Things Anyone Who’s A Liberal In Pakistan Can Completely Understand

[Jungibaaz]

KFUR ka fatwa mubarik ho janab

Khair mubarak, it was only a matter of time.

 

[Zarvan]

Okay, look I don't have the mental perseverance necessary to see this conversation through to its end, which is doubtless as fruitless as the conversation has proved thus far. And by the way, separation of religion and state is exactly what I defined in my post to which you replied, you can read it again if you missed it.

No you didn't defined and even if I assume you did well issue is Islamically that is crystal clear kufr. So now only way a Muslim can be secular or support it by standing in opposition to what ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW have ordered and that is kufr. So Good Luck with promotion of secularism and have a very good day.

Khair mubarak, it was only a matter of time.

There is no fatwa here but what you are saying is what I said it's. If you don't than please read Quran and Sunnah in detail you would know it Sir.

 

[Zibago]

Yes they have but don't have guts to admit it openly in Pakistan.

Ab dil kay hal Allah nahi Zarvan janta hy

Khair mubarak, it was only a matter of time.

Welcome to the club

 

[I.R.A]

If you lot were genuine liberals, you would have understood this question immediately ... yet, you don't get it!

Weak argument sir................ it would have made sense if traditionalist Pakistanis would allow half of the Pakistanis to contribute to development of Pakistan and not remain at homes doing laundry, cleaning, cooking and looking after babies. I hope someday Pakistanis realise that that other half of the population can be more productive than just being baby making machines.

Messenger Muhammad (Peace be upon him) first married a business woman (May ALLAH be pleased with her), Hazrat Ayesha and other wives (May ALLAH be pleased with all of them) of Messenger (Peace be upon him) accompanied Muslims to battlefields, When Saad bin Abi Waqas (May ALLAH be please with him) was leading Islamic forces against Persia his wife was with him at the battle ground. And these pious ladies of Islam just didn't go to battlefields to enjoy the show but to help out and do their part.

its all about sharing the responsibility if she is a working woman chipping in 50% of household expenses (which is btw solely the guy's responsibility according to islam)

Sir it was the culture back then, it doesn't have to be same now, Islam doesn't stop anyone from getting educated, making progress and earning a respectable position in society. Islam wishes a healthy strong society and that is only possible when everyone is working and contributing according to his / her full capacity.

Why can't we replace Pakistani rotten system with some similar system so that everyone here too could live a respectable life and earn Rizq e Halal?

Sir if that other system is secular states of today, then we have already discussed that that system won't be Islamic, Pakistanis can adopt to be a secular if they wish to but they shouldn't call it Islamic. Islamic system is not what theocracy is and what secularism is. Personal laws and State laws cannot be separated under Islamic state. 24:55 and other verses are very clear. Islam is all about one entity and collective efforts there is no room for following Islam at individual level, this very act renders Islam to a religion and not Deen (Social order).

At least till the time Mahdi or Jesus appears and the mythical Islamic Utopian Kingdom is finally established. Until then we are on our own.

My following post is for people who can think beyond the perceived beliefs and have courage to question the man written history.

Jesus (Peace be upon him) is not coming back. He had a strong army in his times (as against to what we are normally made to believe), and has already dominated his opponents 61:14. This whole chapter 61 needs to be read to understand the importance of mentioning of Jesus and his army.

Mahdi is a fictional character created to raise insurgencies and further agenda of intrigues, many Mahdi have already come

Abu Muslim gave publicity to the fact that Im'am Mehdi shall be coming soon from the Khurasan side and that his army shall be clad in black uniform and its flag shall also be of black colour. When the propaganda reached its pitch, he himself came out of Khurasan with black army and a black flag: attacked Bani Omayya and defeated them. The caliphate thus became transferred to Bani Abbas. Abbasids.

 

[Finer]

Corruption -> Poverty

As long as we have poverty, you can forget reforming the society to how it should be. As I said, anyone selling Islam should be avoided and I am against all such people.

Conservatism is too broad a brush. A female and a male should have a choice in who they select as their life partner - I believe that too but still many here consider me to be conservative or ultra conservative.

Poverty is the reason due to several combination factors and one of them is conservative-dominated policy. Conservative and poverty goes hand to hand. It was the knowledge that eradicated poverty in Western World during their depression period. Thank to the Golden Age of Islam, the knowledge was passed on and gave new hope for the broken civilization struggling in the depression period.

Pakistan cannot progress under conservative society, and that means poverty is not going anywhere until the conservative society is eliminated. That's first thing Islam did before it made inroads for the progression as nation thus resulted the progressive society which empowered everyone including minority and women to support and shape the economy of the nation.

