Things Anyone Who’s A Liberal In Pakistan Can Completely Understand

[Verve]

The more important question is why did their science take off and Muslim scientists became nothing?
The answer is that the "conservatives" in Muslim societies started to make everything haram to study and started telling them that the only knowledge they need is in the Quran.

Proof of this is the madrasas in Pakistan that are pumping out wannabe Taliban.

Failure of education system over centuries. Kings were more concerned with themselves and their grandeur ..

It happens, and it is happening with the current Prussian borrowed/based schooling system that industrialists imposed. Why is there so much unemployment amongst the graduates of Western universities? This education system is failing too.

Islamic Golden Age the intellectuals questioned their religion to find their answers

How did they question their religion to find their answers? That statement doesn't make sense ... Does one have to doubt their belief in Allah to make a scientific discovery?

 

[Rusty]

Failure of education system over centuries. Kings were more concerned with themselves and their grandeur ..

It happens, and it is happening with the current Prussian borrowed/based schooling system that industrialists imposed. Why is there so much unemployment amongst the graduates of Western universities? This education system is failing too.

For sure, there was institutionalized failures, but again, look at Europe.
During the Roman times when they were open minded and not dogmatic, they had the best science.
Then the Christian dark ages were when they became Christian and closed themselves from the rest of the world.
Then the renascence happened, where they started to question the church and got away from religion. That was when they produced the best science and arts.

Muslims went the other way, we were open minded and accepted all knowledge, then the mullah's started saying everything was haram so our society stopped learning from others. 800 years later, here we are. The poorest, most backwards and regressive countries in the world are Muslim.

 

[Verve]

For sure, there was institutionalized failures, but again, look at Europe.
During the Roman times when they were open minded and not dogmatic, they had the best science.
Then the Christian dark ages were when they became Christian and closed themselves from the rest of the world.
Then the renascence happened, where they started to question the church and got away from religion. That was when they produced the best science and arts.

Muslims went the other way, we were open minded and accepted all knowledge, then the mullah's started saying everything was haram so our society stopped learning from others. 800 years later, here we are. The poorest, most backwards and regressive countries in the world are Muslim.

Knowledge transferred from muslims to europeans. It happens. Dynasties and empires fall. Europe's run is still not as long as the run of muslim dynasties in education and scientific discoveries. Within Islam's Golden Age, transfer of knowledge hub from Iraq to Spain happened as well. Then it was Spain to rest of Europe.

Throughout time, some tribes/regions had more knowledge than others and then it flipped and so on. Not a big deal. What you are saying is itty gritty stuff. Main thing is that knowledge didn't stop and last century has been the fastest in this regard - end of times nearing.

The issue again was not of conservatism. It is poor education that lead to lack of observation and lack of observation leads to no further discoveries. Europeans learnt the observation part from muslims along with the knowledge already present and took it forward. Again, no big deal.

We do not need their liberal secular system to educate our nation to come up to their level and beyond.

And we have example of what a revamped education system does in Pakistan. Look at the universities and research institutes opened during Musharaf's time ... and look at what kind of things they are producing now for our defence industry. After all, majority studying/working their are muslims, yes?

Western imperialism destroyed the whatever leftover education system the muslims had. That's where the focus should be on. To blame the conservatism for lack of education in muslim worlds is wrong. Who is to be blamed in Pakistan? The ruling elite and feudal lords who uses and manipulates the illiterate or the conservatives?

 

[TheLahoriGuy]

@Verve
Sounds to me like you're more against a corrupt society than anything else. Appreciable obviously. Wouldn't care whatever (liberal or conservative) system is in effect , a society with no corruption should be the goal for us right now. As for the interest based banking system , we all know changing it isn't possible. Globalization has made it impossible and we can either go with the system or get crushed between the wheels because we as a nation aren't strong enough to introduce international reforms of this level. But the need for liberalism lies on a communal and public level, to make sure that everyones rights are protected and no one is treated differently and no one should be under prosecution to voice their opinion.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Incoming triggered mullah's (im late so they've already come but im not not bothered to check 16 pages of a pdf thread filled with mullah's)

7. You also just want to have sex all the time. Tauba taubaaaa

Yes I do.

