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Time to Get Out of Afghanistan

Its time for Pakistan to take some bold decisions; what if USA leaves now? We have to bring pro-Pakistan Taliban in the main stream and should control Afghanistan now. We need to convey this to USA that Afghanistan must be controlled by Pakistan with the help of pro-Pakistan Taliban so that we can eliminate the Indian influence and their supported Northern alliance people.
 
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Its time for Pakistan to take some bold decisions; what if USA leaves now? We have to bring pro-Pakistan Taliban in the main stream and should control Afghanistan now. We need to convey this to USA that Afghanistan must be controlled by Pakistan with the help of pro-Pakistan Taliban so that we can eliminate the Indian influence and their supported Northern alliance people.

Why would the Americans agree to let Pakistan control Afghanistan?

The only thing we need to do is to convince the Americans that a (ethnically) representative government, similar to Iraq or Lebanon, would constitute "victory" and they can leave. If they want to pat themselves on the back on the way out, no worries. They are even ready to talk to the Taliban so, clearly, the goal of democracy has now taken a back seat. They'll settle for stability.

How we deal with India after NATO leaves, and whether we "control" Afghanistan is our concern. No need to tell anyone else or get their permission.
 
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"The Taliban's offer of a trial in a third country of choice should have been explored."

The rest of the globe disagreed.

Because you browbeated them into supporting your warmongering.


If we didn't care Afghanistan would have long since ceased to EXIST.

Quit playing to the crowd and put your rational WESTERN thinking cap back on...

...you know, the one for which you've paid so much tuition to absorb for your betterment.:)

Thanks.
Care has different levels - you cared enough about your image, and enough about the extent to which you could garner global support to where you chose a rush to war without exploring alternatives, instead of genocide, for which you would have arguably not gotten much support.

The US did not come even close to exploring any of the options available aside from war.

My 'thinking cap' is on - that of the US leadership was not back in 2001, or later in the Iraq invasion and occupation.

Hopefully that 'lack of thinking and warmongering hysteria' is not the education I have paid for.
 
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It was your duty to have ensured that every opportunity outside of war to bring the alleged perpetrators of 911 to task was utilized - you did not do that, in fact refused to do that.
And we did, before Sept 11, 2001, under two Clinton Presidential terms. The WTC towers was (unsucessfully) bombed back in 1993.

The Taliban's offer of a trial in a third country of choice should have been explored.
Too late. And it is within our right after a decade of trying to negotiate with the Taliban to say so. More civilian Americans died on Sept 11, 2001 than US Navy personnels on Dec 7, 1941.

I will put it this way...The reason why people here can get on their high horse and say the US 'should have' done this or that is because a '9/11' scale attack did not happened on their soil. After '9/11' internal security forces of all countries began self assessments of what their responses should be if a '9/11' were to occur on their watch against their citizens. The results were not pleasant for the likes of the IRA, for example.
 
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And we did, before Sept 11, 2001, under two Clinton Presidential terms. The WTC towers was (unsucessfully) bombed back in 1993.
The US had no indictment against Bin Laden when he was expelled from Sudan, in 1995-1996, before he went to Afghanistan.

And the Taliban offered signs of a trial in a third 'Muslim' country before 911 as well:

The Taliban have long said they won't hand bin Laden over because the United States has no evidence proving his links to terrorism and that giving him to a non-Muslim country for trial would violate the tenets of Islam.

But some in the leadership have hinted at flexibilty – and there has been speculation the Taliban may be willing to hand over bin Laden to a third country if he could be guaranteed a trial under Islamic law.

Mohammed Suhail Shaheen, second in command at the Taliban's embassy in Pakistan, told the AP last week that "we want a solution to the Osama issue, but the dignity of both Afghanistan and America must be taken into account."
Taliban Won't Hand Over Bin Laden

This offer was repeated with more specificity after 911:

"Osama will not be extradited without evidence: Taliban"

"...Our position on this is that if America has proof, we are ready
for the trial of Osama bin Laden in light of the evidence."

