATO troops leave Afghanistan? Do Taliban even know where U.S. and U.K. are on the world map? Have they ever been outside Central/South Asia? Will any western country offer them visa? Its the ARAB Al-Queda that U.S. blames for 9/11 attacks not Afghan Taliban. None of the 9/11 hijackers were either Afghan or Pakistani, all of them were Arabs, and look how much our countries are suffering and not the wealthy Arab countries (where all of the hijackers come from). If Taliban takes revenge they will take revenge on those Afghans who've been loyal to the west.

One thing I give credit to Afghans, even the Afghan Taliban, is that they know how to defend their homeland from invaders. First the British, then the Soviets, and now the Americans.
 
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Trust me ISI is not happy with US right now DG ISI refused to talk to any US Generals and stuff and you can keep your 5 year horizon to yourself because we have different plans who is Al-Qaeda ? there's no such thing as Al-Qaeda is Afghanistan anymore only Talibans lead by Mullah Omar which is supported by ISI.Drone attacks on Pakistan turn all the ties against US.

Whether the ISI is happy or not with the US invasion of Afghanistan and the negative repercussions regionally, there is no doubt over a commonality of purpose in ensuring that trans-national terrorist groups, especially those like Al Qaeda that are focused on targeting the West, do not find sanctuary and support in Afghanistan or Pakistan.

Pakistan's entire involvement with the Taliban revolved around creating a pro-Pakistan government in Afghanistan that would control and stabilize the country.

It was not, and is not, about exacting revenge from the West, setting up a 'Pan-Islamic Caliphate', or an "Islamic global conquest".

Al Qaeda is real, or at least the terrorists that have no qualms about blowing up truck bombs in crowded market places and carrying out sectarian killings are real, as are those plotting attacks against Western targets - call them whatever you want.

They must be eliminated or at least hounded everywhere so that they do not bring to fruition their evil plans.
 
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The US should turn over Afghanistan to the ISI again. That is, the US should allow Pakistan to nurture a quasi-client state dominated by Pashtuns, with US funding and political support. This might be done on a five year time horizon with complete strategic co-operation between Pakistan and the US. .

I can imagine the screams from all sides if this was done but it is practical. It does get most of the US troops out satisfying the US public and removes the "excuse" the jihadists use.

A few questions, how likely is the complete coperation of the ISI and how likely do you think do you think Iran and India are to agree.
I can see at best afghanistan turning into another Kashmir with RAW and the ISI throwing teams of locals against each other and Iran interfering occasional when it thinks its interests are threatened.

Afghanistan in a slow burning state of continual civil war is hardly a best outcome but neither is it the worst possible.

It might take Jack Nicholson to get the JCS to agree.
 
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Absolutely.It is ISI responsibility to make sure that Pakistan soil is not used for attacks on the interest of US and same goes for Afghanistan soil if the regime is heavily backed by us.Clearly ISI failed in this aspect thanks to arrogant people like Mullah Omar who did not listen to the ISI...
 
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"I'm sorry to disappoint you but Taliban still controls most of Afghanistan..."

B.S.

28% of the land the taliban have NO militarily significant presence. 72% of the land is contested.

Please understand, if you can, that we KICK THEIR AZZES when we show up. They CONTROL nothing that we choose to stand on.

Contested? Certainly, but only by our sporadic presence. Controlled? Get real.:disagree:
 
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"I'm sorry to disappoint you but Taliban still controls most of Afghanistan..."

B.S.

28% of the land the taliban have NO militarily significant presence. 72% of the land is contested.

Please understand, if you can, that we KICK THEIR AZZES when we show up. They CONTROL nothing that we choose to stand on.

Contested? Certainly, but only by our sporadic presence. Controlled? Get real.:disagree:

So its a Cat and Mouse game going on , when you show up they disappear and when you leave they appear again. They are getting smarter :coffee:
 
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