 

[haviZsultan]

For sure, there was institutionalized failures, but again, look at Europe.
During the Roman times when they were open minded and not dogmatic, they had the best science.
Then the Christian dark ages were when they became Christian and closed themselves from the rest of the world.
Then the renascence happened, where they started to question the church and got away from religion. That was when they produced the best science and arts.

Muslims went the other way, we were open minded and accepted all knowledge, then the mullah's started saying everything was haram so our society stopped learning from others. 800 years later, here we are. The poorest, most backwards and regressive countries in the world are Muslim.

I don't think that moving away from religion automatically brings progress. The rest of your points are correct. Iqbal linked the fall of the caliphate to the fall of ijtehad. A process where everyone would express his opinion, from hindu to whatever without the belief that he was correct.

The problem is muslims in the world today as proven by the Mashal Khan incident and countless others are unwilling to hear the points of others and their beliefs. Even what is haram and not is and should be open to debate. Because each sect has a different interpretation of what may be haram. Only by open discussion with each other can we learn from others. Most of all it is the power of humankind to adopt their own view and thinking that makes us human. By being subjected to differences in opinion and opposing views we can develop our own opinion. The relation between God and man is the same thing. Islam does not need an intermediary between God and man (ie the mullah) the human mind is developed enough to judge how to and how little to follow religion in his own way.

Allah himself said:
there is no compulsion in religion.

 

[Verve]

@Verve
Sounds to me like you're more against a corrupt society than anything else. Appreciable obviously. Wouldn't care whatever (liberal or conservative) system is in effect , a society with no corruption should be the goal for us right now. As for the interest based banking system , we all know changing it isn't possible. Globalization has made it impossible and we can either go with the system or get crushed between the wheels because we as a nation aren't strong enough to introduce international reforms of this level. But the need for liberalism lies on a communal and public level, to make sure that everyones rights are protected and no one is treated differently and no one should be under prosecution to voice their opinion.

I'm again persecution and for giving people a fair chance to improve their lives.

Poverty is the breeding ground for rebellion and extremism of all kinds. Stressed and crushed under poverty folk are easily brainwash and then used. Until poverty problem is tackled, it is not going to get better as poor are getting hammered from all directions and don't have the energy or the right mindset to even think of the systems. And we with full stomachs here are debating it all.

Interest free economy will come. Perhaps the global currency bubble I mentioned earlier will burst first.

As for protection of all and their rights in constitution, we don't need to look at anything other than Islam. As for who protects the rights, it is us Muslims who should be standing up against wrong and for the right.

No one has the right to kill anyone and no one has the right to insult and hurt the sentiments of others and spread fitna and fassad. All such people should be stopped, with force if necessary.

 

[WAJsal]

Gay

Aren't gay's human? dude come on. Please elaborate on this:

Gay and Lesbian crap

What crap? It's a natural thing, is it not?

And man why does Zarvan always end up in such haram threads? @Hell hound

So what you are saying is that liberalism is just a 'state of mind' by the 'looking forward towards progression'!?

Tu neykon sey kasam khaey hai? enjoy a chill thread don't ruin a non-serious thread by making it one.
And what did i say about refraining from religious discussions?

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

I have been on this forums since about 2011-2012 and in that time I went from being a classical conservative who believed that the state should be run by Islamic "values" to a liberal who is now convinced that secularism is the only way to go.

Why the change? Simple, there is no successful country that is run by a theology. All theological states fail due to dogma and inability to adapt to the times.

My only interest is to have Pakistan survive into the future as a modern state that is on par with the west. That dream is impossible if we create a theocracy.

Look at Pakistan's own history, Pakistan was booming when it was secular, and it went bust when the Mullahs got power.

People often confuse secularism with atheism and they think secularism is alien to Islam which is completely wrong We have many secular principles which are compatible with Islamic principles with exception of few stuffs like freedom of immoral sex, gambling etc which are again individual choices as no one will force people to drink or sleep with others if they don't want it. Islam is not the problem but actual problems are those Muslims who are intolerant and bigot who are trying to make Islam very harsh for themselves and for others

 

[M. Sarmad]

Go back a few centuries ... and then a few more ... where did they go to learn sciences etc ... they gained power through knowledge gained from muslim lands!