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'Asked whether the Taliban would allow a trial of Bin Laden in another
country, he said: "We are willing to talk about that, but the first is
that we must be given the evidence."
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The Afghan Islamic Press (AIP) quoted Mullah Zaeff as saying: "If
America is not satisfied with our trial of Osama, we are also ready to
find another Islamic way of trying him."'

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By October 17, 2001, The Guardian was reporting that the Taliban was
offering a deal that didn't require evidence.

"For the first time, the Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden for
trial in a country other than the US without asking to see evidence
first in return for a halt to the bombing, a source close to
Pakistan's military leadership said.

But US officials appear to have dismissed the proposal and are
instead hoping to engineer a split within the Taliban leadership.
The offer was brought by Mullah Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil, the Taliban
foreign minister and a man who is often regarded as a more moderate figure in the regime."

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=582916

Too late. And it is within our right after a decade of trying to negotiate with the Taliban to say so. More civilian Americans died on Sept 11, 2001 than US Navy personnels on Dec 7, 1941.

I don't see a decade of negotiation, the Taliban were not in power for a decade to begin with, about five years (1996-2001). When Sudan was expelling Bin Laden as late as 1995, this is what the US position was per the 911 commission report:

"In late 1995, when Bin Laden was still in Sudan, the State Department and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) learned that Sudanese officials were discussing with the Saudi government the possibility of expelling Bin Laden. US Ambassador Timothy Carney encouraged the Sudanese to pursue this course. The Saudis, however, did not want Bin Laden, giving as their reason their revocation of his citizenship. Sudan’s minister of defense, Fatih Erwa, has claimed that Sudan offered to hand Bin Laden over to the United States. The Commission has found no credible evidence that this was so. Ambassador Carney had instructions only to push the Sudanese to expel Bin Laden. Ambassador Carney had no legal basis to ask for more from the Sudanese since, at the time, there was no indictment outstanding."

I will put it this way...The reason why people here can get on their high horse and say the US 'should have' done this or that is because a '9/11' scale attack did not happened on their soil. After '9/11' internal security forces of all countries began self assessments of what their responses should be if a '9/11' were to occur on their watch against their citizens. The results were not pleasant for the likes of the IRA, for example.
The reason people get on their 'high horse' over the US invasion of Afghanistan is because Pakistan and Pakistanis have paid an extremely high price, and continue to pay an extremely high price, as a consequence of that US decision.

The problem is the myopia that exists amongst some Americas where everything begins and ends with 911 and the US casualties. From the Pakistani perspective, your decision to go to war has cost us magnitudes more in blood and treasure than your casualties on September 11. From a regional and 'Muslim' perspective (since many think of things in the latter context as well) the casualty toll skyrockets even higher when adding in the death and destruction in Afghanistan as a consequence of the invasion.
 
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That would be ...Pakistan.

Its hard, I know, but try not to troll and flame.

Just to humor you, the correct answer would be ending the occupation of Kashmir and Palestine by implementing the plebiscite called for in the UNSC resolutions - you know, the same institution to whose permanent membership your nation aspires to, and the same institution whose resolutions and 'mandate', when serving US interests, are thrown around as justification for US actions.
 
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"...and what ever terrorism going on in Pakistan is American fault.India is supporting terrorism in Pakistan under US umbrella and TTP getting weapons from Afghanistan which is now US responsibility."

You're in self-denial.

That's pathetic.

Same goes for you that why US losing both war .Americans only hear what they want to hear.
Open your eyes and see the reality may you will be save from defeat.

I fell sorry for you.
 
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The British army could be broken by another humiliation in Afghanistan
Monday, September 07, 2009
By Andrew Rawnsley

In Eric Joyce’s noisy letter of resignation as an aide to the defence secretary, the Labour MP wrote that he had chosen this moment to quit because it “seems to me the least disruptive time to do that”. This is not at all how it seemed to Gordon Brown who felt very disrupted indeed. The prime minister stomped around Number 10 angrily demanding: “Why wasn’t I told? Why wasn’t he stopped?” Major Joyce held the insignificant political rank of PPS, but his decision to tear off his stripes resonated because he was previously characterised by his über-loyalty and is unique among Labour MPs in having any recent experience of serving as an army officer. The galloping major’s resignation was not the prelude that the prime minister wanted for his supposedly definitive speech on Afghanistan.

