Thread by request: Issues facing Pakistan and their potential solutions

[The Accountant]

I have read the declaration, but you have to answer my question first if we are to continue step by step.

What portion of the Israeli Constitution establishes a state religion by force of law?

After you answer, then we will move on to the next step.

Do Israel has a constitution?

Brother you have to do some efforts atleast on the areas you dont know if you really want to continue this discussion otherwise if its an argument for the sake of argument then i dont have time to waste

and how much of that, if any is followed by the successive govt of Pakistan?

Agreed and that is my argument. How can you declare Islam as a reason of backwardness of Pakistan when it is not even implemented ?

Reasons of backwardness of Pakistan is illetracy and lack of hard work. Islam or no Islam illetracy will keep you backword ...

On the contrary islam will provide a system of justice and equality which will help us prosper.

 

[VCheng]

Do Israel has a constitution?

Brother you have to do some efforts atleast on the areas you dont know if you really want to continue this discussion otherwise if its an argument for the sake of argument then i dont have time to waste

Exactly.

Israel does not even have a written Constitution to establish a state religion by force of law.

Now compare that with the Constitution of Pakistan. Do you see the difference?

On the contrary islam will provide a system of justice and equality which will help us prosper.

Yes, we can see the prosperity brought about by this system.

 

[The Accountant]

Exactly.

Israel does not even have a written Constitution to establish a state religion by force of law.

Now compare that with the Constitution of Pakistan. Do you see the difference?



Yes, we can see the prosperity brought about by this system.

You are wring here.

Israel do not have written conatitution but guiding laws and the most important one of them are the balford declaration and the declaration of independence of israel. Both are the founding and governing documents and clearly state that the objective of creation of israel is setllement of jews and the establishment of lost jewish estate.

Now go and read the document and check if i am wrong otherwise there is no point of continuing as it will be just argument for the sake of argument

 

[VCheng]

You are wring here.

Israel do not have written conatitution but guiding laws and the most important one of them are the balford declaration and the declaration of independence of israel. Both are the founding and governing documents and clearly state that the objective of creation of israel is setllement of jews and the establishment of lost jewish estate.

Now go and read the document and check if i am wrong otherwise there is no point of continuing as it will be just argument for the sake of argument

I have read the declarations. Where do you think it established a state religion to be enforced by the state by force of law? Please quote that portion.

 

[The Accountant]

I have read the declarations. Where do you think it established a state religion to be enforced by the state by force of law? Please quote that portion.

The whole is estavlished for jews and jewish religion nothing else. What more evidence you want ? The documents are just talking about jews jewish exile jews return.

So if something is for a particular community that it is for their rule and their laws ...

Now the effect of this document is that they extract and practice their laws from talmud their hily book rquivallent to out sahih hadith

 

[VCheng]

The whole is estavlished for jews and jewish religion nothing else. What more evidence you want ? The documents are just talking about jews jewish exile jews return.

So if something is for a particular community that it is for their rule and their laws ...

Now the effect of this document is that they extract and practice their laws from talmud their hily book rquivallent to out sahih hadith

So please quote the portion of any document that establishes a state religion by force of law?

 

[salarsikander]

. How can you declare Islam as a reason of backwardness of Pakistan when it is not even implemented ?

Who in Good lords name said that? Please point where i or other member has explicitly stated that ? you see this is exactly the reason why the state and govt should be free of religion as it is not their job tio be thekedar of islam.
Yours is a classic misinterpreting of what I said. And that is exactly what different molovis and govt have been doing and interpreting Islam according to themselves and not agreeing with other sects.

The state has no business imposing religion on anyone, its job is to protect and provide for its citizen, Yes they can take leave from Islam and implement it as done in Western societies but must be free of religion, that does not ake people working for state any less Muslim

On the contrary islam will provide a system of justice and equality which will help us prosper.

Sure it does if everyone follow the in principle, Can you see what Iqbal had to say for the west ? when he went there/. He stated that when I visit west I see Islam and no Muslims and When I come back to East I see Muslims and no Islam. This is the difference here.

The state has no right to enforce the religion on anyone! Pakistan was made fr Muslims and not for Islam. Please check the link of the video that I have shared earlier by Dr Israr Ahmed on what I just said to understand better

 

[The Accountant]

Don't play with the words. A state specially formed to create a jewish state has an effect of state taking the responsibility of implementing religion in the affairs of state.

So please quote the portion of any document that establishes a state religion by force of law?

 

[VCheng]

Don't play with the words. A state specially formed to create a jewish state has an effect of state taking the responsibility of implementing religion in the affairs of state.

So you have failed to find a single reference creating a state religion to be enforced by law for your example.

Shall we move on to the next step?

 

[The Accountant]

Who in Good lords name said that? Please point where i or other member has explicitly stated that ? you see this is exactly the reason why the state and govt should be free of religion as it is not their job tio be thekedar of islam.
Yours is a classic misinterpreting of what I said. And that is exactly what different molovis and govt have been doing and interpreting Islam according to themselves and not agreeing with other sects.