The issue again was not of conservatism.

Islamic history is a stage on which two fundamentally opposed intellectual forces have been struggling for pre-eminence — a dynamic, scientific rationalism (Rationalists) pitted against a reactionary, obscurantist gnosticism (Traditionalists)....

The Mu'tazila (Rationalists) had a tremendous impact on the Muslim world ... The Abbasid Caliph Mamun (a Mu'tazila himself) greatly patronized them . The House of Wisdom (Arabic : Bayt al-Hikma) was a library, translation institute and school established in Abbasid-era Baghdad, Iraq. It is considered to have been a major intellectual center during the Islamic Golden Age. The House of Wisdom was founded by Caliph Harun al-Rashid (reigned 786–809) and culminated under his son al-Ma'mun (reigned 813–833) who is credited with its formal institution ....

During the reign of al-Ma'mun, astronomical observatories were set up, and the House was an unrivaled center for the study of humanities and for science in medieval Islam, including mathematics, astronomy, medicine, alchemy and chemistry, zoology and geography and cartography. Drawing on Indian, Greek, and Persian texts, the scholars accumulated a great collection of world knowledge, and built on it through their own discoveries. By the middle of the ninth century, the House of Wisdom was the largest repository of books in the world

This house gave to the world people like Ibn e Haitham (the first true scientist), Mathematicians like Khawarzimi, Philosophers like Kindi, Physicists like Al Jazari, Physicians like Hunain, Astronomers like Sind Ibn e Ali and the list is very long ... Al Ma'mun, al Mu'tasim, and al Wathiq followed the sect of Mu'tazili, which supported mind-broadness and scientific inquiry, until the time of al-Mutawakkil who endorsed a more literal interpretation of the Qur'an and Hadith. The caliph was not interested in science and moved away from rationalism, seeing the spread of Greek philosophy as anti-Islamic .... Traditionalists had won ... Mutazila were branded heretics . They were persecuted, their books burnt ... A great rationalist movement in Islam had met its unfortunate end !!


Then came the Asharites who were neither traditionalists nor rationalists, they claimed to be the people who followed the middle path ... the greatest of them was Imam Ghazali; the second most influential Muslim in Islamic History, after prophet Muhammad pbuh (though one can argue that he was not an Asharite) .. And his greatest opponent was Ibn e Rushd; the Rationalist ...


Unlike traditionalists, Ghazali didn`t believe that Islam was anti science .. And unlike rationalists, he rejected all non Muslim philosophies (sciences) ...


Ghazali came to the conclusion that : “But to all of them (Philosophies/sciences), despite the multiplicity of their categories, cleaves the stigma of unbelief and godlessness.” (McCarthy,Freedom and Fulfillment 70)

The implications of this skepticism are quite far reaching when looking at the fundamentals of religious teachings in the context of the explosion of scientific knowledge in the modern era .



German orientalist Eduard Sachau rightly blamed the theology of Ash'ari and its biggest defender Ghazali specifically for the decline of Islamic science starting in the tenth century, stating that the two clerics were the only block to the Muslim world becoming a nation of "Galileos, Keplers and Newtons." ........


On the other hand, Ibn e Rushd , a prominent Maliki jurist and the chief opponent of Ghazali`s philosophy, could not inspire his fellow muslims much, but he had a great impact on Western European circles ... So much that he has been described as the "founding father of secular thought in Western Europe" ... And thanks to him, seeds of renaissance were sown in Europe.

So, whenever you talk about those great Muslim philosophers and scientists of the past who helped Europe come out of dark ages, please do remember that they weren't "conservatives" or traditionalists. They were great liberals and rationalists of their times who were branded heretics by the orthodox Muslims.

 

[Hell hound]

What crap? It's a natural thing, is it not?

And man why does Zarvan always end up in such haram threads? @Hell hound

because few of my friends(@The Sandman @Divergent1 @MarvellousThunder@PDC ) don't like a thread without some mirach masala so they tagged him and i must admit i enjoy his presence in my threads

 

[Verve]

And what did i say about refraining from religious discussions?

So Liberalism is a religion all of a sudden and can't be discussed!? And what's your bone with me anyways? Why the bias eh?

& Perhaps you'd like to tell @Horus the same. See his post below.