It was a speech which tried to explain what success might look like, but was inevitably haunted by the failures that forced him to address the subject. The history of this conflict has been told in terms of triumph and disaster, those twin impostors of Kipling’s poetry. Many of the current difficulties flow from the deluded triumphalism of eight years ago when, in the wake of 9/11, the Americans with British help toppled Mohammed Omar’s diabolical Taliban regime. The rapidity of that victory appeared to confound all the dire warnings about Afghanistan being a graveyard for foreign armies. One delirious American neocon wrote: “With less than a month to prepare, American troops and aircraft had charged into this country, overthrown its government, destroyed its terrorist bases and hunted down their enemies, while losing only 15 of their own to enemy action.” Never had regime change seemed such a piece of cake.

Just as in Iraq, there was scant attention paid to the sequel: the tough, expensive and long-term challenge of conflict resolution and nation building. “We will not walk away,” promised Tony Blair before the west did just that. The Germans, having promised to take responsibility for training the Afghan police, sent a grand total of 17 officers to do the job. “US forces will not stay,” George Bush declared to a meeting of his National Security Council on the very day that the Taliban fled Kabul. Michael Boyce, the then chief of the British armed forces, did his best to scratch together a Nato peace-keeping force, but it was never adequate for the task and lingered there without clear military or political objectives.

The drug traffickers continued to ply their trade. Large swaths of Afghanistan were left under the control of war lords. Ordinary Afghans, fearful that international forces were going to leave them to the mercy of the Taliban as it became resurgent, were given no incentive to commit to the building of a stable Afghan state. The Karzai regime became increasingly corrupt and dedicated to little more than its own survival.

When Britain deployed to Helmand in the first half of 2006, John Reid made a contribution to the compendium entitled Things Politicians Wish They’d Never Said when he voiced the hope that British troops might return “without firing a shot”. Three years and more than 200 casualties later, they are still engaged with the Taliban. The publicly stated objectives of the mission have repeatedly shifted and constant talk of decisive moments has raised public expectations of a successful exit, expectations which have been repeatedly dashed. It was not just the politicians who misunderstood the nature of the task. The top brass of the military lobbied intensively for the deployment to Helmand. Despairing of Iraq, the army thought, as one involved in that decision says, that: “It would be a nice, winnable war.”

The hubris of those phrases has now flipped into an equally treacherous despair. I keep reading that Afghanistan is turning into a British “Vietnam”. It is also routinely said that Nato must cut its losses and run if it is not to suffer the same fate as the Red Army during the Soviet Union’s catastrophic attempt to impose a Marxist dictatorship from Kabul. That defeatism is as glib and dangerous as the earlier delusional triumphalism of the neocons. During the eight-and-a-half years of the Soviet occupation, Russia lost hundreds of aircraft and tanks, in excess of 14,000 troops and more than 50,000 of its forces were wounded. In Vietnam, the Americans suffered more than 50,000 casualties. As I write, the number of American troops killed in Afghanistan is 742 and the number of British is 212. Any loss of life is terrible, but 954 is a long way from 50,000.

It is worth remembering that when the Taliban controlled Afghanistan, only a million children were getting an education, none of them girls. Today, there are more than six million in school, more than two million of them girls. It is an achievement that, thanks to international aid, many more Afghans have access to basic health care. The Taliban have been roundly defeated whenever they have been drawn on to the battlefield which is why they switched to terror tactics.

The summer offensive in Helmand, which has won ground but at the cost of a big spike in British casualties, will be a success only if the troops stay to hold and build something for the people. The shortage of soldiers has cramped the ability to secure territory and left their commanders over-reliant on airpower. Misdirected American air strikes have caused mass civilian casualties, like the large numbers killed on the very day Mr Brown made his speech. That is one of the biggest sources of Afghan alienation from the allies.