The state has no business imposing religion on anyone, its job is to protect and provide for its citizen, Yes they can take leave from Islam and implement it as done in Western societies but must be free of religion, that does not ake people working for state any less Muslim


Sure it does if everyone follow the in principle, Can you see what Iqbal had to say for the west ? when he went there/. He stated that when I visit west I see Islam and no Muslims and When I come back to East I see Muslims and no Islam. This is the difference here.

The state has no right to enforce the religion on anyone! Pakistan was made fr Muslims and not for Islam. Please check the link of the video that I have shared earlier by Dr Israr Ahmed on what I just said to understand better

Can you please tell me where is the state of Pakistan impose religion on individuals of its citizen? I dont see any provision where state makes its mandatory for individual to offer prayers, or offer hajj or practice fast. State responsibility is to govern the life of community and whenever there is a communal islamic event state will involved be it economics or social rights.

 

[salarsikander]

Can you please tell me where is the state of Pakistan impose religion on individuals of its citizen? I dont see any provision where state makes its mandatory for individual to offer prayers, or offer hajj or practice fast. State responsibility is to govern the life of community and whenever there is a communal islamic event state will involved be it economics or social rights.

Read the objectives resolution first. So you dont see how State has imposed that none could eat anything outside in Ramadan regardless of his religious affiliation?

How can you declare Islam as a reason of backwardness of Pakistan when it is not even implemented

I am still waiting for the answer on this one

 

[The Accountant]

Exactly.

Israel does not even have a written Constitution to establish a state religion by force of law.

Now compare that with the Constitution of Pakistan. Do you see the difference?



Yes, we can see the prosperity brought about by this system.

Did you ever implemented Islam in Pakistan? Did you ever implemented Islamic principles of justice and equality? Is your penal code extracted from Quran or by British colonial system?

Call spade a spade.

 

[VCheng]

Did you ever implemented Islam in Pakistan? Did you ever implemented Islamic principles of justice and equality? Is your penal code extracted from Quran or by British colonial system?

Call spade a spade.

So are you saying that we are trying to implement something for the last 70 years that is not possible? Sounds pretty foolish.

Call a spade a spade? Of course. Read the Objectives Resolution and you will have your answers. Or try the Preamble to the Constitution.

(Or, if you are really into it, try Part IX.)

 

[The Accountant]

Read the objectives resolution first. So you dont see how State has imposed that none could eat anything outside in Ramadan regardless of his religious affiliation?

Here are the extracts of objective resolutions:

1. Sovereignty of the entire Universe belongs to Allah alone
   
   
2. Authority should be delegated to the State trough its people under the rules set by Allah
   
   
3. Constitution of Pakistan should be framed by the Constituent Assembly
   
   
4. State should exercise its powers through the chosen representatives
   
   
5. Principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice, as inshore by Islam should be followed
   
   
6. Muslims shall live their lives according the teaching of Quran and Sunnah
   
   
7. Minorities can freely profess and practice their religion.
   
   
8. There should be Federal form of government with the maximum autonomy for the Units
   
   
9. Fundamental rights including equality of status, of opportunity and before law, social, economic and political justice, and freedom of thought, expression, belief, faith, worship and association, subject to law and public morality should be given to all the citizens of the state.
   
   
10. It would be the duty of the state to safeguard the interests of minorities, backward and depressed classes.
    
    
11. Independence of judiciary should be guaranteed
    
    
12. Integrity of the territory and sovereignty of the country was to be safeguarded
    
    
13. The people of Pakistan may prosper and attain their rightful and honored place amongst the nations of the world and make their full contribution towards international peace and progress and happiness of humanity.

Tell me which part of this is a hindrance in development of Pakistan?

Do you really believe closure of restaurants in month of Ramadan is the reason of non-development of Pakistan?

Ok even if we stop this, even we start night clubs in liquor in Pakistan will this increase the exports of Pakistan? Or it will reduce the import bill, or do this has any impact on current account deficit?

Of is this is the case then why despite practicing all this East Europe or Far East Asians like philipno are suffering for similar fate as we Pakistani?

Kindly don't impose your opinion. Give facts of the relationship between objective resolution's religious statements and current problems of Pakistan. Be objective with evidence and don't share your opinion please

I am still waiting for the answer on this one

Below is the extract of OP
The Objectives Resolution, which mixes matters of religion with matters of State, and is proving to be nearly fatal to the country. Declaring religion in state is fatal.

So are you saying that we are trying to implement something for the last 70 years that is not possible? Sounds pretty foolish.

Call a spade a spade? Of course. Read the Objectives Resolution and you will have your answers. Or try the Preamble to the Constitution.

(Or, if you are really into it, try Part IX.)

When did we try to implement Islam in Pakistan? Did we try to abolish interest?
Did we implement capital punishment for adultery?
Did we implement punishment of cutting hand on theft?
Did we abolish liquor?

We foolishly put some statements in constitution which we never implemented.

 

[VCheng]

Tell me which part of this is a hindrance in development of Pakistan?

The part that makes a private matter like religion the business of the State to be enforced by law.