And perhaps you'd also like to teach some members manners who enjoy mocking other members at any given opportunity. This thread is full of such mockery.

And is this the section for 'non-serious' (aka piss-take) thread?

Pakistani liberals aren't liberals, they are extremists of a reactionary sort.

Islamic history is a stage on which two fundamentally opposed intellectual forces have been struggling for pre-eminence — a dynamic, scientific rationalism (Rationalists) pitted against a reactionary, obscurantist gnosticism (Traditionalists)....

The Mu'tazila (Rationalists) had a tremendous impact on the Muslim world ... The Abbasid Caliph Mamun (a Mu'tazila himself) greatly patronized them . The House of Wisdom (Arabic : Bayt al-Hikma) was a library, translation institute and school established in Abbasid-era Baghdad, Iraq. It is considered to have been a major intellectual center during the Islamic Golden Age. The House of Wisdom was founded by Caliph Harun al-Rashid (reigned 786–809) and culminated under his son al-Ma'mun (reigned 813–833) who is credited with its formal institution ....

During the reign of al-Ma'mun, astronomical observatories were set up, and the House was an unrivaled center for the study of humanities and for science in medieval Islam, including mathematics, astronomy, medicine, alchemy and chemistry, zoology and geography and cartography. Drawing on Indian, Greek, and Persian texts, the scholars accumulated a great collection of world knowledge, and built on it through their own discoveries. By the middle of the ninth century, the House of Wisdom was the largest repository of books in the world

This house gave to the world people like Ibn e Haitham (the first true scientist), Mathematicians like Khawarzimi, Philosophers like Kindi, Physicists like Al Jazari, Physicians like Hunain, Astronomers like Sind Ibn e Ali and the list is very long ... Al Ma'mun, al Mu'tasim, and al Wathiq followed the sect of Mu'tazili, which supported mind-broadness and scientific inquiry, until the time of al-Mutawakkil who endorsed a more literal interpretation of the Qur'an and Hadith. The caliph was not interested in science and moved away from rationalism, seeing the spread of Greek philosophy as anti-Islamic .... Traditionalists had won ... Mutazila were branded heretics . They were persecuted, their books burnt ... A great rationalist movement in Islam had met its unfortunate end !!


Then came the Asharites who were neither traditionalists nor rationalists, they claimed to be the people who followed the middle path ... the greatest of them was Imam Ghazali; the second most influential Muslim in Islamic History, after prophet Muhammad pbuh (though one can argue that he was not an Asharite) .. And his greatest opponent was Ibn e Rushd; the Rationalist ...


Unlike traditionalists, Ghazali didn`t believe that Islam was anti science .. And unlike rationalists, he rejected all non Muslim philosophies (sciences) ...


Ghazali came to the conclusion that : “But to all of them (Philosophies/sciences), despite the multiplicity of their categories, cleaves the stigma of unbelief and godlessness.” (McCarthy,Freedom and Fulfillment 70)

The implications of this skepticism are quite far reaching when looking at the fundamentals of religious teachings in the context of the explosion of scientific knowledge in the modern era .



German orientalist Eduard Sachau rightly blamed the theology of Ash'ari and its biggest defender Ghazali specifically for the decline of Islamic science starting in the tenth century, stating that the two clerics were the only block to the Muslim world becoming a nation of "Galileos, Keplers and Newtons." ........


On the other hand, Ibn e Rushd , a prominent Maliki jurist and the chief opponent of Ghazali`s philosophy, could not inspire his fellow muslims much, but he had a great impact on Western European circles ... So much that he has been described as the "founding father of secular thought in Western Europe" ... And thanks to him, seeds of renaissance were sown in Europe.

So, whenever you talk about those great Muslim philosophers and scientists of the past who helped Europe come out of dark ages, please do remember that they weren't "conservatives" or traditionalists. They were great liberals and rationalists of their times who were branded heretics by the orthodox Muslims.

I said much earlier that the issue always was due to the empire/kingdom. Nothing to do with conservatism. Lots of conservatives are working in science field today.

And a 26yrs old immature caliph obviously was going to mess things up and he did.