 

[Verve]

@Jungibaaz

Sir ji, you are wrong and @Zarvan is correct.

Secularism replaces Allah's sovereignty over all matters with a man or group of men and that is outright Shirk. Masterstroke by Satan but some utterly fail to see that.

Secularism is anti-Deen
Liberalism is anti-religion

If you can't understand that then what more can one say really.

Btw, is Satan a friend or foe according to you?

 

[Verve]

Weak argument sir................ it would have made sense if traditionalist Pakistanis would allow half of the Pakistanis to contribute to development of Pakistan and not remain at homes doing laundry, cleaning, cooking and looking after babies. I hope someday Pakistanis realise that that other half of the population can be more productive than just being baby making machines.

Sir, it was only a thought provoking question. Specifics are not as relevant as being made out.

Point was 'sirf zabaan ke liberal hain ya haath payr bhi halatay hain kay nahi genuine liberals ki tarha'.

And I agree with you. Our culture is quite warped on many things. But those who look up to liberal lifestyle perhaps do not fully understand what it is all about. A person doesn't forget his upbringing and taking up a new system for the lifestyle later in life is problematic to say the least.

 

[I.R.A]

Sir, it was only a thought provoking question. Specifics are not as relevant as being made out.

Point was 'sirf zabaan ke liberal hain ya haath payr bhi halatay hain kay nahi genuine liberals ki tarha'.

And I agree with you. Our culture is quite warped on many things. But those who look up to liberal lifestyle perhaps do not fully understand what it is all about. A person doesn't forget his upbringing and taking up a new system for the lifestyle later in life is problematic to say the least.

Our society is not only warped but hypocritical, "hain yeh kaway aur bany phirty hain More" ................. the only liberal thoughts that can change Pakistan would have to be from people who live and stay their whole lives in Pakistan, any borrowed ideas would always be resisted, miracles don't happen in countries where people are keen to think big but do little and their efforts are more towards inventing short cuts (hate for West created by politics and clergy is not going away that easily). OSPs would go crazy and confused if they ever really try bringing their (borrowed) ideas to Pakistan, bura nai manana par tum desi sahab logo ko thook lagany k liay Pakistanio ko ziada mehnat nai karni parti.

 

[F86 Saber]

Ab dil kay hal Allah nahi Zarvan janta hy


Welcome to the club

If being secular means not calling other sects "Kafir", respecting other religions, not ogling women first and calling them whores later, keeping a goatee instead of a beard... well then i am also a part of the club.

 

[Verve]

Our society is not only warped but hypocritical, "hain yeh kaway aur bany phirty hain More" ................. the only liberal thoughts that can change Pakistan would have to be from people who live and stay their whole lives in Pakistan, any borrowed ideas would always be resisted, miracles don't happen in countries where people are keen to think big but do little and their efforts are more towards inventing short cuts (hate for West created by politics and clergy is not going away that easily). OSPs would go crazy and confused if they ever really try bringing their (borrowed) ideas to Pakistan, bura nai manana par tum desi sahab logo ko thook lagany k liay Pakistanio ko ziada mehnat nai karni parti.

Hence the Chinese looking at Confucius .. for a system they can relate to and call their own. And to say that Chinese do not understand liberal secularism would be foolish.

And sir, those having lived all their lives part I can't agree with. Jinnah returned to win us our freedom.

Yes, the system would have to come from within and one that fits.

It is really amazing how everything is changing in the world at such a rapid pace, especially with Chinese moving to a system based on mortality and justice. And here we are talking of taking up a rotting and self destructive system that confines mortality to mere self. Simply wonderful.

 

[WAJsal]

i must admit i enjoy his presence in my threads

Thought so...

So Liberalism is a religion all of a sudden and can't be discussed!? And what's your bone with me anyways? Why the bias eh?

& Perhaps you'd like to tell @Horus the same. See his post below.

And perhaps you'd also like to teach some members manners who enjoy mocking other members at any given opportunity. This thread is full of such mockery.

And is this the section for 'non-serious' (aka piss-take) thread?

It's not up for debate, have been quite patient with you. Do tell me where Horus brings Islam into discussion? You are not to make non-serious threads into a serious one, be careful from here on.

No it's not natural thing that is why ALLAH destroyed entire nation which was involved in this crap. Go study about the nation of Lot

Arey bhai woh to thek hai, i am talking about real gay people you might see on the streets i hope you don't have anything against them.

Weak argument sir................ it would have made sense if traditionalist Pakistanis would allow half of the Pakistanis to contribute to development of Pakistan and not remain at homes doing laundry, cleaning, cooking and looking after babies. I hope someday Pakistanis realise that that other half of the population can be more productive than just being baby making machines.