With a mounting body count, open dissent from some army commanders and no end in sight, it is scarcely surprising that there has been a severe erosion in support for the commitment. It is more remarkable, given the growing unpopularity of the war, that none of the main opposition parties is yet advocating withdrawal. The Conservatives opportunistically seize on every setback, but they are not crying “troops out”. In so much as the Tories have a policy, it is to advocate sending more troops in, though they are stumped when asked where they would come from.

The Lib Dems are flirting with a withdrawalist position without actually advocating it. Nick Clegg tells us: “There’s a tipping point where we have to ask ourselves whether we can do this job properly, and if we can’t do it properly, we shouldn’t do it at all.” And what is this geostrategist’s answer to his own important question? “I don’t think we are there yet.” That’s jolly enlightening from Captain Clegg.

The contribution from Angus Robertson, the leader of the Scottish Nationalists at Westminster, is to call for “a major rethink that looks at all the options”. While Major Rethink is doing his pondering, real soldiers are fighting and dying. Eric Joyce argues that “leaving the field to the United States would mean the end of Nato as a meaningful proposition” and he is surely right about that.

Britain is fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan for a mixture of reasons: the good, the bad, and the unspoken. An unspoken one is British military pride. Britain’s involvement in Iraq had an awful denouement when Tony Blair left such a denuded force of troops in the south that they were forced to retreat to their military base at the airport to leave Basra to the mercy of Iranian-supplied militias and criminal gangs. Authority and order were restored later in Operation Charge of the Knights when the Iraqi army, with the support of the Americans, reclaimed the city. The British army could be broken by another humiliation like that which would make all the previous sacrifice seem in vain.

Another unspoken reason – unspoken, anyway, by Mr Brown – is that a precipitate withdrawal will almost certainly turn an awful situation into a catastrophic one. The Karzai regime is corrupt and compromised. This summer’s presidential elections have been flawed and tainted by allegations of fraud. That is bad, but still infinitely preferable to a return to Taliban dictatorship or a civil war. Leaving Afghanistan to descend into absolute chaos would destabilise its nuclear-tipped neighbour, Pakistan, and draw in Iran, India and Russia.

The British army could be broken by
 
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Hi,


Gotta go--gotta go--gotta go----u s will one day---leave afghanistan.

9/11 was a horrible tragedy---no doubt about it---but the indiscriminate killings of 100's of thousands of muslims in afghanistan and iraq in revenge has also turned into a terrible tragedy---.

Time is the greatest equalizer of things----as was the invention of KALASHNIKOV. To those who think that the u s will be in afghanistan---killing my brothers for 50 years more---its a pipe dream---we will be techincally further ahead in weapons systems as well---not as much----but the gap will be closed.

The right wing christians wanted to make a christian nation out of afghanistan---they thought that they would buy the soul and heart of the afghan warrior by giving him money and aid---just like they did in korea---and in japan---so many missionaries in the form of welfare societies came into afghanistan in one form or the other---till some of them were taken hostage by the taliban---the news came out in print and tv---and then the great born again christian transformation came to an end in afghanistan.

Now only if the american news media takes off its censorship and starts inviting pakistanis on the news channels and interviews---like some of the generals who don't kowtow to the u s policy---we will see how the american public reacts to that---once they find out about the other face of TRUTH.
 
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British soldiers should all go home , they are not wanted any where .. lol :P

Song of the Irish :

"Go on home British Soldiers Go on home
Have you got no bloody homes of your own
For 800 years we've fought you without fear
And we will fight you for 800 more!! "
-- The Wolfetones


 
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Hi S 2,

Take this song and give to Rummy---Cheney and the christian coalition.
 
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Not sure what will happen to Afghanistan.It's one hell of a mess.
 
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looks like britain hasnt forgotten their humaliation against afghanistan 100 yrs ago 'nd therefore might keep trying to win over afghanistan. idiots
 
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