 

[Jungibaaz]

A lot of these are true. One of the more notable misunderstandings I've seen among Pakistanis and their perception of liberal ideology includes their thoughts on secularism and free speech. On the former, a lot of Pakistanis fail to draw any distinction between secular societal preferences and atheism, atheism of course is entirely personal. They often conflate the two to be one and the same.

So called "liberals" in Pak are much more extreme in their thought process. They try to ape the west in aspects which realistically cant work here!

Once a group of them pounced on me for criticism of Dr Hoodboy.

Than came a barrage of insults, from education,to culture and even my name "being arabic".

Despite my patient approach, id had enough!

I mean how the fuk does some assh0le calling himself qureshi/arab taunt a baloch of being an arab wannabe?

Or how does some cheeda pseduo intellectual whose sole achievement is that he visited "america" try to diss a man (me) coz he graduated from a recognised and probably one of the best colleges in the country?

And when you confront em, in the same way (which they understand)... boom, they b1tch out.

I myself am pretty liberal!

Im critical of mullahs using religion for politics,hypocrisy of our society,i talk about equality for all, I respect all religion.. im pretty secular (a word alot of people in Pak think, means "atheist").

But so called self proclaimed "pseudo liberals" of Pak are nothing more yhan a bunch of assholes who live in alternate reality!

And here I though you were one of the more liberal posters even on a den of liberal Pakistanis like PDF. Your criticism of some us liberals is fair. Although as you said, in principle if not in name, I think you too are quite liberal at least from what I gather about you from our conversations.

 

[Zarvan]

Aren't gay's human? dude come on. Please elaborate on this:

What crap? It's a natural thing, is it not?

And man why does Zarvan always end up in such haram threads? @Hell hound


Tu neykon sey kasam khaey hai? enjoy a chill thread don't ruin a non-serious thread by making it one.
And what did i say about refraining from religious discussions?

No it's not natural thing that is why ALLAH destroyed entire nation which was involved in this crap. Go study about the nation of Lot

I'm again persecution and for giving people a fair chance to improve their lives.

Poverty is the breeding ground for rebellion and extremism of all kinds. Stressed and crushed under poverty folk are easily brainwash and then used. Until poverty problem is tackled, it is not going to get better as poor are getting hammered from all directions and don't have the energy or the right mindset to even think of the systems. And we with full stomachs here are debating it all.

Interest free economy will come. Perhaps the global currency bubble I mentioned earlier will burst first.

As for protection of all and their rights in constitution, we don't need to look at anything other than Islam. As for who protects the rights, it is us Muslims who should be standing up against wrong and for the right.

No one has the right to kill anyone and no one has the right to insult and hurt the sentiments of others and spread fitna and fassad. All such people should be stopped, with force if necessary.

A massive number of militants come from rich families not poor. Most Al Qaeda leadership comes from rich families and also other militants

A lot of these are true. One of the more notable misunderstandings I've seen among Pakistanis and their perception of liberal ideology includes their thoughts on secularism and free speech. On the former, a lot of Pakistanis fail to draw any distinction between secular societal preferences and atheism, atheism of course is entirely personal. They often conflate the two to be one and the same.



And here I though you were one of the more liberal posters even on a den of liberal Pakistanis like PDF. Your criticism of some us liberals is fair. Although as you said, in principle if not in name, I think you too are quite liberal at least from what I gather about you from our conversations.

No society can be fully secular until they become atheists. The secularism without atheism won't work

I'm not attributing progress in science to a secular society. I'm just pointing the flaws in your argument.
And, yes, there isn't a conflict between Islam and science.
And if we're being honest, in Islamic Golden Age the intellectuals questioned their religion to find their answers. If we are afraid of asking questions, we can never find the answers. We must be allowed to question! When I was young, I asked questions and was told by my teachers not to ask such questions, because Allah likes the faithful. But I'm sure He won't mind small things like questions.

No most of them didn't question there religion. In fact most of the scientists in Muslim history were also religious scholars some were famous for good Qari some famous for Tafseer and some for knowledge of Hadith and Fiqh.

 

[Jungibaaz]

No society can be fully secular until they become atheists. The secularism without atheism won't work

Thanks for your very adequate and timely demonstration of the point I was making about some Pakistanis being unable to make any distinction between secularism and atheism.