Messenger Muhammad (Peace be upon him) first married a business woman (May ALLAH be pleased with her), Hazrat Ayesha and other wives (May ALLAH be pleased with all of them) of Messenger (Peace be upon him) accompanied Muslims to battlefields, When Saad bin Abi Waqas (May ALLAH be please with him) was leading Islamic forces against Persia his wife was with him at the battle ground. And these pious ladies of Islam just didn't go to battlefields to enjoy the show but to help out and do their part.




Sir it was the culture back then, it doesn't have to be same now, Islam doesn't stop anyone from getting educated, making progress and earning a respectable position in society. Islam wishes a healthy strong society and that is only possible when everyone is working and contributing according to his / her full capacity.




Sir if that other system is secular states of today, then we have already discussed that that system won't be Islamic, Pakistanis can adopt to be a secular if they wish to but they shouldn't call it Islamic. Islamic system is not what theocracy is and what secularism is. Personal laws and State laws cannot be separated under Islamic state. 24:55 and other verses are very clear. Islam is all about one entity and collective efforts there is no room for following Islam at individual level, this very act renders Islam to a religion and not Deen (Social order).



My following post is for people who can think beyond the perceived beliefs and have courage to question the man written history.

Jesus (Peace be upon him) is not coming back. He had a strong army in his times (as against to what we are normally made to believe), and has already dominated his opponents 61:14. This whole chapter 61 needs to be read to understand the importance of mentioning of Jesus and his army.

Mahdi is a fictional character created to raise insurgencies and further agenda of intrigues, many Mahdi have already come

Why are you helping him derail a non-serious thread?

 

[I.R.A]

And sir, those having lived all their lives part I can't agree with. Jinnah returned to win us our freedom.

Jinnah's circumstances and environment he operated in were totally different. There is no fear of other overwhelming majority that would curb the representation of Muslims in government and curtail their freedom. Jinnah's crowd was charged up, motivated with a clear aim and goal............ today we are looking at dead lazy masses, the only thing that motivates them are their insecurities and their wish to overcome their frustrations by lynching someone.

Why are you helping him derail a non-serious thread?

I don't see any harm in having a serious debate yar? It's like youngsters can enjoy their hip hop and we babas can sit on side and discuss politics. Our favorite pass time. Relax.

 

[Zibago]

Arey bhai woh to thek hai, i am talking about real gay people you might see on the streets i hope you don't have anything against them.

If it exists in nature its natural if it doesnot exist in nature its un-natural simple

Our society is not only warped but hypocritical, "hain yeh kaway aur bany phirty hain More" ................. the only liberal thoughts that can change Pakistan would have to be from people who live and stay their whole lives in Pakistan

OSPs would go crazy and confused if they ever really try bringing their (borrowed) ideas to Pakistan, bura nai manana par tum desi sahab logo ko thook lagany k liay Pakistanio ko ziada mehnat nai karni parti.

Sab sey ziyada daish mein osp,s hi gayein hein Pakistanio sey bhi ziyada
OSP,s ki khayali duniya ka haqiqat sey taluk nahi sarey osp baboons kehtey hain Pakistani tax nahi detey jo yahan rehta hy usko yahan ka nizam samajh ata hy

@Moonlight @The Sandman @Hell hound

Poverty is the reason due to several combination factors and one of them is conservative-dominated policy.

Dont blame poverty for extremism i dont see slum dwellers blowing themselves up
Blame the real culprit ingrained extremism of our society

 

[WAJsal]

I don't see any harm in having a serious debate yar? It's like youngsters can enjoy their hip hop and we babas can sit on side and discuss politics. Our favorite pass time. Relax.

Baba jey it would be fine if people were issuing fatwas, take this post for example:

@Jungibaaz

Sir ji, you are wrong and @Zarvan is correct.

Secularism replaces Allah's sovereignty over all matters with a man or group of men and that is outright Shirk. Masterstroke by Satan but some utterly fail to see that.

Secularism is anti-Deen
Liberalism is anti-religion

If you can't understand that then what more can one say really.

Btw, is Satan a friend or foe according to you?

A total misunderstanding.

This is the reason PDF admins don't allow religious discussion.

 

[I.R.A]

Yes masair .......... but your ideas would get us beaten someday.

Sab sey ziyada daish mein osp,s hi gayein hein Pakistanio sey bhi ziyada
OSP,s ki khayali duniya ka haqiqat sey taluk nahi sarey osp baboons kehtey hain Pakistani tax nahi detey jo yahan rehta hy usko yahan ka nizam samajh ata hy

Egjacktly. Nothing is going to change unless it is an in house movement.